Author Topic: Oil from tank is not getting in engine (Read 5103 times)

Jnel · « **on:** March 26, 2018, 02:18:28 PM »

I have a 750 F - 1978 and I'm having an issue that I hope you can help me on. The bike has 15 plus years of... "Not in Service". Sitting! Inside, but nothing done to it. At this point the plugs are out and it turns over with the kick starter - By Hand. It's not frozen up at all, spins easily. Good Sign right? Any way, saw on Dino's channel the part where you are putting oil in the benched engine and I took note because this is exactly where I am right now.

However things didn't go very well. Hooked up all the lines. Put two quarts of oil in the tank and turned it over with the electric starter. turns fine. However, the level in the tank is not going down. Engine sounds the same. no change in the sound. FYI... All the spark plugs are out and there are no carbs on the bike. I don't have a way to check the oil pressure with a pressure gauge like it was shown in the video.

What initially worried me was that I'm not getting a good compression test... only about 80 PSI. However a new tester fixed that. It's up at about 120psi. 1978 I say. Incredible!

Now back to the oil level. I need some ideas to help me narrow this down. Is it the Oil Pump? I need ideas about what to check next. Thank you all for all the help you've given me. I'm so close now.

Regards,
Jnel

kmb69 · « **Reply #1 on:** March 26, 2018, 02:43:18 PM »

Quote from: Jnel on March 26, 2018, 02:18:28 PM

I have a 750 F - 1978 and I'm having an issue that I hope you can help me on. The bike has 15 plus years of... "Not in Service". Sitting! Inside, but nothing done to it. At this point the plugs are out and it turns over with the kick starter - By Hand. It's not frozen up at all, spins easily. Good Sign right? Any way, saw on Dino's channel the part where you are putting oil in the benched engine and I took note because this is exactly where I am right now.

However things didn't go very well. Hooked up all the lines. Put two quarts of oil in the tank and turned it over with the electric starter. turns fine. However, the level in the tank is not going down. Engine sounds the same. no change in the sound. FYI... All the spark plugs are out and there are no carbs on the bike. I don't have a way to check the oil pressure with a pressure gauge like it was shown in the video.

What initially worried me was that I'm not getting a good compression test... only about 80 PSI. However a new tester fixed that. It's up at about 120psi. 1978 I say. Incredible!

Now back to the oil level. I need some ideas to help me narrow this down. Is it the Oil Pump? I need ideas about what to check next. Thank you all for all the help you've given me. I'm so close now.

Regards,
Jnel

The oil level in the tank is not suppose to go down very much.
It's a dry sump engine. The scavenge rotor is 50% bigger than the pressure rotor. If everything is working correctly, the scavenge rotor is returning all the crankcase oil back to the tank. With the plugs out, you should be able to spin the engine with the electric starter and the oil pressure light should go out. If that's happening, it's usually all good.

Jnel · « **Reply #2 on:** March 26, 2018, 02:59:29 PM »

Ok kmb69, that's good info. I don't have any of the lights working at this point, but I can put a tester on the oil pressure sensor and see if it would send a signal to the light telling it to go off. I can check that while the engine is spinning over. I guess the only reason I had any concern was that on the Hack a week series, Dino did the same thing as I'm doing and he noted that the level is going down, meaning that some of that oil has gone down into the bottom of the engine.

Thank You for the help.

754 · « **Reply #3 on:** March 26, 2018, 03:24:46 PM »

It wil, go down.. if you just changed the oil..andctgexsump and filter are empty.
Watch it carefully if you start it, May be a few extra auarts below, and they will come out if it starts running.

Jnel · « **Reply #4 on:** March 26, 2018, 03:31:01 PM »

Cal... I pulled one and I didn't get wet. But I can pull more covers and see what happens. I'll use protection!

754... That's what I was thinking. The oil filter and the sump should have been dry. I put 2 quarts in the tank and I thought I should see it go down some amount.

for what it's worth... On Dino's video, you could hear the change in the sound of engine turning over when the oil got into the system.

Thank you guys.

Jnel · « **Reply #5 on:** March 26, 2018, 03:36:12 PM »

754 BTW... that frame kit worked out pretty good!

Thank you!

JNel

seanbarney41 · « **Reply #6 on:** March 26, 2018, 04:20:58 PM »

Quote from: calj737 on March 26, 2018, 03:05:24 PM

Pull your 1/4 tapped inspection covers. Spin the motor. You should get wet

yeah, with the engine RUNNING. Just cranking the engine may not get much oil to the top end.

Really, I don't see the value of cranking the engine to build oil pressure. It can take a really long time if the engine is fresh and dry or has been sitting for years. Kicking or Cranking a dry engine for two minutes could be just as harmful as running it for 30 seconds. With the engine running and the system is working you will have pressure and oil to the top end in seconds. If not, something is wrong.

ekpent · « **Reply #7 on:** March 26, 2018, 04:28:01 PM »

Put a quart down a tappet cover or two also so some oil runs down to the pan. You have put in two and the correct is around 3.7 qts. Work on other things and when its time to start it up go for it and watch for circulation in the oil tank when it fires and check your pressure light.

754 · « **Reply #8 on:** March 26, 2018, 05:25:08 PM »

Did you drain any oil out ? Before adding 2 qts.
1/4 by squirted into the top should be enough.

Jnel · « **Reply #9 on:** March 27, 2018, 07:22:56 AM »

Quote from: 754 on March 26, 2018, 05:25:08 PM

Did you drain any oil out ? Before adding 2 qts.
1/4 by squirted into the top should be enough.

Before I took the engine out of the frame I drained all the oil removed all the filters. I did the work on the engine which was all outside work I didn't split the cases. The engine was not seized up it spun over very easily with the plugs out and using my hand on the kick starter. So my initial thought was pretty good condition.

So I finished up all the work on the outside put the engine back in the painted frame and I am at that point right now.

Patched up a couple holes on the oil tank seal them up painted it put it in the frame.

Yesterday I replaced all the seals attached the hoses to the motor and the tank and fill the tank with oil.

I did a compression check on the engine and it had good compression.

I check the level of the oil in the tank after my compression checks and the oil level did not go down.

This morning I remove the drain plug from the bottom of the engine and nothing came out. I check the connections to make sure they were in the right location and they are.

So at this point I'm not really sure if I have a problem with an oil pump. Or if it's possible for the oil to be somehow vapor locked.

A drain the oil from the tank this morning and when I remove the fittings from the engine there was a little bit of oil right there where I disconnected him from the engine.

So I know there is oil going through the hose to feed the engine and I know was going in to the bottom of the engine.

I also remove the oil filter from the front of the engine and there was no oil there.

So for some reason the pump is not sending the oil through the engine.

And this is where I stand right now.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

slikwilli420 · « **Reply #10 on:** March 27, 2018, 07:37:05 AM »

Has the oil pump been rebuilt with new seals/springs? Are you sure the oil pump gear was engaging the gear that engages on the clutch basket properly? Pull the pump and submerge in oil and rotate the gear, you should feel resistance and see oil pumping through the system.

Yamahawk · « **Reply #11 on:** March 27, 2018, 07:37:11 AM »

Pull the oil pan if you have not done so already, and check the oil pump screen for blockage. This is common to block up from debris and gunk, and may need cleaning.
Charlie

Jnel · « **Reply #12 on:** March 27, 2018, 08:05:15 AM »

Quote from: Yamahawk on March 27, 2018, 07:37:11 AM

Pull the oil pan if you have not done so already, and check the oil pump screen for blockage. This is common to block up from debris and gunk, and may need cleaning.
Charlie

OK well this is good advice. Looks like I'm going to remove the brand new exhaust I put on and drop the oil Pan and see what I see in their. I should have done this 1st this is my mistake. Live and learn. It's better to do all of this and find the problem now then started up in caused damage.

Thank you guys I appreciate the help.

Jnel

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Jnel · « **Reply #13 on:** March 27, 2018, 12:06:47 PM »

Quote from: Jnel on March 27, 2018, 08:05:15 AM

Quote from: Yamahawk on March 27, 2018, 07:37:11 AM
Pull the oil pan if you have not done so already, and check the oil pump screen for blockage. This is common to block up from debris and gunk, and may need cleaning.
Charlie
OK well this is good advice. Looks like I'm going to remove the brand new exhaust I put on and drop the oil Pan and see what I see in their. I should have done this 1st this is my mistake. Live and learn. It's better to do all of this and find the problem now then started up in caused damage.

Thank you guys I appreciate the help.

Jnel

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Oil pump is out. No blockage on the screen. On the bottom of the pan I did see some shinny pieces of aluminum, but not a great deal of debris. Turning the gear by hand, I can feel the resistance that its creating, but I have no idea if it's the right amount of resistance.

I've watched a video to help me inspect the clearances inside, so that is the next step for me.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Jnel · « **Reply #14 on:** March 27, 2018, 01:59:05 PM »

Has anyone got an idea about bench testing this oil pump. After looking at the inside, I don't see anything that is worn or out of tolerance. it seems to be in good shape and with 21,000 miles on it, I would expect it to look like it is... in good condition. The inside of the pump is clean, debris free and it was coated in oil. Old oil I should say. Seems puzzling to me. When the pump is together and I spin it by hand, is makes the sucking sound that I would expect. I'm thinking about looking in another direction. But that direction is not obvious just yet. Honestly, there was not a lot of oil in the pan when I dropped it. And in my previous tests, I pulled the drain plug and got nothing. I don't think that the oil from the tank ever really got into the pan for the pump to pick it up. And.. if you look at the photo of the pan, you can see this is no clean oil, nor was there any evidence of new oil in there.

seanbarney41 · « **Reply #15 on:** March 27, 2018, 02:10:09 PM »

As mentioned earlier, it usually takes a lot of cranking and even more kicking to move any oil through the engine. Some posters report that they have been able to get oil pressure without starting the engine, others were never able to, but pressure came right up quickly as soon as the engine is running. Please revue the service manual description of the oiling system and make sure everything is correct and fire away. And if the oil light does not go off in 10 to 20 seconds for god sake, shut it off. Note that oil does not go from the tank to the pan, it goes from the tank to the pump, to the crank and oil galleries and then drains back to the pan, where it is pumped back to the oil tank.

Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er · « **Reply #16 on:** March 27, 2018, 03:45:18 PM »

Put some oil in the pan!! Pour it in slowly into the #1 or #4 valve adjuster holes in the valve/cam cover. If you have put 2qts in the tank then put the other 1.7qts into the pan from the top end.

Sounds to me like the oil stopper valve is doing it's job by not allowing the oil to drain from the tank into the pan. Once you're sure you have the proper amount then fire it up but just be sure you only let it run for maybe 5 - 10 seconds to get pressure. Oil pressure light goes out and you get noticeable flow squirting into the cam area.

I think your worrying is for nothing. We've all been there.

ekpent · « **Reply #17 on:** March 27, 2018, 03:47:48 PM »

Yep I think your over obsessing about it. When the engine fires up and all mechanicals are in order oil will flow. Of the 30 or so cb750's I have done and brought back I have never had one yet that didn't

You might want to change the o-rings that mount the pump since you have it out now,they are the same size as the ones used for the oil lines to the engine.

Jnel · « **Reply #18 on:** March 27, 2018, 04:17:43 PM »

Ok... This wouldn't be the first time I've obsessed over something. But you've convinced me that I can go forward now. I'll add the oil to the top end and fire it up! If the light doesn't go out in a short time, I'll shut it down.

Thank yo all for the help and support.

Regards,
Jnel

Bodi · « **Reply #19 on:** March 28, 2018, 07:29:50 AM »

For all the paranoia about it the oil pump rarely fails to work, particularly on a 750 where it gets oil gravity fed from the tank. Pump volume is rather small - look at the thickness of the pressure pump rotors - and the filter housing and main gallery have to fill before you can hope to see oil pressure. If you really want to check if it works... cranking or kicking until it has pressure is a waste of time. Remove the oil filter housing. Oil will spurt out of the feed hole beside the threaded centre return hole after not much cranking, the pumo output goes directly to there. The oil will, of course, shoot straight at your disk brake: have something in the way.
After a full drain of the filter and gallery it takes a few seconds to build pressure after starting. This is not easy to avoid, and only in rare cases could cause any damage. Assuming you didn't assemble an engine dry - who would do that? - you will not damage the plain bearings or your cam in those few seconds.

Remcod · « **Reply #20 on:** March 28, 2018, 08:41:26 AM »

After you put oil down the valve cover, put the bike on the side stand and pour oil down the oil plug near the points cover until it takes no more first. Close the plug and put on the main stand and start.

Jnel · « **Reply #21 on:** March 28, 2018, 08:56:13 AM »

Bodi, Remcod... thank you for the advise. I'm replacing the O rings and putting the oil pump back in place and the new gasket for the oil pan today. The carbs are done, so this is next. I'll try to follow the instructions from everyone, play it safe and start it up. See what happens.

Thanks again to everyone.

Jnel

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

ekpent · « **Reply #22 on:** March 28, 2018, 10:31:42 AM »

Whenever I first start a new to me project I leave the cap off the oil tank and have a little flashlight handy. Once it starts I monitor the oil light and take a peek in the tank for circulation/bubbles etc. It will be noticeable quite quickly if all is well.
Sounds like your getting close.

Jnel · « **Reply #23 on:** March 28, 2018, 10:52:55 AM »

Quote from: ekpent on March 28, 2018, 10:31:42 AM

Whenever I first start a new to me project I leave the cap off the oil tank and have a little flashlight handy. Once it starts I monitor the oil light and take a peek in the tank for circulation/bubbles etc. It will be noticeable quite quickly if all is well.
Sounds like your getting close.

Yep... I'll do that for sure. Yes, getting there. I have another week at home before I go back to work. Then gone for a month. I hope hear it just once befor I go.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

754 · « **Reply #24 on:** March 28, 2018, 11:07:04 AM »

It's looking good,, I like the pipe lining up with the footpeg bracket..

Jnel · « **Reply #25 on:** March 28, 2018, 11:38:35 AM »

Quote from: 754 on March 28, 2018, 11:07:04 AM

It's looking good,, I like the pipe lining up with the footpeg bracket..

I know... I got lucky there. But no room for a passenger. That was by design. 🤣

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

ekpent · « **Reply #26 on:** March 28, 2018, 01:36:34 PM »

So the frame,wheels etc look to be a 77-78 F2-F3 model. What year is the engine,is it a matching later F also with a re-paint ?

Jnel · « **Reply #27 on:** March 28, 2018, 02:52:27 PM »

Quote from: ekpent on March 28, 2018, 01:36:34 PM

So the frame,wheels etc look to be a 77-78 F2-F3 model. What year is the engine,is it a matching later F also with a re-paint ?

Yes it's a 1978 F. Everything matches. I've had it a loooong time. Not In the best shape when I started. But it's come a long way.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

ekpent · « **Reply #28 on:** March 28, 2018, 05:03:25 PM »

That was a perfect candidate for the style of bike you are now building. Nice job !

Jnel · « **Reply #29 on:** March 28, 2018, 05:05:33 PM »

Quote from: ekpent on March 28, 2018, 05:03:25 PM

That was a perfect candidate for the style of bike you are now building. Nice job !

Thank you man, I appreciate the comments.
Regards
Jnel

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Jnel · « **Reply #30 on:** April 09, 2018, 11:53:51 AM »

Just an update. I put the pump back together and installed everything. Went well. No problems there.

Put the carbs on and that was interesting. I've attached a couple of photos. Months ago I got a new fuel petcock. Never gave it much thought until now. It has one connection. Seems the bike has two.

That little hose look very important.

Any thoughts on this?

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Yamahawk · « **Reply #31 on:** April 09, 2018, 02:28:34 PM »

Get a tee and hook the 1 out to the 2 hoses...
Charlie

Don R · « **Reply #32 on:** April 09, 2018, 03:19:15 PM »

The bike might not notice unless you use a lot of gas. Long hill, heavy load, full throttle, etc.

seanbarney41 · « **Reply #33 on:** April 09, 2018, 04:07:43 PM »

It won't anyway.

beemerbum · « **Reply #34 on:** April 09, 2018, 05:12:43 PM »

Quote from: Jnel on March 27, 2018, 12:06:47 PM

Quote from: Jnel on March 27, 2018, 08:05:15 AM
Quote from: Yamahawk on March 27, 2018, 07:37:11 AM
Pull the oil pan if you have not done so already, and check the oil pump screen for blockage. This is common to block up from debris and gunk, and may need cleaning.
Charlie
OK well this is good advice. Looks like I'm going to remove the brand new exhaust I put on and drop the oil Pan and see what I see in their. I should have done this 1st this is my mistake. Live and learn. It's better to do all of this and find the problem now then started up in caused damage.

Thank you guys I appreciate the help.

Jnel

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
Oil pump is out. No blockage on the screen. On the bottom of the pan I did see some shinny pieces of aluminum, but not a great deal of debris. Turning the gear by hand, I can feel the resistance that its creating, but I have no idea if it's the right amount of resistance.

I've watched a video to help me inspect the clearances inside, so that is the next step for me.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

For what it's worth, I recently installed a re-conditioned pump from CycleX in a freshly re-built K 4 motor. Oil pressure came up super fast. Worth every penny of $86 for the piece of mind and labor saved taking the thing apart. As always, submerge the unit in oil and turn til no more bubbles appear.

Johnny340 · « **Reply #35 on:** April 09, 2018, 07:49:33 PM »

Nice looking bike!

Jnel · « **Reply #36 on:** April 10, 2018, 05:56:48 PM »

Quote from: Johnny340 on April 09, 2018, 07:49:33 PM

Nice looking bike!

Thank you sir. I'm excited to finish this project. It's been a long road.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

News:

Author Topic: Oil from tank is not getting in engine (Read 5103 times)