Topic: Christ Revealed Documentary Series available for viewing - DONE for now

[Yamahawk]

Glad to know that, brother...
Charlie

[Yamahawk]

Romans is a good Life-Book, where we can learn all about what being 'good' really is. If all we had to do to please God was to be good, then we could all follow along with what He told us in the Ten Commandments, and we'd be good to go.. the Only problem with this... is that nobody EVER has been able to be spotless, blameless, and totally without rebellion to God (which is what sin is). So.. if you like to think that being good will get you a good standing with God, then you have to be Perfect. And as far as I know, there are none but One who could ever approach that. So being perfect, we wouldn't have needed that God send His Son to this place to take the consequences of our rebellion (sin) in death... and Jesus wouldn't have had to do that.

Yep.....I don’t feel, or see biblical evidence, that a just god will forever punish a human being who feels unable to decipher the “ truth” in this world. Biblically, there is mention of a second “ chance” for all those that died without the “knowledge of Christ” coupled with a “1000” year period......another debatable...thing...

I would suppose that we look at God through our own way of understanding. That's understandable. But if God is a "Just" God, as you say, what about looking at a "just" Judge, which is what I think you mean. As God is a Judge, where the Punishment or Reward will be Forever is His Sentence.
Suppose that, 30 years ago, I committed a murder... and, I got away with it, and nobody found out. For the last 30 years, I lived an exemplary Life, and was the most kind, generous, caring, loving person I could be, and everyone who knew me, thought the World of Me....
THEN, the murder was discovered, and I was accused, and the Evidence was overwhelming, and I am found guilty of murder, in the 1st. Degree, by the Jury. The Sentence for my crime is DEATH.
The Judge has now got to pass Judgment upon me... and He is Known to Be a Just Judge. There are many people who come and testify of how great I have been this last 30 years, how many people I have helped, the good I have done, the widows and orphans I have took care of, and the good Person I have become. They cry for my release, as it was 30 YEARS ago that I did the deed of murder...
Would that Judge be a Just Judge, if He let me go, for the murder I committed? Or, would He be bound, by the Laws that He has to Judge under, to Sentence me to Death...?
EDIT: I must state here, that this Judge is full of compassion, and truly loves me as the kind, benevolent, giving, MURDERER that I am... ...just sayin'
Now, suppose that a Man steps forward, and says...
"It Was Me Who did this and I will take his Punishment... Sentence Me to death instead of Charlie..."
This Man, Who stepped forward, had never done anything wrong, He was Spotless, and yet took the Sentence of Death for me.
This Man, is Jesus the Christ, Who did this, for me and all of you. He did it freely, and He did it because He So Loved the World, that those who believed in Him, might have everlasting Life...
Is it such a big thing, to humble ourselves, and accept the gift of Grace, and Life from the One Who came to die in place of us? The One Who Loves us unconditionally, the good man, and the most horrible man on earth, equally? If our pride and arrogance says that I can stand before the Most High God, Who is the Most Just Judge there will ever be, and not need forgiveness for anything I have ever done... then there is nothing left for us than the Judgment that He has... a "Just" Sentence of Death.

Now, for that 'second' chance and the 1,000 years...
It says in 1 Peter 3:18-22that He was in a 'spiritual prison' testifying about God's Grace...so there may be a 'second chance'.
1 Peter 3:18-22
18 For Christ also suffered for sins once for all,[a]
the righteous for the unrighteous,
that He might bring you[c] to God,
after being put to death in the fleshly realm[d]
but made alive in the spiritual realm.[e]
19 In that state[f] He also went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison[g] 20 who in the past were disobedient, when God patiently waited in the days of Noah while an ark was being prepared. In it a few—that is, eight people[h]—were saved through water. 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the pledge of a good conscience toward God) through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. 22 Now that He has gone into heaven, He is at God’s right hand with angels, authorities, and powers subject to Him.

Footnotes: ( These footnotes are from other Manuscripts, from centuries before, or clearer wording, and are included so that there may be a complete understanding of what is said)

[a] 1 Peter 3:18 Other mss read died for sins on our behalf; other mss read died for our sins; other mss read died for sins on your behalf
(b)  1 Peter 3:18 Or the Righteous One in the place of the unrighteous many
[c] 1 Peter 3:18 Other mss read us
[d] 1 Peter 3:18 Or in the flesh
[e] 1 Peter 3:18 Or in the spirit, or in the Spirit
[f] 1 Peter 3:19 Or In whom, or At that time, or In which
[g] 1 Peter 3:19 Perhaps fallen supernatural beings or angels; 2Pt 2:4; Jd 6
[h] 1 Peter 3:20 Lit souls
(i) 1 Peter 3:21 Or the appeal

I appeal to anyone who is reading this dialog, to think about what the One God (as there can be only One) wants for us. He doesn't want to have to sentence us to death for what we have done in our life. He instead, wants us to come to Him, where He stands, with Arms Wide Open, awaiting our return to Him. There, He has the Most Wonderful things planned for all of the Everlasting Life, that He wants to bestow upon each of us... Please consider what He has for each of Us... One Way or the Other.

As far as the 1.000 years...
Here is a link to a book called 'The Parousia' by James Stuart Russell, which is a very interesting read about the 2nd Coming (Parousia) of Jesus Christ...
...and yes, I have read this.

http://www.preteristcentral.com/pdf/pdf%20books/1878_russel_parousia.pdf

Charlie

[MikeSimon]

I am amazed to find a discussion about this subject THAT extensive on a motorcycle forum.
As if we wouldn't have enough motorcycle related issues that divide the participants.

[DurangoCB]

Which type of oil would Jesus prefer? 

[Killer Canary]

I am amazed to find a discussion about this subject THAT extensive on a motorcycle forum.
As if we wouldn't have enough motorcycle related issues that divide the participants.

This discussion won't divide anyone who chooses not to participate in it.
I've witnessed first hand the faint gleam of insanity in the true zealot's eyes.
Not accusing anyone here of insanity, but I'm completely knowledgeable of the indicators.
I got beaten over the head with religion during my formative years so I have no problem leaving Charlie's discussion to Charlie.
Unlike most zealots, I can simply leave others to their own beliefs so this will be my first and last instance of participation in this thread.

[Yamahawk]

Which type of oil would Jesus prefer?

Holy Corn Oil... This is the Oil from the Corns of Holy Men...
Charlie

[Yamahawk]

I am amazed to find a discussion about this subject THAT extensive on a motorcycle forum.
As if we wouldn't have enough motorcycle related issues that divide the participants.

This discussion won't divide anyone who chooses not to participate in it.
I've witnessed first hand the faint gleam of insanity in the true zealot's eyes.
Not accusing anyone here of insanity, but I'm completely knowledgeable of the indicators.
I got beaten over the head with religion during my formative years so I have no problem leaving Charlie's discussion to Charlie.
Unlike most zealots, I can simply leave others to their own beliefs so this will be my first and last instance of participation in this thread.

Hehe hopefully that gleam is the Holy Spirit, not of Insanity... 
I apologize for the person that beat you up with 'religion', as that, as I have stated is Not what Jesus wants. Religion, as has been stated, is a stench in God's nostrils... and Jesus came to heal all that crap... He wants to have a Relationship, not a religion with you. God Bless ya Killer,
Charlie

[DurangoCB]

I see great value in mythologies that deepen a person's spiritual experience of this world.  My father-in-law is what I would call an extremely devout man to the point of zealotry, but he is also a very good man and, for him, it's his faith in Jesus that makes him so.  I do not buy into Christianity or any other religion and cannot imagine ever doing so, but I really enjoy long conversations with my father-in-law (and a few others), which happened most recently when we drove north to purchase my CX500, as an aside. 

I'm not sure why I'm even commenting.  I guess to make the point that someone can think the mythology of the Bible is bull***t while still having respect and even great interest in the role it plays in the spiritual lives of others.  I just wish that everyone who were devoted to any one religion were able to extend the same broad respect and interest to those who practice others.  It would be a much better world if so many otherwise loving people weren't convinced that anyone who disagreed with them were going to Hell. 

[grcamna2]

Can we know for sure that there is only one God and that he really does love us eternally? How can we be sure he won't stop caring like so many religious folks do ??

[jlh3rd]

Romans is a good Life-Book, where we can learn all about what being 'good' really is. If all we had to do to please God was to be good, then we could all follow along with what He told us in the Ten Commandments, and we'd be good to go.. the Only problem with this... is that nobody EVER has been able to be spotless, blameless, and totally without rebellion to God (which is what sin is). So.. if you like to think that being good will get you a good standing with God, then you have to be Perfect. And as far as I know, there are none but One who could ever approach that. So being perfect, we wouldn't have needed that God send His Son to this place to take the consequences of our rebellion (sin) in death... and Jesus wouldn't have had to do that.

Yep.....I don’t feel, or see biblical evidence, that a just god will forever punish a human being who feels unable to decipher the “ truth” in this world. Biblically, there is mention of a second “ chance” for all those that died without the “knowledge of Christ” coupled with a “1000” year period......another debatable...thing...

I would suppose that we look at God through our own way of understanding. That's understandable. But if God is a "Just" God, as you say, what about looking at a "just" Judge, which is what I think you mean. As God is a Judge, where the Punishment or Reward will be Forever is His Sentence.
Suppose that, 30 years ago, I committed a murder... and, I got away with it, and nobody found out. For the last 30 years, I lived an exemplary Life, and was the most kind, generous, caring, loving person I could be, and everyone who knew me, thought the World of Me....
THEN, the murder was discovered, and I was accused, and the Evidence was overwhelming, and I am found guilty of murder, in the 1st. Degree, by the Jury. The Sentence for my crime is DEATH.
The Judge has now got to pass Judgment upon me... and He is Known to Be a Just Judge. There are many people who come and testify of how great I have been this last 30 years, how many people I have helped, the good I have done, the widows and orphans I have took care of, and the good Person I have become. They cry for my release, as it was 30 YEARS ago that I did the deed of murder...
Would that Judge be a Just Judge, if He let me go, for the murder I committed? Or, would He be bound, by the Laws that He has to Judge under, to Sentence me to Death...?
EDIT: I must state here, that this Judge is full of compassion, and truly loves me as the kind, benevolent, giving, MURDERER that I am... ...just sayin'
Now, suppose that a Man steps forward, and says...
"It Was Me Who did this and I will take his Punishment... Sentence Me to death instead of Charlie..."
This Man, Who stepped forward, had never done anything wrong, He was Spotless, and yet took the Sentence of Death for me.
This Man, is Jesus the Christ, Who did this, for me and all of you. He did it freely, and He did it because He So Loved the World, that those who believed in Him, might have everlasting Life...
Is it such a big thing, to humble ourselves, and accept the gift of Grace, and Life from the One Who came to die in place of us? The One Who Loves us unconditionally, the good man, and the most horrible man on earth, equally? If our pride and arrogance says that I can stand before the Most High God, Who is the Most Just Judge there will ever be, and not need forgiveness for anything I have ever done... then there is nothing left for us than the Judgment that He has... a "Just" Sentence of Death.

Now, for that 'second' chance and the 1,000 years...
It says in 1 Peter 3:18-22that He was in a 'spiritual prison' testifying about God's Grace...so there may be a 'second chance'.
1 Peter 3:18-22
18 For Christ also suffered for sins once for all,[a]
the righteous for the unrighteous,
that He might bring you[c] to God,
after being put to death in the fleshly realm[d]
but made alive in the spiritual realm.[e]
19 In that state[f] He also went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison[g] 20 who in the past were disobedient, when God patiently waited in the days of Noah while an ark was being prepared. In it a few—that is, eight people[h]—were saved through water. 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the pledge of a good conscience toward God) through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. 22 Now that He has gone into heaven, He is at God’s right hand with angels, authorities, and powers subject to Him.

Footnotes: ( These footnotes are from other Manuscripts, from centuries before, or clearer wording, and are included so that there may be a complete understanding of what is said)

[a] 1 Peter 3:18 Other mss read died for sins on our behalf; other mss read died for our sins; other mss read died for sins on your behalf
(b)  1 Peter 3:18 Or the Righteous One in the place of the unrighteous many
[c] 1 Peter 3:18 Other mss read us
[d] 1 Peter 3:18 Or in the flesh
[e] 1 Peter 3:18 Or in the spirit, or in the Spirit
[f] 1 Peter 3:19 Or In whom, or At that time, or In which
[g] 1 Peter 3:19 Perhaps fallen supernatural beings or angels; 2Pt 2:4; Jd 6
[h] 1 Peter 3:20 Lit souls
(i) 1 Peter 3:21 Or the appeal

I appeal to anyone who is reading this dialog, to think about what the One God (as there can be only One) wants for us. He doesn't want to have to sentence us to death for what we have done in our life. He instead, wants us to come to Him, where He stands, with Arms Wide Open, awaiting our return to Him. There, He has the Most Wonderful things planned for all of the Everlasting Life, that He wants to bestow upon each of us... Please consider what He has for each of Us... One Way or the Other.

As far as the 1.000 years...
Here is a link to a book called 'The Parousia' by James Stuart Russell, which is a very interesting read about the 2nd Coming (Parousia) of Jesus Christ...
...and yes, I have read this.

http://www.preteristcentral.com/pdf/pdf%20books/1878_russel_parousia.pdf

Charlie

I wish I could isolate quotes like ya’ll do , I don’t know how on here...anyway

My point is that there have been/ are/ and will be people who have never been exposed to or been able to decipher what is the correct “ way” .
Even me saying this becomes a debate point with others....highly understandable is my point. The confusion created by countless numbers of other religions, experts contradicting experts, Gnostics bad...no Gnostics good.....it goes on and on...
     Who can blame anyone for throwing their hands up and saying, to heck with it. What just god would ever condemn anyone for not knowing the truth. What just god would ever eternally condemn someone who never had even an opportunity to be introduced to the truth.....A human being would have to trust the “man” telling him this is the truth , ...and we all know men lie......
   I understand the paying of a penalty, that is not what I’m talking about. You may say to someone that this Bible is the truth, but you’re just a man. Who has to believe you?...just because it’s you ?
    No man has ever caused me to form my belief. The actions of man have influenced my life but my conviction is my own. No one had to preach to me. It is mine alone.
     There are some religions that say my way or the highway. Some men preach you have to give your life to Jesus ,as the Bible says, or suffer eternal punishment ( death). My point is ; these are men saying this to others, and men lie! If god wants me to believe a man spouting that he’s the right man to believe, he’d better come down and tell me this is the guy.
     So, I lean toward believing the biblical interpretation of a second resurrection of all those who never had the chance to be introduced to the right way as taught by Jesus and the Bible. This is a fair way to treat the ones you supposedly love .
If I’m wrong about the way I’ve formed my beliefs, I hope this second chance is ,in fact, accurate. I would love to hear the truth from the person that I know would never lie and be absolutely honest....someone I could and would trust emphatically.
Supposedly some are so wicked that they would reject this teaching from the one person they know is ,indeed, the true god. So shall they pay the final price.
     Therefore, all those who have ever lived, living, and to be born, who never figured out or were exposed to the absolute truth, will be given a second chance by the one true person ( god, Jesus, take your pick).
No man on this earth is the judge, or to judge. No one knows what’s in my heart, or has walked in my shoes , but me....and god.

[jlh3rd]

I worked with a woman in my job and she was a professed Christian. She was a good person,basically, but she let you know she was a follower of Christ. We got into a discussion one time about me saying Jesus Christ at a frustrating incident at work. She proceeded to inform me that that was a violation of the third commandment. So I asked, what day of the week did she go to church. She said ,well the sabbath, Sunday. I laughed and said well, sorry to inform you but the sabbath is Saturday. I said even the calendar shows Sunday as the first day of the week, not the seventh. The look in her face was ....well....interesting.
   No, I’m not getting into the sat/ sun thing , no, I’m not preaching. No ,I’m not judging anyone who goes on sat or sun...that not my job and not my business. It illustrates my point as to the confusion that can exist. She didn’t know she’s being hypocritical and we’re still friends ,But it did shut the preaching down.
You can say it’s Sat., you can say it’s Sun., you can even say it doesn’t matter. The bottom line is that you’re just a man...and men lie...

[Yamahawk]

Amen (SO Be It) and Amen (So Be It). I understand your position and your pretty close to the Truth. God Is a Just God... and those who have never heard of Him, will get a chance I believe. Now, the Rest of Us who Have Heard of Him, but rejected Him as the Truth... well, that's another matter. I'm not God... Thank God for that, as my flawed views would definitely  lead to errors in judgment lol. But.. God is Never in Error, and everything He does or has done, is correct.
Now, that woman you worked with is a person the apostle Paul would call a weak or baby Christian... usually, weak Christians think they are strong ones, and they say 'touch not', 'taste not', 'do not'... where Paul says its ok if it isn't called a 'sin' in the Bible. Permissible means you can, but it has conditions where you don't cause anyone to stumble in their Faith by doing such things. And Jesus is the LORD of the Sabbath, we as Christians do not observe the Sabbath, as it is a Jewish thing. We aren't Jewish...
Now, I am a man, and I can lie... But God Never Lies. So, His Word is the Truth, and if I quote that, I can be assured that it is Truth. Some feel that the Bible has been adulterated, and 'changed'. But do the homework, and the paper (or papyrus) trail leads straight back to the Word given.
There are men out there who have re-written the Bible for their own religions. I have read The Aquarian Gospel of Levi... which was written about the same time as the Book of Mormon, in the early 1820's. It is a lie, but it quotes certain biblical men as having said things... like one, for example, the Apostles are asking Jesus what the Kingdom of God is like, and He says it is like a harpsichord... now, why would this be a lie...?
Because the harpsichord was invented in the 13th or 15th century, I can't remember, but the thing is.. neither the apostles nor Jesus would have ever seen one lol. Anyway, I really like talking about what I have read, and studied, and experienced. So thanks for the opportunity to do so.
Charlie

[Yamahawk]

I see great value in mythologies that deepen a person's spiritual experience of this world.  My father-in-law is what I would call an extremely devout man to the point of zealotry, but he is also a very good man and, for him, it's his faith in Jesus that makes him so.  I do not buy into Christianity or any other religion and cannot imagine ever doing so, but I really enjoy long conversations with my father-in-law (and a few others), which happened most recently when we drove north to purchase my CX500, as an aside. 

I'm not sure why I'm even commenting.  I guess to make the point that someone can think the mythology of the Bible is bull***t while still having respect and even great interest in the role it plays in the spiritual lives of others.  I just wish that everyone who were devoted to any one religion were able to extend the same broad respect and interest to those who practice others.  It would be a much better world if so many otherwise loving people weren't convinced that anyone who disagreed with them were going to Hell.

I think it's commendable that you think that something that is a myth can help so many, and not talk bad about it. Kudos to you, sir!
I had a friend who thought the Bible was Christian Mythology... he couldn't discern that it was really history, and pretty accurate history, of what happened to the nation of Israel, and the descendants of Abraham. These were real people, they lived, they died, and their history was written down. Now the O.T. and N.T. are history, that has been corroborated by archaeology and discoveries as to where things were located, by actual descriptions translated from the Hebrew text. Take Sodom and Gomorrah, for example. They found the ruins and the Brimstone that destroyed their cities. Matter of fact, they have determined that that rain of fire that destroyed them, came from a rare asteroid collision in what would now be Germany or Austria, and it ejected the rain of fire with extreme accuracy right where those two cities were... The odds of that happening the way it did, are astronomical lol...
The 'mythical tribe of the Hittites' was thought of as a myth by some, until there was recently found some type of cuneiform tablet, that was translated and referenced that tribe. The pool of Siloam was actually found in 2012 by an archaeologist who literally followed where the Bible said it was, and started digging... and found a stairway descending... to a pool.
As far as those who told you that if you disagree with them, you're going to hell, well... they ain't God either, so they have no right to tell you that. But.. if I knew there was a truck speeding in your direction, and was going to Kill you, how much would I have to hate you not to tell you about it...
Again, religion isn't a God thing, it is a man thing, and therefore full of crap... The God Thing is a Relationship. How can you have a relationship with something that isn't real? A piece of wood or stone or metal isn't a Living Being so you can't have a relationship with that... and That is Religion with a capital R.
By the way, my friend who didn't believe that the Bible is true, is Dead now... he passed away several years ago. But I guarantee you One Thing... He Knows the Truth Now. As we will All Know one Day. I hope you try to seek that Truth, brother, for there is a Truck speeding in your direction, and I am telling you about it Right Now.
Charlie

[Yamahawk]

Can we know for sure that there is only one God and that he really does love us eternally? How can we be sure he won't stop caring like so many religious folks do ??

Well, that is a good question, as no one recently has seen God this side of the grave... except for a little 4 year old boy with the last name Burpo...
There can be only One God Who created this universe... or, if you like to believe there is no god, and this universe just 'happened' to be created somehow.
If there is a God Who created all things, in such intricate detail, He would have to have done it with great care... and love. No Creator would create something of such beauty and sheer awesomeness as this universe, without loving the creation of it. Being the He is eternal, that love would have to be eternal, as well.
As far as Him stopping caring for us, I do not think He is capable of doing that, unlike many religious folks. The reason I say this, is because the Great Care He displayed in Creation, would have to be with a Passion for His creation that would never wane or become a tedious thing, like it could be from 'religious' folks, who may give up on you or me. I know that He tells us each day, just by the creation we are a part of.
Ever see Yosemite National Park, or Yellowstone, or Mt.Fuji, or any of the wonders there are in this world? How about the photographs of Nebulae or galaxies and stars from the Hubble telescope? These are mind blowing to say the least. And it is said, that God holds the universe in the palm of His hand... how cool is that. If He cares for this universe, and He created us to live on this one, small planet in this vast creation, how much must He care and love each of us? God bless you Bill, for He loves you very much.
Charlie

[jlh3rd]

Burpo, yep...that made an impression on me...good book, good movie.
So, I wanna be clear. It’s good your enthusiastic about your belief. I read nothing , my opinion, that was offensive in your statements and didn’t think you were preaching. As a matter of fact, your historical knowledge seems extensive and would be an interesting conversation.
    Religious “ discussions “ can be a minefield..

[Yamahawk]

Burpo, yep...that made an impression on me...

Me too...
Charlie

[Yamahawk]

Can we know for sure that there is only one God and that he really does love us eternally? How can we be sure he won't stop caring like so many religious folks do ??

"And God said, "I will place loving, obedient and caring wives in all corners of the Earth for my beloved Sons".

Then God made the Earth round, and laughed. And laughed. And laughed.

Enough said. 

Bwaaaahahaha yep..
but even if the Earth is flat, like so claim, it is Still round lol...
Charlie

[BobR]

 Aside from the lack of any evidence of god in the first place what gets me is if one did exist it would be either not omnipotent or not benevolent (loving and caring ) Clearly it couldnt be both. Bob

[jlh3rd]

Can we know for sure that there is only one God and that he really does love us eternally? How can we be sure he won't stop caring like so many religious folks do ??

"And God said, "I will place loving, obedient and caring wives in all corners of the Earth for my beloved Sons".

Then God made the Earth round, and laughed. And laughed. And laughed.

Enough said. 

Bwaaaahahaha yep..
but even if the Earth is flat, like so claim, it is Still round lol...
Charlie

Yep, I believe He has a sense of humor........

Aside from the lack of any evidence of god in the first place what gets me is if one did exist it would be either not omnipotent or not benevolent (loving and caring ) Clearly it couldnt be both. Bob

It would be hard to believe there could be a perfect “ dictator “ , which in essence is what a belief in a god boils down to. But I’m open to the possibility, and hope/ believe there is. There has to be some final justice for all the evil the world has seen,and sees.
    Evidence can be fleeting, hidden, personal, or viewed in others or their life. No major miracles in my life, but, gotta tell ya, there have been some interesting outcomes that went beyond mere coincidental occurrences.

[Yamahawk]

Aside from the lack of any evidence of god in the first place what gets me is if one did exist it would be either not omnipotent or not benevolent (loving and caring ) Clearly it couldnt be both. Bob

Well Bob, let's sit back and examine the reasoning used in your deduction about God. First, you are supposing 'IF' there is a god... so you aren't sure. Then, your deduction is made that 'IF' there is a god, 'IT' would be either not omnipotent or not benevolent (loving and caring). Then, you quantify this by saying 'Clearly it couldn't be both.'
Now...  you are clearly using 'human' reasoning to make this deduction about God... and Our thoughts and His thoughts are not the same. It would be like a mollusk saying what a human would think or say... not even close actually from the degree of thought that God is capable of compared to our thoughts. So, you are deducing what God would Be, by your own finite reasoning, versus an Omnipotent, Omniscient, Being that can create something called our Universe... and clearly, those two thoughts are so far apart, that they cannot even be compared to each other.  I say this, as we filter things we think about through our own limited reasoning. God, however, isn't limited in His reasoning at all...
The Bible states that God's thoughts are higher than ours.
Here is what Isaiah 55:8-9 says about that.
Isaiah 55:8, 9 (NIV) "For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD. 9 "As the heavens are
higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my
thoughts than your thoughts."
I am using this as an example of how our reasoning about God is quite limited. We have No Idea what He thinks, or how He reasons. So, there is every possibility that our reasoning isn't correct when it comes to God's attributes.
Charlie

[BobR]

Aside from the lack of any evidence of god in the first place what gets me is if one did exist it would be either not omnipotent or not benevolent (loving and caring ) Clearly it couldnt be both. Bob

Well Bob, let's sit back and examine the reasoning used in your deduction about God. First, you are supposing 'IF' there is a god... so you aren't sure. Then, your deduction is made that 'IF' there is a god, 'IT' would be either not omnipotent or not benevolent (loving and caring). Then, you quantify this by saying 'Clearly it couldn't be both.'
Now...  you are clearly using 'human' reasoning to make this deduction about God... and Our thoughts and His thoughts are not the same. It would be like a mollusk saying what a human would think or say... not even close actually from the degree of thought that God is capable of compared to our thoughts. So, you are deducing what God would Be, by your own finite reasoning, versus an Omnipotent, Omniscient, Being that can create something called our Universe... and clearly, those two thoughts are so far apart, that they cannot even be compared to each other.  I say this, as we filter things we think about through our own limited reasoning. God, however, isn't limited in His reasoning at all...
The Bible states that God's thoughts are higher than ours.
Here is what Isaiah 55:8-9 says about that.
Isaiah 55:8, 9 (NIV) "For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD. 9 "As the heavens are
higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my
thoughts than your thoughts."
I am using this as an example of how our reasoning about God is quite limited. We have No Idea what He thinks, or how He reasons. So, there is every possibility that our reasoning isn't correct when it comes to God's attributes.
Charlie

  Yes, of course I am talking from human perspective.  From a non judging perspective (difficult) things are as they are. Only a human perspective would see, say-a child's parents both dying in a car accident leaving them an orphan a tragedy. " God works in mysterious ways " doesn't cut it for me. You say-"It would be like a mollusk saying what a human would think or say"  This "god" then is indifferent I suppose- as I would be to a mollusk. Sorry but this doesn't wash with me.

As a human I feel tragedy, sadness , loss. I work towards an nurturing an empathetic, compassionate , even handed, kind perspective, approach. Evidently a god such as you describe does not- therefor is indifferent or malevolent.  After all if it is unfathomably intelligent, powerful then it would be instantly capable of comprehending suffering on a human level. Non- sense.  Bob
   

[BobR]

As a human I feel tragedy, sadness , loss. I work towards an nurturing an empathetic, compassionate , even handed, kind perspective, approach. Evidently a god such as you describe does not- therefor is indifferent or malevolent.  After all if it is unfathomably intelligent, powerful then it would be instantly capable of comprehending suffering on a human level. Non- sense.  Bob

That’s a very real argument, Bob, and also widely held by many. I know many Christians who fall apart after personal tragedy, eschewing their once-held beliefs about a benevolent God who sits idly by as their loved one suffers a heinous tragedy, wastes away from disease, etc. you’re right; how could a compassionate, all-knowing, all capable Deity allow this?

It’s a question for the ages.

Christians (and Catholics) are raised to know that God will not impose upon them, something they can not endure. There’s no guarantee that it will be pleasant, easy, or quick. Some say, every day is a test of your belief and commitment. God bestows man with Free Will. It’s just like our US Constitution to draw a common parallel. You have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit, but you get no guarantee. Free Will is kind of the same.

It is presented that God wants man to choose to love Him, to honor Him, to abide moral tenants. Further, it presented that He could force this upon Man, but then where is the value in that? Man needs Free Will to flourish, to honor, to do good things. It’s like Free Men (and women of course) in a society choose their destiny and derive more as a result.

The downside is Evil. Free Will enables Evil. But, without Evil, without sadness, without pain, how could you ever know Good, Happiness, Love, and Wonderment? Think about that. Would you rather an existence of murky, neutral, pain-free fogginess to bump along? While you prefer to be reduced to a peon in a factory? Or do you prefer to love, lose, win, and live as you choose? I’ll bet the latter. But you can’t have both- liberty without risk, health without sadness.

You’re right of course; living a good and honorable life is what it’s all about. The “only” difference between you and Charlie is that he has a motivation for his efforts that is different than yours. His is to honor a God he believes in. Yours is self-induced, perhaps from upbringing. It doesn’t make either of you better or worse, just walking the same road in different shoes.

If you’d indulge me, instead of trying to work out God/Bible/religion etc through dogma, try reading a book Mere Christianity by C S Lewis. It’s a written transcription of radio broadcasts by an intellect. It’s non-denominational, it’s not theological, it’s simply someone orating intellectual logic to any ordinary person. It’s a fascinating read because it can make certain ideas very, very clear to anyone without ever being “preached at”.

It won’t make you run to a church and take the bath either 

Sorry for the long-winded post.

    Lol, to the last part. I like the architecture of many churches though and have stepped inside of my free will, lol!   ... CS Lewis? Narnia!...anyhow...

    There are those that may put up argument that free will is an illusion, such as Sam Harris. I might agree but that's another discussion entirely.

   But what of tragedy that has no bearing on free will? Heart wrenching things like children born in poverty or terminally ill, etc? That is a loving gods will?

  I can't understand that but then again I am as a mollusk... this gods dinner I suppose... Bob

[Yamahawk]

Bob,
 I think my analogy missed the mark.. I wasn't saying that God is not feeling, as we would be to a mollusk lol... If your description of how you feel about someone losing both parents is feeling, then God's feelings about that tragedy are many times more than ours... again, you are looking through a finite lens, and God's compassion is so much more, as infinity is to a mile.

  Yes, of course I am talking from human perspective.  From a non judging perspective (difficult) things are as they are. Only a human perspective would see, say-a child's parents both dying in a car accident leaving them an orphan a tragedy. " God works in mysterious ways " doesn't cut it for me. You say-"It would be like a mollusk saying what a human would think or say"  This "god" then is indifferent I suppose- as I would be to a mollusk. Sorry but this doesn't wash with me.

As a human I feel tragedy, sadness , loss. I work towards an nurturing an empathetic, compassionate , even handed, kind perspective, approach. Evidently a god such as you describe does not- therefor is indifferent or malevolent. After all if it is unfathomably intelligent, powerful then it would be instantly capable of comprehending suffering on a human level. Non- sense.  Bob
   

Nooooooo! Not at all! God is way more compassionate than the most compassionate person here. I am afraid that my description I gave wasn't complete enough to give you what I know God to be. And, you have a bleak idea of Who God Is... But you know what? Your last sentence IS the Truth about God. The God you describe in the last sentence Is God... But He isn't an 'It' lol... and I agree with Cal, Mere Christianity is a great book by the writer of The Chronicles of Narnia...
Charlie

[BobR]

  I am only expressing how I see things. Its just not for me as my viewpoint is not for you. We all hopefully have a set of guiding principles to live by that keep us on a wise road. One that nurtures, waters the seeds of kindness and compassion. One Ive found not an easy road to follow as fallible perceptions have me veering off it at times. A discipline practiced helps light the way, much, as I imagine yours does for you.....anyhow though we don't see eye to eye on this stuff I know that is not what is important. Bob

[Yamahawk]

I understand, Bob. It's good to express how one feels.That's one way we work through things that we go through in life. I think it's a good road to follow Bob, and I am thinking that you will find the path that God has for you, as you are already on it. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and feelings, brother!
Charlie