Author Topic: Christ Revealed Documentary Series available for viewing - DONE for now  (Read 15957 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Yamahawk

  • IGOR!Come here IGOR! ...Yesss
  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,678
  • 1971 Honda CB750 Four K1
    • Kingdom Run Biker Church and Outreach
Re: Christ Revealed Documentary Series available for viewing - DONE for now
« Reply #125 on: April 30, 2018, 06:44:35 AM »
Can we know for sure that there is only one God and that he really does love us eternally? How can we be sure he won't stop caring like so many religious folks do ??
"And God said, "I will place loving, obedient and caring wives in all corners of the Earth for my beloved Sons".

Then God made the Earth round, and laughed. And laughed. And laughed.

Enough said.  :D ;D
Bwaaaahahaha yep..
but even if the Earth is flat, like so claim, it is Still round lol...
Charlie
1971 CB750K1 (newest bike), 1996 Royal Enfield 500 Bullet (therapy bike), 1981 Yamaha XV920RH, 2006 Kawasaki Concours (retirement bike), 1975 Yamaha RD350 (race bike), 1989 Honda VTR250 Interceptor (race bike), 1986 Kawasaki EX250 Ninja (race bike in progress), 1985 Honda Elite CH250, 1973 Yamaha GT1 80cc, 1974 Yamaha DT360 project bike.

The Only Thing Necessary for Evil to Triumph, is for Good Men to do Nothing.
Edmund Burke

All Things work together for good, for those who love God and are the Called according to His purpose.
Romans 8:28

Though He slay me, Yet will I trust Him...
Job 13:15
will you trust Him...?

Offline BobR

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 354
Re: Christ Revealed Documentary Series available for viewing - DONE for now
« Reply #126 on: April 30, 2018, 07:18:22 AM »
 Aside from the lack of any evidence of god in the first place what gets me is if one did exist it would be either not omnipotent or not benevolent (loving and caring ) Clearly it couldnt be both. Bob
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one. Albert Einstein
 CB750K4(F2 engine)

Offline jlh3rd

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,567
Re: Christ Revealed Documentary Series available for viewing - DONE for now
« Reply #127 on: April 30, 2018, 09:22:20 AM »
Can we know for sure that there is only one God and that he really does love us eternally? How can we be sure he won't stop caring like so many religious folks do ??
"And God said, "I will place loving, obedient and caring wives in all corners of the Earth for my beloved Sons".

Then God made the Earth round, and laughed. And laughed. And laughed.

Enough said.  :D ;D
Bwaaaahahaha yep..
but even if the Earth is flat, like so claim, it is Still round lol...
Charlie

Yep, I believe He has a sense of humor........
Aside from the lack of any evidence of god in the first place what gets me is if one did exist it would be either not omnipotent or not benevolent (loving and caring ) Clearly it couldnt be both. Bob

It would be hard to believe there could be a perfect “ dictator “ , which in essence is what a belief in a god boils down to. But I’m open to the possibility, and hope/ believe there is. There has to be some final justice for all the evil the world has seen,and sees.
    Evidence can be fleeting, hidden, personal, or viewed in others or their life. No major miracles in my life, but, gotta tell ya, there have been some interesting outcomes that went beyond mere coincidental occurrences.

Offline Yamahawk

  • IGOR!Come here IGOR! ...Yesss
  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,678
  • 1971 Honda CB750 Four K1
    • Kingdom Run Biker Church and Outreach
Re: Christ Revealed Documentary Series available for viewing - DONE for now
« Reply #128 on: April 30, 2018, 11:14:33 AM »
Aside from the lack of any evidence of god in the first place what gets me is if one did exist it would be either not omnipotent or not benevolent (loving and caring ) Clearly it couldnt be both. Bob
Well Bob, let's sit back and examine the reasoning used in your deduction about God. First, you are supposing 'IF' there is a god... so you aren't sure. Then, your deduction is made that 'IF' there is a god, 'IT' would be either not omnipotent or not benevolent (loving and caring). Then, you quantify this by saying 'Clearly it couldn't be both.'
Now...  you are clearly using 'human' reasoning to make this deduction about God... and Our thoughts and His thoughts are not the same. It would be like a mollusk saying what a human would think or say... not even close actually from the degree of thought that God is capable of compared to our thoughts. So, you are deducing what God would Be, by your own finite reasoning, versus an Omnipotent, Omniscient, Being that can create something called our Universe... and clearly, those two thoughts are so far apart, that they cannot even be compared to each other.  I say this, as we filter things we think about through our own limited reasoning. God, however, isn't limited in His reasoning at all...
The Bible states that God's thoughts are higher than ours.
Here is what Isaiah 55:8-9 says about that.
Isaiah 55:8, 9 (NIV) "For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD. 9 "As the heavens are
higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my
thoughts than your thoughts."
I am using this as an example of how our reasoning about God is quite limited. We have No Idea what He thinks, or how He reasons. So, there is every possibility that our reasoning isn't correct when it comes to God's attributes.
Charlie
1971 CB750K1 (newest bike), 1996 Royal Enfield 500 Bullet (therapy bike), 1981 Yamaha XV920RH, 2006 Kawasaki Concours (retirement bike), 1975 Yamaha RD350 (race bike), 1989 Honda VTR250 Interceptor (race bike), 1986 Kawasaki EX250 Ninja (race bike in progress), 1985 Honda Elite CH250, 1973 Yamaha GT1 80cc, 1974 Yamaha DT360 project bike.

The Only Thing Necessary for Evil to Triumph, is for Good Men to do Nothing.
Edmund Burke

All Things work together for good, for those who love God and are the Called according to His purpose.
Romans 8:28

Though He slay me, Yet will I trust Him...
Job 13:15
will you trust Him...?

Offline BobR

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 354
Re: Christ Revealed Documentary Series available for viewing - DONE for now
« Reply #129 on: April 30, 2018, 02:36:14 PM »
Aside from the lack of any evidence of god in the first place what gets me is if one did exist it would be either not omnipotent or not benevolent (loving and caring ) Clearly it couldnt be both. Bob
Well Bob, let's sit back and examine the reasoning used in your deduction about God. First, you are supposing 'IF' there is a god... so you aren't sure. Then, your deduction is made that 'IF' there is a god, 'IT' would be either not omnipotent or not benevolent (loving and caring). Then, you quantify this by saying 'Clearly it couldn't be both.'
Now...  you are clearly using 'human' reasoning to make this deduction about God... and Our thoughts and His thoughts are not the same. It would be like a mollusk saying what a human would think or say... not even close actually from the degree of thought that God is capable of compared to our thoughts. So, you are deducing what God would Be, by your own finite reasoning, versus an Omnipotent, Omniscient, Being that can create something called our Universe... and clearly, those two thoughts are so far apart, that they cannot even be compared to each other.  I say this, as we filter things we think about through our own limited reasoning. God, however, isn't limited in His reasoning at all...
The Bible states that God's thoughts are higher than ours.
Here is what Isaiah 55:8-9 says about that.
Isaiah 55:8, 9 (NIV) "For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD. 9 "As the heavens are
higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my
thoughts than your thoughts."
I am using this as an example of how our reasoning about God is quite limited. We have No Idea what He thinks, or how He reasons. So, there is every possibility that our reasoning isn't correct when it comes to God's attributes.
Charlie

  Yes, of course I am talking from human perspective.  From a non judging perspective (difficult) things are as they are. Only a human perspective would see, say-a child's parents both dying in a car accident leaving them an orphan a tragedy. " God works in mysterious ways " doesn't cut it for me. You say-"It would be like a mollusk saying what a human would think or say"  This "god" then is indifferent I suppose- as I would be to a mollusk. Sorry but this doesn't wash with me.

As a human I feel tragedy, sadness , loss. I work towards an nurturing an empathetic, compassionate , even handed, kind perspective, approach. Evidently a god such as you describe does not- therefor is indifferent or malevolent.  After all if it is unfathomably intelligent, powerful then it would be instantly capable of comprehending suffering on a human level. Non- sense.  Bob
   
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one. Albert Einstein
 CB750K4(F2 engine)

Offline calj737

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,088
  • I refuse...
Re: Christ Revealed Documentary Series available for viewing - DONE for now
« Reply #130 on: April 30, 2018, 03:00:06 PM »
As a human I feel tragedy, sadness , loss. I work towards an nurturing an empathetic, compassionate , even handed, kind perspective, approach. Evidently a god such as you describe does not- therefor is indifferent or malevolent.  After all if it is unfathomably intelligent, powerful then it would be instantly capable of comprehending suffering on a human level. Non- sense.  Bob
That’s a very real argument, Bob, and also widely held by many. I know many Christians who fall apart after personal tragedy, eschewing their once-held beliefs about a benevolent God who sits idly by as their loved one suffers a heinous tragedy, wastes away from disease, etc. you’re right; how could a compassionate, all-knowing, all capable Deity allow this?

It’s a question for the ages.

Christians (and Catholics) are raised to know that God will not impose upon them, something they can not endure. There’s no guarantee that it will be pleasant, easy, or quick. Some say, every day is a test of your belief and commitment. God bestows man with Free Will. It’s just like our US Constitution to draw a common parallel. You have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit, but you get no guarantee. Free Will is kind of the same.

It is presented that God wants man to choose to love Him, to honor Him, to abide moral tenants. Further, it presented that He could force this upon Man, but then where is the value in that? Man needs Free Will to flourish, to honor, to do good things. It’s like Free Men (and women of course) in a society choose their destiny and derive more as a result.

The downside is Evil. Free Will enables Evil. But, without Evil, without sadness, without pain, how could you ever know Good, Happiness, Love, and Wonderment? Think about that. Would you rather an existence of murky, neutral, pain-free fogginess to bump along? While you prefer to be reduced to a peon in a factory? Or do you prefer to love, lose, win, and live as you choose? I’ll bet the latter. But you can’t have both- liberty without risk, health without sadness.

You’re right of course; living a good and honorable life is what it’s all about. The “only” difference between you and Charlie is that he has a motivation for his efforts that is different than yours. His is to honor a God he believes in. Yours is self-induced, perhaps from upbringing. It doesn’t make either of you better or worse, just walking the same road in different shoes.

If you’d indulge me, instead of trying to work out God/Bible/religion etc through dogma, try reading a book Mere Christianity by C S Lewis. It’s a written transcription of radio broadcasts by an intellect. It’s non-denominational, it’s not theological, it’s simply someone orating intellectual logic to any ordinary person. It’s a fascinating read because it can make certain ideas very, very clear to anyone without ever being “preached at”.

It won’t make you run to a church and take the bath either  ;)

Sorry for the long-winded post.
'74 550 Build http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=126401.0
'73 500 Build http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132935.0

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline BobR

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 354
Re: Christ Revealed Documentary Series available for viewing - DONE for now
« Reply #131 on: April 30, 2018, 03:35:17 PM »
As a human I feel tragedy, sadness , loss. I work towards an nurturing an empathetic, compassionate , even handed, kind perspective, approach. Evidently a god such as you describe does not- therefor is indifferent or malevolent.  After all if it is unfathomably intelligent, powerful then it would be instantly capable of comprehending suffering on a human level. Non- sense.  Bob
That’s a very real argument, Bob, and also widely held by many. I know many Christians who fall apart after personal tragedy, eschewing their once-held beliefs about a benevolent God who sits idly by as their loved one suffers a heinous tragedy, wastes away from disease, etc. you’re right; how could a compassionate, all-knowing, all capable Deity allow this?

It’s a question for the ages.

Christians (and Catholics) are raised to know that God will not impose upon them, something they can not endure. There’s no guarantee that it will be pleasant, easy, or quick. Some say, every day is a test of your belief and commitment. God bestows man with Free Will. It’s just like our US Constitution to draw a common parallel. You have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit, but you get no guarantee. Free Will is kind of the same.

It is presented that God wants man to choose to love Him, to honor Him, to abide moral tenants. Further, it presented that He could force this upon Man, but then where is the value in that? Man needs Free Will to flourish, to honor, to do good things. It’s like Free Men (and women of course) in a society choose their destiny and derive more as a result.

The downside is Evil. Free Will enables Evil. But, without Evil, without sadness, without pain, how could you ever know Good, Happiness, Love, and Wonderment? Think about that. Would you rather an existence of murky, neutral, pain-free fogginess to bump along? While you prefer to be reduced to a peon in a factory? Or do you prefer to love, lose, win, and live as you choose? I’ll bet the latter. But you can’t have both- liberty without risk, health without sadness.

You’re right of course; living a good and honorable life is what it’s all about. The “only” difference between you and Charlie is that he has a motivation for his efforts that is different than yours. His is to honor a God he believes in. Yours is self-induced, perhaps from upbringing. It doesn’t make either of you better or worse, just walking the same road in different shoes.

If you’d indulge me, instead of trying to work out God/Bible/religion etc through dogma, try reading a book Mere Christianity by C S Lewis. It’s a written transcription of radio broadcasts by an intellect. It’s non-denominational, it’s not theological, it’s simply someone orating intellectual logic to any ordinary person. It’s a fascinating read because it can make certain ideas very, very clear to anyone without ever being “preached at”.

It won’t make you run to a church and take the bath either  ;)

Sorry for the long-winded post.

    Lol, to the last part. I like the architecture of many churches though and have stepped inside of my free will, lol!   ... CS Lewis? Narnia!...anyhow...

    There are those that may put up argument that free will is an illusion, such as Sam Harris. I might agree but that's another discussion entirely.

   But what of tragedy that has no bearing on free will? Heart wrenching things like children born in poverty or terminally ill, etc? That is a loving gods will?

  I can't understand that but then again I am as a mollusk... this gods dinner I suppose... Bob
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one. Albert Einstein
 CB750K4(F2 engine)

Offline Yamahawk

  • IGOR!Come here IGOR! ...Yesss
  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,678
  • 1971 Honda CB750 Four K1
    • Kingdom Run Biker Church and Outreach
Re: Christ Revealed Documentary Series available for viewing - DONE for now
« Reply #132 on: April 30, 2018, 05:13:13 PM »
Bob,
 I think my analogy missed the mark.. I wasn't saying that God is not feeling, as we would be to a mollusk lol... If your description of how you feel about someone losing both parents is feeling, then God's feelings about that tragedy are many times more than ours... again, you are looking through a finite lens, and God's compassion is so much more, as infinity is to a mile.

  Yes, of course I am talking from human perspective.  From a non judging perspective (difficult) things are as they are. Only a human perspective would see, say-a child's parents both dying in a car accident leaving them an orphan a tragedy. " God works in mysterious ways " doesn't cut it for me. You say-"It would be like a mollusk saying what a human would think or say"  This "god" then is indifferent I suppose- as I would be to a mollusk. Sorry but this doesn't wash with me.

As a human I feel tragedy, sadness , loss. I work towards an nurturing an empathetic, compassionate , even handed, kind perspective, approach. Evidently a god such as you describe does not- therefor is indifferent or malevolent. After all if it is unfathomably intelligent, powerful then it would be instantly capable of comprehending suffering on a human level. Non- sense.  Bob
   

Nooooooo! Not at all! God is way more compassionate than the most compassionate person here. I am afraid that my description I gave wasn't complete enough to give you what I know God to be. And, you have a bleak idea of Who God Is... But you know what? Your last sentence IS the Truth about God. The God you describe in the last sentence Is God... But He isn't an 'It' lol... and I agree with Cal, Mere Christianity is a great book by the writer of The Chronicles of Narnia... :)
Charlie
1971 CB750K1 (newest bike), 1996 Royal Enfield 500 Bullet (therapy bike), 1981 Yamaha XV920RH, 2006 Kawasaki Concours (retirement bike), 1975 Yamaha RD350 (race bike), 1989 Honda VTR250 Interceptor (race bike), 1986 Kawasaki EX250 Ninja (race bike in progress), 1985 Honda Elite CH250, 1973 Yamaha GT1 80cc, 1974 Yamaha DT360 project bike.

The Only Thing Necessary for Evil to Triumph, is for Good Men to do Nothing.
Edmund Burke

All Things work together for good, for those who love God and are the Called according to His purpose.
Romans 8:28

Though He slay me, Yet will I trust Him...
Job 13:15
will you trust Him...?

Offline BobR

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 354
Re: Christ Revealed Documentary Series available for viewing - DONE for now
« Reply #133 on: April 30, 2018, 05:57:34 PM »
  I am only expressing how I see things. Its just not for me as my viewpoint is not for you. We all hopefully have a set of guiding principles to live by that keep us on a wise road. One that nurtures, waters the seeds of kindness and compassion. One Ive found not an easy road to follow as fallible perceptions have me veering off it at times. A discipline practiced helps light the way, much, as I imagine yours does for you.....anyhow though we don't see eye to eye on this stuff I know that is not what is important. Bob
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one. Albert Einstein
 CB750K4(F2 engine)

Offline Yamahawk

  • IGOR!Come here IGOR! ...Yesss
  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,678
  • 1971 Honda CB750 Four K1
    • Kingdom Run Biker Church and Outreach
Re: Christ Revealed Documentary Series available for viewing - DONE for now
« Reply #134 on: April 30, 2018, 06:29:16 PM »
I understand, Bob. It's good to express how one feels.That's one way we work through things that we go through in life. I think it's a good road to follow Bob, and I am thinking that you will find the path that God has for you, as you are already on it. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and feelings, brother!
Charlie
1971 CB750K1 (newest bike), 1996 Royal Enfield 500 Bullet (therapy bike), 1981 Yamaha XV920RH, 2006 Kawasaki Concours (retirement bike), 1975 Yamaha RD350 (race bike), 1989 Honda VTR250 Interceptor (race bike), 1986 Kawasaki EX250 Ninja (race bike in progress), 1985 Honda Elite CH250, 1973 Yamaha GT1 80cc, 1974 Yamaha DT360 project bike.

The Only Thing Necessary for Evil to Triumph, is for Good Men to do Nothing.
Edmund Burke

All Things work together for good, for those who love God and are the Called according to His purpose.
Romans 8:28

Though He slay me, Yet will I trust Him...
Job 13:15
will you trust Him...?

Offline calj737

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,088
  • I refuse...
Re: Christ Revealed Documentary Series available for viewing - DONE for now
« Reply #135 on: April 30, 2018, 06:37:07 PM »
... CS Lewis? Narnia!...anyhow...
The same guy. He was an avid writer of both fantasy and theological exploration. He was also very close personal friends with JRR Tolkien.

Quote
There are those that may put up argument that free will is an illusion, such as Sam Harris. I might agree but that's another discussion entirely.
Hmmm. I’m not familiar with Sam Harris. I’d argue that perhaps it’s called a different thing, but at the end, it’s one in the same, Free Will. People choose many things. Sure, some things are regulated, but I’m referring to much deeper choices like: being a good and noble person, having compassion and doing for others, choosing to abide the “Golden Rule”, obey laws, etc. I guess someone might refer that to good citizenship, but it’s really a morality function in my view.

Quote

But what of tragedy that has no bearing on free will? Heart wrenching things like children born in poverty or terminally ill, etc? That is a loving gods will?
Well at some point, some person made choices that led to these results in a macro fashion. One could argue that poverty and famine are the result of too many people choosing NOT to do noble things like love thy neighbor. And there’s always force majeur. Don’t think because God can, that he will. It’s not always His will that is done, and He doesn’t impose it upon Man. That’s the rub.
'74 550 Build http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=126401.0
'73 500 Build http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132935.0

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline BobR

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 354
Re: Christ Revealed Documentary Series available for viewing - DONE for now
« Reply #136 on: April 30, 2018, 07:03:39 PM »
 I'll tell you what the rub is.....




































...I should stick to motorcycles on a motorcycle forum! lol! Peace and out. :)  Bob
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one. Albert Einstein
 CB750K4(F2 engine)

Offline Yamahawk

  • IGOR!Come here IGOR! ...Yesss
  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,678
  • 1971 Honda CB750 Four K1
    • Kingdom Run Biker Church and Outreach
I'll tell you what the rub is.....

...I should stick to motorcycles on a motorcycle forum! lol! Peace and out. :)  Bob

Bob, it has been a real pleasure discussing with you. I hope you look for that book Cal recommended, 'Mere Christianity'. C.S. Lewis is a heck of a fellow, as you know from reading the Narnia series. Another book he wrote, that is a little strange, is called 'the Screwtape Letters', an interesting read too, lol.
Sometimes I think we put God in our shoes... and His feet are just a little different than ours. ;)
God bless, Brother!
Charlie
1971 CB750K1 (newest bike), 1996 Royal Enfield 500 Bullet (therapy bike), 1981 Yamaha XV920RH, 2006 Kawasaki Concours (retirement bike), 1975 Yamaha RD350 (race bike), 1989 Honda VTR250 Interceptor (race bike), 1986 Kawasaki EX250 Ninja (race bike in progress), 1985 Honda Elite CH250, 1973 Yamaha GT1 80cc, 1974 Yamaha DT360 project bike.

The Only Thing Necessary for Evil to Triumph, is for Good Men to do Nothing.
Edmund Burke

All Things work together for good, for those who love God and are the Called according to His purpose.
Romans 8:28

Though He slay me, Yet will I trust Him...
Job 13:15
will you trust Him...?

Offline knowsnothing

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 643
Aside from the lack of any evidence of god in the first place what gets me is if one did exist it would be either not omnipotent or not benevolent (loving and caring ) Clearly it couldnt be both. Bob

Hey bobby long time  ;)

I did this thought experiment in a philosophy class in college. 

a) God is all knowning
b) God is wholly good
c) God is all powerful

Based on the #$%*ty things that happen in this world like disease, suffering, infant death, war, the holocaust etc., we came to the conclusion you could only pick 2.  The free will argument fizzled as well

-Treeve



1978 CB750k Green - 811 engine
1978 CB750k Blue - for sale
1974 CB375F Faded Black - had to have that 6th gear
1976 CB400F Red - in many pieces
1973 CB350F TBD - in many pieces