Author Topic: Spark Plugs - Changed to DR8ES-L from D8EA, are these too lean?  (Read 5887 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Yamahawk

  • IGOR!Come here IGOR! ...Yesss
  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,678
  • 1971 Honda CB750 Four K1
    • Kingdom Run Biker Church and Outreach
I just changed spark plugs from D8EA to DR8ES-L as I needed some resistance in the ignition system. Am running Accel yellow coils with the yellow wires with the brownish boots, as the isn't any added resistance to the ignition. Also running TEK points and condensers. The bike pulls strong all the way to 9.5k+ rpm, and never misses.
Now the D8EA plugs were almost white when I pulled them out, and this is after some 70+mph freeway riding, along with around town and 55-60 mph for 20 miles or so. These plugs might have 200-300 miles on them. The jetting is 125 mains, never had the tops off the carbs, so not sure of needle settings yet, but pilots are 38 I believe. Are these plugs looking too lean? from left to right #1 is a little bit browner, but #2 through #4 are almost white, with a little brown on the side of the porcelain. I also noticed that the #4 plug has a small gap at the top where the spark plug wire connects and the porcelain... What do you think?
Charlie
1971 CB750K1 (newest bike), 1996 Royal Enfield 500 Bullet (therapy bike), 1981 Yamaha XV920RH, 2006 Kawasaki Concours (retirement bike), 1975 Yamaha RD350 (race bike), 1989 Honda VTR250 Interceptor (race bike), 1986 Kawasaki EX250 Ninja (race bike in progress), 1985 Honda Elite CH250, 1973 Yamaha GT1 80cc, 1974 Yamaha DT360 project bike.

The Only Thing Necessary for Evil to Triumph, is for Good Men to do Nothing.
Edmund Burke

All Things work together for good, for those who love God and are the Called according to His purpose.
Romans 8:28

Though He slay me, Yet will I trust Him...
Job 13:15
will you trust Him...?

Offline evinrude7

  • not a kung-fu
  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,099
  • something to hüsker
Re: Spark Plugs - Changed to DR8ES-L from D8EA, are these too lean?
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2018, 05:26:25 AM »
2,3,4 look lean.
cb750 k6 - ugly

Offline flybox1

  • My wife thinks I'm a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,301
Re: Spark Plugs - Changed to DR8ES-L from D8EA, are these too lean?
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2018, 07:16:21 AM »
2,3,4 look lean.
+1
...but where are they lean?!?!?  Your test isnt specific enough to tell you where.

Start with an idle plug chop.  Adjust your IMS until your plug are tan, like #1 above.
Pilot jets, if stock, should be fine, if your intake and exhaust are stock.
Complete a 1/3 throttle position plug chop.  Adjust needle clip position based on plug readings for each cylinder.
lastly, complete a WOT plug chop and change main jets if needed based on plug readings for each cylinder.
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
77/78 cool 2 member #3
"Knowledge without mileage equals bullsh!t" - Henry Rollins

"This is my CB. There are many like it, but this one is mine…"

Offline PeWe

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 15,546
  • Bike almost back to the 70's 2015
Re: Spark Plugs - Changed to DR8ES-L from D8EA, are these too lean?
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2018, 10:38:44 AM »
Really lean? 1:st to the left look too rich.
Here a photo of my plugs that I see as OK.  Last year verified on the Dyno with A/F check. 3:rd run verified OK carbs from low to full throttle, cruising speed included, mostly the needles. cyl 4 look little bit richer here. I got all pipes checked separately.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2018, 10:42:24 AM by PeWe »
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline Yamahawk

  • IGOR!Come here IGOR! ...Yesss
  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,678
  • 1971 Honda CB750 Four K1
    • Kingdom Run Biker Church and Outreach
Re: Spark Plugs - Changed to DR8ES-L from D8EA, are these too lean?
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2018, 11:12:14 AM »
2,3,4 look lean.
+1
...but where are they lean?!?!?  Your test isnt specific enough to tell you where.

Start with an idle plug chop.  Adjust your IMS until your plug are tan, like #1 above.
Pilot jets, if stock, should be fine, if your intake and exhaust are stock.
Complete a 1/3 throttle position plug chop.  Adjust needle clip position based on plug readings for each cylinder.
lastly, complete a WOT plug chop and change main jets if needed based on plug readings for each cylinder.

flybox1 and evinrude,
This is just from a couple hundred miles of everyday riding, and some redline runs in 3 or 4 gears.
My intakes are UNI foam filter pods, and the exhaust is a MAC 4-2 with side cutout pipes.

Really lean? 1:st to the left look too rich.
Here a photo of my plugs that I see as OK.  Last year verified on the Dyno with A/F check. 3:rd run verified OK carbs from low to full throttle, cruising speed included, mostly the needles. cyl 4 look little bit richer here. I got all pipes checked separately.


PeWe,
  My plugs look a lot like yours, except #1, and I could live with that lol... The plugs when I first got the bike were soot black, and it needed TLC. After re-setting the float levels, and cleaning the jets/passageways and doing a bench sync,  along with setting the points gap on TEK points, and setting dwell and timing with a meter and induction timing light, this is where I am. The engine pulls strong at full throttle, and would keep pulling past the top of redline if I let it. It is also getting right at 40mpg. I will try the plug chop suggestions, and I really need to check the needle positions on all 4 carbs, as I haven't looked at the slides/needles yet, so don't know where the clips are set.
Charlie
1971 CB750K1 (newest bike), 1996 Royal Enfield 500 Bullet (therapy bike), 1981 Yamaha XV920RH, 2006 Kawasaki Concours (retirement bike), 1975 Yamaha RD350 (race bike), 1989 Honda VTR250 Interceptor (race bike), 1986 Kawasaki EX250 Ninja (race bike in progress), 1985 Honda Elite CH250, 1973 Yamaha GT1 80cc, 1974 Yamaha DT360 project bike.

The Only Thing Necessary for Evil to Triumph, is for Good Men to do Nothing.
Edmund Burke

All Things work together for good, for those who love God and are the Called according to His purpose.
Romans 8:28

Though He slay me, Yet will I trust Him...
Job 13:15
will you trust Him...?

Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 13,806
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Re: Spark Plugs - Changed to DR8ES-L from D8EA, are these too lean?
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2018, 11:21:14 AM »
They look a little unbalanced, but not real lean. Look to the colors of the metal ring, not just the plug ceramic tip. You want the tip to be light or somewhat white with today's gas, because the ethanol and the (new this year) natural-gas base of our fuel will not make the same colors as shown in the old Honda manuals anymore. Every State except Hawaii and Alaska is now using natural-gas blended fuels, but edict of our [kindly?] EPA in November last year. This WILL make the plugs lighter in color by several shades.

I'd suggest looking for a vacuum leak on #1, It is running a lower feed rate than the others: these carbs run richer as the airflow thru them run slower, so a vacuum leak always causes the plug in the affected one to be dark.

Now, go get some popcorn, because you'll find lots of other opinions following this one. ;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline PeWe

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 15,546
  • Bike almost back to the 70's 2015
Re: Spark Plugs - Changed to DR8ES-L from D8EA, are these too lean?
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2018, 01:23:26 PM »
I see my photo, 1-4 differ a little from 2-3. Maybe since 2-3 runs warmer, inner cylinders. I check ignition again.

Hondaman ignition, dyna 5 ohm coils, NGK 5kohm caps and D8EA.  Bike runs great, really strong.
It is not stock. 1005cc 10.5:1, ported head, 34mm in valves (kibblewhite 5mm stems), Mikuni TMR32 w acc pumps. Cam used before photo was DP315. Now RC295 profile and even stronger.
Oil? No... top secret ;)

Edit: I feed my bike with Shell V-Power, 5% ethanol here.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2018, 03:12:29 AM by PeWe »
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,805
Re: Spark Plugs - Changed to DR8ES-L from D8EA, are these too lean?
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2018, 02:07:44 PM »
My concern is that they show different deposit patterns.  Find out why that is before fine tuning plugs and mixtures.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Yamahawk

  • IGOR!Come here IGOR! ...Yesss
  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,678
  • 1971 Honda CB750 Four K1
    • Kingdom Run Biker Church and Outreach
Re: Spark Plugs - Changed to DR8ES-L from D8EA, are these too lean?
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2018, 08:14:05 PM »
They look a little unbalanced, but not real lean. Look to the colors of the metal ring, not just the plug ceramic tip. You want the tip to be light or somewhat white with today's gas, because the ethanol and the (new this year) natural-gas base of our fuel will not make the same colors as shown in the old Honda manuals anymore. Every State except Hawaii and Alaska is now using natural-gas blended fuels, but edict of our [kindly?] EPA in November last year. This WILL make the plugs lighter in color by several shades.

I'd suggest looking for a vacuum leak on #1, It is running a lower feed rate than the others: these carbs run richer as the airflow thru them run slower, so a vacuum leak always causes the plug in the affected one to be dark.

Now, go get some popcorn, because you'll find lots of other opinions following this one. ;)

Thanks Mark, I'll do that!

My concern is that they show different deposit patterns. Find out why that is before fine tuning plugs and mixtures.

Cheers,

You know, I did notice that the #4 plug had stuff on the ground strap over the electrode tip... is this what you are referring to? I haven't vacuum synced the carbs yet, but there are what looks like deposits on the plugs. Do you think it could be aluminum from the pistons Lloyd?
Charlie
1971 CB750K1 (newest bike), 1996 Royal Enfield 500 Bullet (therapy bike), 1981 Yamaha XV920RH, 2006 Kawasaki Concours (retirement bike), 1975 Yamaha RD350 (race bike), 1989 Honda VTR250 Interceptor (race bike), 1986 Kawasaki EX250 Ninja (race bike in progress), 1985 Honda Elite CH250, 1973 Yamaha GT1 80cc, 1974 Yamaha DT360 project bike.

The Only Thing Necessary for Evil to Triumph, is for Good Men to do Nothing.
Edmund Burke

All Things work together for good, for those who love God and are the Called according to His purpose.
Romans 8:28

Though He slay me, Yet will I trust Him...
Job 13:15
will you trust Him...?

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,805
Re: Spark Plugs - Changed to DR8ES-L from D8EA, are these too lean?
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2018, 08:46:26 PM »
My concern is that they show different deposit patterns. Find out why that is before fine tuning plugs and mixtures.

Cheers,

You know, I did notice that the #4 plug had stuff on the ground strap over the electrode tip... is this what you are referring to? I haven't vacuum synced the carbs yet, but there are what looks like deposits on the plugs. Do you think it could be aluminum from the pistons Lloyd?
Charlie

Not really.  # 1 looks rich, #2 look lean and the the other two are in between.  There is no valid reason why any cylinder should run at different temps than the others and not self clean the plugs properly.

If you haven't vacuum sync'd, those plugs aren't all that surprising.  If you haven't done a fresh valve lash adjustment, do that first before a vacuum sync. In fact, do the whole 3K mile tune-up schedule.  And before twiddling with carbs do a compression test and/ot leak down test to ensure the mechanical health of all cylinders.   The cylinders can't fire equally and with equal temps unless they each get an equal gulp and charge of air/fuel.

After all the plugs show an equal deposit pattern, then you can make changes to all carbs equally, to achieve the color of deposits that pleases you.  For air cooled motors you do want a slightly rich pattern (tan insulators) because the fuel absorbs some heat for the cylinder to aid in cooling.


I understood that aluminum on the spark plugs would be shiny.  Only #2 look like it might be getting hot enough to flash aluminum, and I don't see that.  Lean, yes.  But, not enough to make hair stand on end.

NGK published the following a good long while ago.  It can still be used as a guide, imo.

Cheers,



Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline PeWe

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 15,546
  • Bike almost back to the 70's 2015
Re: Spark Plugs - Changed to DR8ES-L from D8EA, are these too lean?
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2018, 09:49:34 PM »
It would be fine with a plug chart where modern fuel is used. Unleaded and ethanol mixed fuel. The plug photos on Internet differ a lot. Maybe old vs new fuel?
This might help
http://www.enginebasics.com/Engine%20Basics%20Root%20Folder/Reading%20Spark%20Plugs.html

Edit: The safest way is to take bike to a shop with Dyno and Air/Fuel meter. Let them run the bike from low rpm and very slowly increase throttle to read the crusing speed A/F ratio to full speed to check all jets, needles included.
After that WOT from low.
Air filters must be clean when doing this so the carbs will get proper jets, not running rich due to a dirty filter.

When this is done rejet carbs if needed. When Air/Fuel ratio is good, check the plugs and take photos so you'll know how they look when bike runs with correct fuel mix.

I found this on Internet , interesting values of the A/F ratios depending on heavy load or cruising
« Last Edit: May 04, 2018, 03:41:10 AM by PeWe »
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline dave500

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 17,004
  • WHAT?no gravy?
Re: Spark Plugs - Changed to DR8ES-L from D8EA, are these too lean?
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2018, 03:56:15 AM »
I think too much is read into this plug chop thing?ive never done it,this is from my 550 I thrash all the time,i used these plugs in my spare motor whilst I replaced a broken third gear,these are at least three years old been filed and gapped 3 or 4 times,good ole ngk,this is burning fine,stock jets and airbox and proper 4-1 with long straight through perforated tube muffler.

Offline Yamahawk

  • IGOR!Come here IGOR! ...Yesss
  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,678
  • 1971 Honda CB750 Four K1
    • Kingdom Run Biker Church and Outreach
Re: Spark Plugs - Changed to DR8ES-L from D8EA, are these too lean?
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2018, 05:12:18 AM »
Looks good, Dave! I appreciate the input. Lloyd, I have done the bench sync, cam chain, valve adjustment to get this far, set the float levels, and the only thing I haven't done is the vacuum sync. I do have the vacuum gauge set, used it quite a few times on other bikes, and it works well. Not as good as the 'ol Morgan Carbtune with REAL Mercury, but I guess ya gotta obey the EPA, unless you still have one laying around that is still full of mercury lol...
I also have not done a compression check, but it seems pretty healthy, this bike pulls really well up past redline, hit 10krpm once and it still wanted to pull!
Anyway, I think the resistance on the coils might be part of the problem, too. I am running the yellow Accel coils with the yellow spark plug leads, they do not have resistor caps, and I was running non-resistor plugs. I have installed DR8ES-L plugs now (haven't checked them yet), and was thinking I might need a ballast resistor on the coils. What do you think? Would it help the ignition system to put a Ballast Resistor on the 12vdc coil feed? How about resistor caps, would have to make up new wires, or disconnect the stock Accel plug caps and install 5k NGK ones... think they are needed? Or none of the above lol... Thanks!
Charlie
1971 CB750K1 (newest bike), 1996 Royal Enfield 500 Bullet (therapy bike), 1981 Yamaha XV920RH, 2006 Kawasaki Concours (retirement bike), 1975 Yamaha RD350 (race bike), 1989 Honda VTR250 Interceptor (race bike), 1986 Kawasaki EX250 Ninja (race bike in progress), 1985 Honda Elite CH250, 1973 Yamaha GT1 80cc, 1974 Yamaha DT360 project bike.

The Only Thing Necessary for Evil to Triumph, is for Good Men to do Nothing.
Edmund Burke

All Things work together for good, for those who love God and are the Called according to His purpose.
Romans 8:28

Though He slay me, Yet will I trust Him...
Job 13:15
will you trust Him...?

Offline dave500

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 17,004
  • WHAT?no gravy?
Re: Spark Plugs - Changed to DR8ES-L from D8EA, are these too lean?
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2018, 05:30:51 AM »
what ohms are your coils?

Offline Yamahawk

  • IGOR!Come here IGOR! ...Yesss
  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,678
  • 1971 Honda CB750 Four K1
    • Kingdom Run Biker Church and Outreach
Re: Spark Plugs - Changed to DR8ES-L from D8EA, are these too lean?
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2018, 06:11:31 AM »
what ohms are your coils?

Dave, I believe they are the 3 ohm coils.
Charlie
1971 CB750K1 (newest bike), 1996 Royal Enfield 500 Bullet (therapy bike), 1981 Yamaha XV920RH, 2006 Kawasaki Concours (retirement bike), 1975 Yamaha RD350 (race bike), 1989 Honda VTR250 Interceptor (race bike), 1986 Kawasaki EX250 Ninja (race bike in progress), 1985 Honda Elite CH250, 1973 Yamaha GT1 80cc, 1974 Yamaha DT360 project bike.

The Only Thing Necessary for Evil to Triumph, is for Good Men to do Nothing.
Edmund Burke

All Things work together for good, for those who love God and are the Called according to His purpose.
Romans 8:28

Though He slay me, Yet will I trust Him...
Job 13:15
will you trust Him...?

Offline dave500

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 17,004
  • WHAT?no gravy?
Re: Spark Plugs - Changed to DR8ES-L from D8EA, are these too lean?
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2018, 06:25:44 AM »
measure them,dont believe anything until its proved!

Offline Deltarider

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,121
  • ... but some animals are more equal than others.
Re: Spark Plugs - Changed to DR8ES-L from D8EA, are these too lean?
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2018, 07:39:05 AM »
Due to a misunderstanding decades ago, I still run 3Ω coils. I wired them with ballast resistor and without and never detected a difference in performance. Theoretically points pit more with 3Ω but my TEC points didn't blink and now with my transistor ignition back in action, there's nothing to worry about anyway. Originally the bike was equipped with 4 - 5Ω coils, but I don't rule out my 42 year old wiring adds an extra Ω, so why bother. Actually you can measure this: Battery POS - primary coil. Disconnect Bat NEG first! If you have the second probe on the coils connector to the points, you have the full picture. If you choose to have a ballast resistor and then like to have it perfect, install a bypass (whilst cranking) as shown in the pic. The cost is neglectable. A good ballast resistor itself is expensive however.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2018, 08:01:06 AM by Deltarider »
CB500K2-ED Excel black
"There is enough for everyone's need but not enough for anybody's greed."

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,805
Re: Spark Plugs - Changed to DR8ES-L from D8EA, are these too lean?
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2018, 11:09:13 AM »
Lloyd, I have done the bench sync, cam chain, valve adjustment to get this far, set the float levels, and the only thing I haven't done is the vacuum sync. I do have the vacuum gauge set, used it quite a few times on other bikes, and it works well.

Time to test how well your bench sync was, no?

I also have not done a compression check, but it seems pretty healthy, this bike pulls really well up past redline, hit 10krpm once and it still wanted to pull!
Anyway, I think the resistance on the coils might be part of the problem, too.

Why are you guessing instead of testing and assembling "known facts" about your engine?  One gets the impression you are lonely for conversation.   ;D

I am running the yellow Accel coils with the yellow spark plug leads, they do not have resistor caps, and I was running non-resistor plugs.

Do you have a specific reason to run Accel coils?  Does your engine have more compression pressure than the stock one?  Are you experimenting with larger spark gaps?
Aren't these spark leads suppression types? These have resistance built into them and can break down with age and vibration.  New, they would work the same (mostly) as having resistance in the plugs and/or the plug caps.  The issue is the total series resistance that exists between the coil and spark plug.  For D8 heat range spark plugs, you should have about 5K total series resistance in the coil to gap pathway.  But, this can vary dependent on coil design parameters.  Have you measured the coil secondary resistance.  This is part of the total loop resistance of the secondary circuit.   Stock was in the neighborhood of 15K Ω for the coil and 5K (x2) for the plug caps giving the total loop resistance of about 25K.  I've not had occasion to measure Accel coils or their offering of wires.

I have installed DR8ES-L plugs now (haven't checked them yet), and was thinking I might need a ballast resistor on the coils. What do you think? Would it help the ignition system to put a Ballast Resistor on the 12vdc coil feed?
A series ballast resistor lowers the operating voltage to the coils, as well as lower it's current demands.  Higher current demands on standard point impact their service life due to increased contact surface heating.   A ballast resistor helps this.
On the output side of the coil, a ballast resistor makes little difference, as the voltage in the spark gap is determined by the gap distance and the physical attributes of the atmosphere within that gap.  High compression, for example, requires more voltage to make a spark jump than a lower one.  This is why built performance engines need a higher spark voltage that stock coils may not provide consistently.  "High performance" coils do not make more power in engines that haven't been built to make that power in the first place.

SOHC4 coils are comprised of two windings wrapped about a common metal core.  They develop an output voltage relative to the input voltage based on a "turns ratio".  For simplicity of concept, say the input winding is 10 turns and the output winding is 100 turns.  This is a 10 to 1 ratio.  The coil would output about 10 times the input voltage. 12V becomes 120V.    If you lower the input (primary) winding turns, to say 5, you've increased the turns ratio to 20:1, and for the same input voltage of 12V the output would provide 240V.  Lowering the primary turns shortens the wire which lowers the resistance and lower resistance draws more current.  Adding a ballast resistor, in effect, adds more wire, but is also lowers the operating voltage getting to the winding where the work is done.


How about resistor caps, would have to make up new wires, or disconnect the stock Accel plug caps and install 5k NGK ones... think they are needed? Or none of the above lol... Thanks!

Do understand that resistance in the secondary or spark side of the coil behaves very differently in function and effect than resistance in the input or primary side of the coil circuit.

On the secondary side of the coil, the resistance determines how fast the energy is delivered to the spark gap.  Too little resistance results in a quicker rise time and a rapid dump of the energy into the gap, shortening the event time.  Too much resistance and there may not be enough voltage or current to sustain the spark for the desired duration.  The actual voltage developed is determined by the spark gap distance.    For the SOHC4 swirl quenched chambers, a longer duration spark is desirable to involve as much initial charge as possible at the beginning of the combustion cycle.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Yamahawk

  • IGOR!Come here IGOR! ...Yesss
  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,678
  • 1971 Honda CB750 Four K1
    • Kingdom Run Biker Church and Outreach
Re: Spark Plugs - Changed to DR8ES-L from D8EA, are these too lean?
« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2018, 05:43:08 PM »
Great explanation Lloyd! Thanks it does make sense, and that tells me that perhaps when I had a higher dwell, (smaller point gap) it would run better. The coils would saturate longer, giving higher spark voltage, or something like that. I noticed that when my dwell was about 27deg. it would have more grunt than when I set it to 24deg dwell... anyway, I am making progress on this 'ol bike, and am enjoying it.
I will get out my sync tools and go to work on this soon, and check the needle settings also. That is a definite unknown variable!
I just wish the rear shocks were more compliant lol... they are the black EMGO shocks, and this Mustang seat is hard as a rock. I am thinking of purchasing a reproduction seat for the better comfort!

Due to a misunderstanding decades ago, I still run 3Ω coils. I wired them with ballast resistor and without and never detected a difference in performance. Theoretically points pit more with 3Ω but my TEC points didn't blink and now with my transistor ignition back in action, there's nothing to worry about anyway. Originally the bike was equipped with 4 - 5Ω coils, but I don't rule out my 42 year old wiring adds an extra Ω, so why bother. Actually you can measure this: Battery POS - primary coil. Disconnect Bat NEG first! If you have the second probe on the coils connector to the points, you have the full picture. If you choose to have a ballast resistor and then like to have it perfect, install a bypass (whilst cranking) as shown in the pic. The cost is neglectable. A good ballast resistor itself is expensive however.
Thanks Deltarider, That's a great diagram to add a bypass circuit! I am running these coils as they came on the bike, and I believe they are the 3 ohm, as nobody would buy the .7ohm ones for this bike. The motor runs very strong, and I am thinking there might be some engine work done to it as the cylinders are newer type with three fin connectors instead of the four a 1971 would have had. When I get around to looking inside the spark plug holes, and install a frame kit, I might have an idea what has already been done to this engine.
Charlie
1971 CB750K1 (newest bike), 1996 Royal Enfield 500 Bullet (therapy bike), 1981 Yamaha XV920RH, 2006 Kawasaki Concours (retirement bike), 1975 Yamaha RD350 (race bike), 1989 Honda VTR250 Interceptor (race bike), 1986 Kawasaki EX250 Ninja (race bike in progress), 1985 Honda Elite CH250, 1973 Yamaha GT1 80cc, 1974 Yamaha DT360 project bike.

The Only Thing Necessary for Evil to Triumph, is for Good Men to do Nothing.
Edmund Burke

All Things work together for good, for those who love God and are the Called according to His purpose.
Romans 8:28

Though He slay me, Yet will I trust Him...
Job 13:15
will you trust Him...?

Offline PeWe

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 15,546
  • Bike almost back to the 70's 2015
Re: Spark Plugs - Changed to DR8ES-L from D8EA, are these too lean?
« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2018, 11:14:14 PM »
Check ignition with a strobe lamp if a dwell of 27 runs better than 24.
The ignition setting is probably way too late when dwell of 27 degrees work better. This short gap "correct" the wrong late ign setting.
I checked ign at idle since I know the adv springs are OK (I have cut them 1/2 wound). Full adv around 2600 rpm)

My 2:3 point was at 27 degrees something after plate seat hammer job fixing the sideways play, adjusted point to 23.5 as 1:4. 2:3 ignition was then way too late. Adjusted with strobe lamp and checked dwell again for fine adjustment. Finalized with a strobe check again. 2:3 point bracket sit now in the middle, before in the end adjustment.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2018, 11:16:19 PM by PeWe »
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline Yamahawk

  • IGOR!Come here IGOR! ...Yesss
  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,678
  • 1971 Honda CB750 Four K1
    • Kingdom Run Biker Church and Outreach
Re: Spark Plugs - Changed to DR8ES-L from D8EA, are these too lean?
« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2018, 03:55:40 AM »
Check ignition with a strobe lamp if a dwell of 27 runs better than 24.
The ignition setting is probably way too late when dwell of 27 degrees work better. This short gap "correct" the wrong late ign setting.
I checked ign at idle since I know the adv springs are OK (I have cut them 1/2 wound). Full adv around 2600 rpm)

My 2:3 point was at 27 degrees something after plate seat hammer job fixing the sideways play, adjusted point to 23.5 as 1:4. 2:3 ignition was then way too late. Adjusted with strobe lamp and checked dwell again for fine adjustment. Finalized with a strobe check again. 2:3 point bracket sit now in the middle, before in the end adjustment.
PeWe,
  That was before i got my Actron timing light. Now, the plate has some adjustment, before it was all the way advanced. I am running 24.5deg dwell, and it runs like a scalded cat. I wish I knew the history of this engine, as the P.O.'s son built it for him. It does pull strong up to 10k, and no hesitation at all. I need to shake some free time and vacuum sync the carbs! I have a bunch of people that want work done on their bikes lol... and my daughter needed brakes done on her car yesterday, so after she got off work, we did them together. She's pretty handy on a lot of mechanical work, and I am a proud dad.  ;D
Charlie
1971 CB750K1 (newest bike), 1996 Royal Enfield 500 Bullet (therapy bike), 1981 Yamaha XV920RH, 2006 Kawasaki Concours (retirement bike), 1975 Yamaha RD350 (race bike), 1989 Honda VTR250 Interceptor (race bike), 1986 Kawasaki EX250 Ninja (race bike in progress), 1985 Honda Elite CH250, 1973 Yamaha GT1 80cc, 1974 Yamaha DT360 project bike.

The Only Thing Necessary for Evil to Triumph, is for Good Men to do Nothing.
Edmund Burke

All Things work together for good, for those who love God and are the Called according to His purpose.
Romans 8:28

Though He slay me, Yet will I trust Him...
Job 13:15
will you trust Him...?