Topic: New regulator/rectifier not charging

[rupaulpierce]

Batt is fully charged. Same results with two different fully charged batteries. Both pass a voltage test with the bike off and high beam on.

Also using two voltmeters... a cheapy through ring terminals across the battery, and also via multimeter.

Now i'm going back and forth between the stock units and the new combo unit. Something must have come loose or cooked during the swap.

Stock Units:
Battery voltage key off: 13.34V
Regulator black wire voltage key off: 0V
Regulator white wire voltage key off: 0V
Battery voltage key on: 13.2V
Battery voltage key on w/ high beam: 13V
Regulator black wire voltage key on: 12.5V
Regulator white wire voltage key on: 12.1V

New Combo Unit:
Battery voltage key off: 13.2V
Regulator black wire voltage key off: 0V
Regulator white wire voltage key off: 0V
Battery voltage key on: 13.1V
Battery voltage key on w/ high beam: 13V
Regulator black wire voltage key on: 12.81V
Regulator white wire voltage key on: 12.77V

Both set ups drop from +13.2V to 13.07V when running and pegged at 4k rpm.

[strynboen]

the stock reg is not so presise...so for sensibel batteries..its fine to get a elektronic unit..the elektronic is voltage regulating..and garente the 13,5-14.8 volt..the mecanic..can go heiger in volt,if the battery need some power...it dont sence the volt..anyvau not presise...accic and gel batteries can easy take a bit overloading..and Work fine vith the old reg...

[rupaulpierce]

FYI- I inquired with 4into1 and the output ceiling of their combo reg/rec is 14.8V.


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[strynboen]

yes 13,5- 14,8 is standart volt

[rupaulpierce]

Re-tested stator and field coils at the plug.

A-B: .9 ohms
A-C: .8 ohms
B-A: .9 ohms

Green-White: 5ohms

Using a innova 3320 from Autozone... it's supposed to be self-calibrating so no need to subtract internal resistance of multimeter.

Is resistance close to 1ohm  on stator coils normal for an old bike? The sohc4 guide says over 1ohm indicates a bad stator. The field coil should also test at 7.2ohms apparently.

[TwoTired]

Voltage measurements are made with two probes.  One provides a reference for the other.

Where are you placing your probes for your posted measurements? 

[rupaulpierce]

Voltage measurements are made with two probes.  One provides a reference for the other.

Where are you placing your probes for your posted measurements?

Voltage measurements were taken with the negative lead clipped to the negative terminal on the battery, and the positive lead on the harness/regulator connection.


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[TwoTired]

Voltage measurements are made with two probes.  One provides a reference for the other.

Where are you placing your probes for your posted measurements?

Voltage measurements were taken with the negative lead clipped to the negative terminal on the battery, and the positive lead on the harness/regulator connection.


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Then the only accurate measurement was the battery voltage only.  You need to measure the vreg voltage with both probes located at the vreg's black and green terminals, as that is the reference voltage the vreg is using to make decisions.
Alternately, you can use the voltmeter to read the direct error report by placing probes on batt pos and the black wire on the vreg, and another measurement with probes on the batt neg terminal and the vreg green terminal.  These two measurements are summed to yeild the total error voltage that the vreg is experiencing relative to true battery voltage.
 
Cheers,

[rupaulpierce]

Thanks TwoTired.

Measured from the vreg connections, key on.

Batt: 13.15V
Green/black: 12.45V
Green/white: 12.45V
Batt pos / vreg black: .653V
Batt neg / vreg green: 39.6mV



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[BomberMann650]

Went through this crud with the 750/3 and a few...tricky california reg/rec combos. (Name changed)
Dunno if its been mentioned, it's possible that you'll have to attach an additional ground from the combo unit to the field coil.  In my case, it was a black wire.  Activates the charging unit bringing voltage from the 12.5 range back to "normal".

[rupaulpierce]

Went through this crud with the 750/3 and a few...tricky california reg/rec combos. (Name changed)
Dunno if its been mentioned, it's possible that you'll have to attach an additional ground from the combo unit to the field coil.  In my case, it was a black wire.  Activates the charging unit bringing voltage from the 12.5 range back to "normal".

Interesting, not sure why that would be necessary with this unit... i think it’s grounded twice, once on the regulator connections and again in the rectifier plug.


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[TwoTired]

Measured from the vreg connections, key on.

Batt: 13.15V
Is this the AGM or the Lithium Battery?  This is inappropriate for an AGM not under charge conditions with the key simply on.
Is this measurement across the battery's terminals directly?

Green/black: 12.45V
Green/white: 12.45V
So, whatever Vreg you have measured here appears to lose no voltage as it passes it to the Alternator Field coil.  This input measurement is lower than actual Battery voltage and is load dependent, and will go lower with lighting on and higher with lighting off.  Note that this is the voltage the the vreg acts upon.  Give it false information and it won't be able to properly maintain the battery.

Batt pos / vreg black: .653V
Batt neg / vreg green: 39.6mV
This means that whatever Vreg you have connected (you did not specify), will assume that the battery voltage is  1 V less charged than actual.  And will try to charge it to about 13.8 to 14.5 5 volts at its sense terminals.  With a 1 volt offset that means the vreg will apply 1 v more than what it it is set for what is appropriate. (14.8 to 15.5V) in this case, under the conditions that you have made the measurement.  Change the system loading (changing the Black wire voltage) will also alter the monitoring voltage and vary the charging power.

[rupaulpierce]

These measurements were taken with an earthx lithium, and the combo reg/rec available on 4into1.


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[BomberMann650]

Went through this crud with the 750/3 and a few...tricky california reg/rec combos. (Name changed)
Dunno if its been mentioned, it's possible that you'll have to attach an additional ground from the combo unit to the field coil.  In my case, it was a black wire.  Activates the charging unit bringing voltage from the 12.5 range back to "normal".

Interesting, not sure why that would be necessary with this unit... i think it’s grounded twice, once on the regulator connections and again in the rectifier plug.

The current crop of aftermarket parts are designed to work with 9 out of 10 japanese bikes.  Sometimes, you get to be the lucky 1 that has to modify to make work.

My fix for the triple shot espresso build was pretty simple.  Just made a jumper wire with spade terminals to stuff in the sockets.  Giving the voltage regulator a common grounded circuit to work with.  Iirc i backprobed the ground of the field coil and it all came to life.

[American Locomotive]

Have you tried using a standard lead-acid battery to verify it's functionality? Lithium batteries have very low internal resistance, so they can accept a lot of charging current and pull the system voltage down.

[rupaulpierce]

Have you tried using a standard lead-acid battery to verify it's functionality? Lithium batteries have very low internal resistance, so they can accept a lot of charging current and pull the system voltage down.

Tried a sealed AGM, no difference. Should probably stick with that one for tests until I find the problem though.


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[scottly]

These measurements were taken with an earthx lithium, and the combo reg/rec available on 4into1.


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No, this is a cheap Chinese reg/rec that LOOKS like the one from 4into1.
Do a test: connect one meter directly to the battery terminals, and another meter connected to the reg black and white wires. With the key on, the voltage reading on the meter connected to the regulator should be very low. This voltage will increase as the regulator starts "throttling" down the charging. Start the bike and note the battery voltage as well as the reg voltage. If the reg voltage is much greater than the key on test, when the battery is at less than, say 13.9V, the reg is set for a too low voltage.

[rupaulpierce]

I reset everything to start from the beginning. Here is the previous reg test with a freshly charged AGM battery and stock components.
Even with the combo rec/rec and lithium batt out of the picture, it doesn't seem like I'm getting charging voltage.


Battery voltage key off: 12.5V
Battery voltage key on: 12.2V
Vreg black/green key on: 11.71V
Vreg white/green key on: 11.40V

Batt pos/vreg black key on: .432V
Batt neg/vreg green key on: 43.4mV

Voltage across batt terminals key off: 12.47

Voltage across batt terminals key on: 12.17

Voltage across batt terminals 2000rpm: 12.08

Voltage across batt terminals 4000rpm: 12.10

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[TwoTired]

So you vreg is supplying voltage to the alternator field. And, you know that voltage is reaching the field coil, yes?  Now you have to see why the power the alternator is making, is not getting out to the system.

This means measureing the three yellows.
Either do an ohms test  for the stator wires (dead system) at the vreg connections.
Or, measure the AC output coming from the alt to the vreg,

Next, you will measure each of the six diodes to verify they will only pass power in the direction of the battery. 12 tests using the diode test function on your meter, between each yellow to green and each yellow to red, repeat with probes reversed.

Have you verified that the engine has a solid electrical connection to the battery NEG terminal?

Cheers,

[rupaulpierce]

Re-tested stator and field coils at the plug.

A-B: .9 ohms
A-C: .8 ohms
B-A: .9 ohms

Green-White: 5ohms

Ohms test on yellow wires. According to clymer, 5ohms is spec for field coil.

I’ll do the diode test this evening.



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[TwoTired]

To be thorough, verify that no yellow has continuity with frame or motor case.

Cheers,

[rupaulpierce]

To be thorough, verify that no yellow has continuity with frame or motor case.

Cheers,

Infinite resistance on all three yellow wires between battery ground strap at both rectifier plug and alternator plug.

I also previously checked the grounds, and all checked out with no resistance.

[rupaulpierce]

Either do an ohms test  for the stator wires (dead system) at the vreg connections.
Or, measure the AC output coming from the alt to the vreg,

Next, you will measure each of the six diodes to verify they will only pass power in the direction of the battery. 12 tests using the diode test function on your meter, between each yellow to green and each yellow to red, repeat with probes reversed.

Both rectifiers pass the diode test. I also double checked AC output. With everything connected, bike running, each yellow wire is putting out approx. 10V AC.

Also, with the stock set up and the white regulator wire disconnected from the regulator and jumped directly to the battery positive, I'm only getting 12.1V across the battery terminals even at 4K rpm.

[TwoTired]

10v AC is too low, should be more like 30V.   Like it has a weak Magnetic field.  Are you sure 12V is actually getting all the way to the field coil?  There are connectors under the sprocket housing.  What RPM did you measure 10V?

Cheers,

[rupaulpierce]

10v AC is too low, should be more like 30V.   Like it has a weak Magnetic field.  Are you sure 12V is actually getting all the way to the field coil?  There are connectors under the sprocket housing.  What RPM did you measure 10V?

Cheers,

10V at idle. I have not checked the bullet connectors under the sprocket housing, but running out of other things to check so I’ll pull it.



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