Author Topic: Total Power Loss  (Read 1877 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline DuckFan

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 34
Total Power Loss
« on: May 24, 2018, 09:18:13 pm »
So I rode my 1976 Honda CB750F on Tuesday and everything was great! I rode it home, parked it, turned it to "P" and left it for the evening. I go to ride it on Wednesday and it's TOTALLY dead. I checked the battery and was running 7.34V. I set the battery on a trickle charger for the day and tested the battery at 12.86V. I pop it back in, turn the key, and still NO power! I checked the fuses and they're fine. I recently rewired the bike with a new harness so I don't know why I have absolutely no power. I am at my whits end with this bike.

Offline robvangulik

  • Honda Fourever
  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,414
Re: Total Power Loss
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2018, 12:23:00 am »
You killed the battery by leaving it overnight with parking light on.
Go buy a new battery and start riding!

Offline dave500

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 16,945
  • WHAT?no gravy?
Re: Total Power Loss
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2018, 01:12:33 am »
if the battery was older and fully pancaked like yours they seldom recover,it might show a decent no load voltage but under load they fail and cant crank,however you say you have no power but good fuses and a new loom?recheck your connections you should at least have the oil and neutral lights glowing even with a taxed battery.

Offline innovativems

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,029
    • Innovative MotoSports
Re: Total Power Loss
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2018, 05:49:08 am »
Grab a test light and work your way from the battery back.  If you aren't getting power then it's gotta be a connection if your battery has juice


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
2007 KTM 990 adv
2003 Honda RC51
2000 Yamaha YSR50
1978 Honda Express
1975 Honda CB400f
1974 Honda CB350f
1974 Kawi H2
1974 Honda CB550f
1971 Kawi h1
1973 Kawi h1
1974 gt 550
1974 gt550

Offline Bankerdanny

  • Eventually I will be old enough in reality to be
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 7,617
  • Endeavor to persevere
Re: Total Power Loss
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2018, 06:07:49 am »
The ignition switches on the F and later K bikes that are located between the gauges are known to fail. It happened to me with my '77 550K, which uses the same switch. The battery might be dead, but it could be the switch. You need to confirm that you are getting power out of the switch. I don't have my 750F wiring diagram handy, but with the switch on you need to test for continuity between power in (red wire I think) and the brown wire out that goes to the lights.
"The problem with quotes on the Internet is that you never know if they're true" - Abraham Lincoln

Current: '76 CB750F. Previous:  '75 CB550F, 2007 Yamaha Vino 125 Scooter, '75 Harley FXE Superglide, '77 GL1000, '77 CB550k, '68 Suzuki K10 80, '68 Yamaha YR2, '69 BMW R69S, '71 Honda SL175, '02 Royal Enfield Bullet 500, '89 Yamaha FJ1200

Offline Bankerdanny

  • Eventually I will be old enough in reality to be
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 7,617
  • Endeavor to persevere
Re: Total Power Loss
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2018, 02:38:47 pm »
Now that I have access to the wiring diagram on my work computer, red is power in to the switch. So make sure you have continuity from the main fuse to the red wire into the switch.

Then turn the switch to "run" and you should also have continuity from red to both the black and brown and brown/white wires.

The flaw in the switch is that the spade terminals that send power out of the switch are riveted in place and the power in terminal can vibrate loose over time causing an intermittent  connection. If the red terminal loses connection then you have a total power failure because that one wire supplies everything on the bike through the switch except for starter power. And even then it energizes the solenoid, so no power through the switch from the red wire = dead as a doornail bike.
"The problem with quotes on the Internet is that you never know if they're true" - Abraham Lincoln

Current: '76 CB750F. Previous:  '75 CB550F, 2007 Yamaha Vino 125 Scooter, '75 Harley FXE Superglide, '77 GL1000, '77 CB550k, '68 Suzuki K10 80, '68 Yamaha YR2, '69 BMW R69S, '71 Honda SL175, '02 Royal Enfield Bullet 500, '89 Yamaha FJ1200

Offline American Locomotive

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 199
    • sohc4
Re: Total Power Loss
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2018, 09:43:20 pm »
Did you check the battery voltage with the key on? Chances are you completely smoked the battery by leaving it in "P" for a whole day.

Offline DuckFan

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 34
Re: Total Power Loss
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2018, 10:04:20 pm »
So I tested my battery again and it's holding voltage over time (12.73V). I also tested continuity from the battery cable through the solenoid, through the reg/rectifier combo, through the fuse box, and to the ignition switch. I have continuity through everything with the red wire. Could the switch itself be bad?

Offline dave500

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 16,945
  • WHAT?no gravy?
Re: Total Power Loss
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2018, 12:52:56 am »
check replies #4 and #5 bankerdanny covered that.

Offline DuckFan

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 34
Re: Total Power Loss
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2018, 12:05:58 pm »
So I tested continuity at the switch from the red wire prong with the following results:
Key Off: No continuity to any wires
Key On: Continuity at the black wire prong, No other continuity
Key "P": Continuity at the brown wire prong on the bottom right, No other continuity

I get not having any lights since I don't have continuity at ay of the other wires in any scenario, but I should be able to start it since I have continuity going to the black wire right?

Offline Bankerdanny

  • Eventually I will be old enough in reality to be
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 7,617
  • Endeavor to persevere
Re: Total Power Loss
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2018, 04:05:40 pm »
So the next test is how many volts at the black wire with the key on?
"The problem with quotes on the Internet is that you never know if they're true" - Abraham Lincoln

Current: '76 CB750F. Previous:  '75 CB550F, 2007 Yamaha Vino 125 Scooter, '75 Harley FXE Superglide, '77 GL1000, '77 CB550k, '68 Suzuki K10 80, '68 Yamaha YR2, '69 BMW R69S, '71 Honda SL175, '02 Royal Enfield Bullet 500, '89 Yamaha FJ1200

Offline MoMo

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,275
  • Ride like you're invisible
Re: Total Power Loss
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2018, 05:48:25 pm »
You need voltage at the black/white wires to the coil. Somewhere(kill switch?) you've lost a link from black to b/w

Offline DuckFan

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 34
Re: Total Power Loss
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2018, 09:33:02 pm »
Sorry for the slow response. I checked the battery which was indeed bad but a new one did not solve the issue. I replaced the ignition switch and still no resolution. I switched around some fuses and finally, got power!! I decided to replace my old fuse holder with a new atm blade style and everything works great... except now my left turn signal and brake light seem to have switched function. Any ideas on how that could have happened?

Offline DuckFan

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 34
Re: Total Power Loss
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2018, 08:16:04 pm »
Don't everyone answer at the same time

Offline dave500

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 16,945
  • WHAT?no gravy?
Re: Total Power Loss
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2018, 10:06:46 pm »
bad earth somewhere?

Offline MoMo

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,275
  • Ride like you're invisible
Re: Total Power Loss
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2018, 11:39:20 pm »
left t/s is an orange wire, brake is green/yellow.  Wiring switched somehwere?

Offline DuckFan

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 34
Re: Total Power Loss
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2018, 09:35:33 pm »
Fixed! I re-routed my orange/white wire to the ground that carries the headlight. I got my electric starter back in the process. Thanks guys!

Offline MoMo

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,275
  • Ride like you're invisible
Re: Total Power Loss
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2018, 09:39:56 pm »
Glad everything works but.....................orange/white is supposed to be left running light....Larry

Offline piefairy

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 175
Re: Total Power Loss
« Reply #18 on: June 21, 2018, 07:07:40 pm »
You may/may not want to go through your bikes wiring... It sounds to be a bit of a hodgepodge like mine was, turn the blinker on to make the headlights work ect... But thats just my 2c, I still have a few more wiring ghosts to work out on my project.

Offline DuckFan

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 34
Re: Total Power Loss
« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2018, 11:41:08 am »
Yeah, I'm definitely less concerned with the lights so long as they work correctly for now. I'm more worried about my charging system now. I replaced the regulator/rectifier with a new combo unit and all of the wiring from the new wiring harness to the wires that connect to the stator and it does charge, I just don't think by enough since I consistently lose battery voltage. At idle (1.6k rpm) it's at 12.43v with the multimeter measuring voltage between the battery terminals. At 2k rpm it goes to 12.53v but at 3k rpm, it only goes to 12.56v. I've checked all of the external connections and they are clean but I haven't cracked into the case yet to inspect the stator itself. Although it is extremely rare, do you guys think I have a stator issue???

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,805
Re: Total Power Loss
« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2018, 01:28:47 pm »
The alternator only makes about 1/3 of peak power at idle speed.  The bike generally loses voltage at the battery at idle, particularly if the lights are on.
The battery gets recharged slowly when the alternator is revved.  This is why you check the charging system with a known good fully charged battery, as it can take 10 hours or more at rev speed to restore a depleted battery.

Further, when the battery is down on charge, instantaneous readings are misleading.  Because it will (should) only rise slowly.  The charging system is sized to only provide 1-2 amps to the battery for recharge, while the battery can expend 25-100 amps for the starting motor.  So, it takes a while for the voltage to come up.  You CAN watch for voltage trend changes over, say 30 seconds of good alternator RPM.  And/or turn the lights off by switch or fuse extraction for lighting.  This makes more power from alternator available for battery refilling.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline DuckFan

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 34
Re: Total Power Loss
« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2018, 02:08:52 pm »
Thanks, TwoTired! I knew that it didn't really charge at idle but I didn't realize it was that low. I must be spending too much time in traffic. So is my battery voltage within normal limits enough to be ok or do I need to poke around a little more?

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,805
Re: Total Power Loss
« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2018, 08:04:27 pm »
If you are unsure of your charging system, then check it.

Charging system methodical verification checks, CB750, CB550, CB500, CB400, and CB350.

Begin with problem verification and characterization with recorded data.
A -- Fully charge a known good battery.  Let it rest for 2 hours, off the charger, and measure the battery voltage.  (Target is 12.6-12.8V.)
B -- Start the bike and measure the battery voltage at idle, 2000, 3000, 4000, and 5000 rpm.
C -- Repeat the measurements of B with lighting off.

The above tests identify charging system success, failure, or degree of "faulty".  The success voltages are listed in the Shop manual.

D -- Assuming the above indicates faulty, do check the RECTIFIER diodes with a diode tester or ohmmeter capable of testing diodes and uses more than .7 volts to make the test(s).
Of the twelve test made in D, six must read low ohms and six must read very high ohms.

E- assuming no faults were found in D,  Measure the white and green wires disconnected from the REGULATOR.  CB750s should 6.8 ohms - ish,  CB550s/350s/ and 400s should read 4.9 ohms- ish.

F- If there are no bullet holes or road rash/divots on the alternator case, the stator is probably good.  But, you can check for yellow to yellow continuity (.35 ohms) among all the wires, and that no yellow wire has continuity to the engine case.

G- Assuming no faults found in D, E, and F, measure the disconnected terminals of the REGULATOR.  The black and white terminals should measure zero ohms (subtract meter error if there is any).  Higher than Zero ohms, indicates internal contact contamination needing cleaning and attention per shop manual.

H - Assuming D, E, F, and G have not found faults. We can verify all the of the charging system minus the regulator is functioning correctly, by using a temporary jumper to connect the disconnected white wire (normally attached to the REGULATOR) and connecting the White directly to the the battery POS terminal.  Repeat the B and C tests.  However, if at any time the battery voltage rises above 15V, stop the test.  Such an indication would prove the charging system capable of maintaining a known good battery.  If this test never achieves 15V, then there is a wire/connector issue in either the ground path leading back to the battery NEG terminal, a wiring/ connector issue withe the rectifier RED path to the battery POS terminal, or you made a mistake in D through G.

I - (not used, can be confused with L)

J -  The only parts that remain to prove or expose are the REGULATOR (in active mode) and the electrical path between the battery POS terminal and the black wire that connects to the REGULATOR.

K - Lying to and starving the regulator
The regulator can only do its job correctly if it gets a proper voltage report of true battery voltage status.  The Vreg monitors the Black wire for this status.  Measuring the voltage lost between the Battery terminals and the Vreg connections identifies problems that are not really the charging system's fault.
Two connection paths must be checked, the Battery POS terminal to the Black wire connection at the VReg, and the Battery NEG terminal to the Green wire connection to the Vreg.  A volt meter can measure these losses directly by placing a probe between the two identified points, Black path and then the green path.  The numbers are summed and the error seen by the Vreg quantified.  Anything over .5V loss is cause for concern and anything over 1V is a certain issue to be corrected.  Each connector, terminal, fuse clip, or switch in the pathway can cause voltage reporting loss.

The regulator also passes the received voltage on to to the Alternator field coil to create a magnetic field within the alternator,  The voltage level determines the strength of the magnetic field and the maximum output capability of the alternator.  Therefore, starving  the Vreg of true battery voltage leads to reduced max output capability of the alternator.

L - regulator operation/verification.
  The Vreg sends voltage to the alternator field in response to measured voltage which is battery state of charge.  Any voltage at the battery of less than 13.5V sends full black wire voltage to the alternator's white wire.  The alternator output will vary with RPM, even if "told" to produce max power by the Vreg.  If the alternator has enough RPM to overcome system load, any excess power is routed to the battery which will raise the battery voltage (slowly if depleted and rapidly if nearly full).   When the battery reaches 14.5V, the regulator reduces the voltage to the alternator, reducing output strength and preventing battery overcharge.  If the battery exceeds 14.7V, the regulator clamps the alternator field coil power to zero (0V), effective shutting off the alternator.

Because, there is electrical load from the system, an alternator that is not producing power allows the battery to deplete and the voltage falls.  The Vreg responds by turning the alternator back on in accordance with battery state/ charge level.

The Vreg state changes can be monitored/verified by observing the battery voltage state, and the White wire to the alternator field.  (Two meters are handy for this.)  The "trip" voltages can be adjusted with the adjust screw, while changing engine RPM and electrical load that the bike presents to the battery/charging system to "make" the battery reach the voltage levels need for the set trip points.  IE. with load reduced (lighting off) and the engine above 2500 RPM, a charged battery will attain 14.5 V.  Anything above that and the adjust screw needs to be backed out to keep the battery safe from harm.
The shop manual outlines bench set up mechanical adjustments that should be performed on unknown or tampered units.  These should be resolved before final trip point adjust tuning.

Note that while the system is working, the Vreg can change states rapidly before your very eyes., changing 5 times or more while you blink.  Therefore, you may have to mentally average values measured on the White wire if your selected meter doesn't do that for you.

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.