Topic: I'm a bit pleased with my mother country today

[vfourfreak]

Ireland has taken another enlightened (imho) step forward today.

To be clear, I'm not a great fan of abortion, but I don't see that I would have the right to impose my views on others. Especially when it concerns women and their control over their own bodies.

I'm also Catholic, but rejoice in the hugely diminished power of my church in running the affairs of state.

To put some things in context; In Ireland until app 1980 contraception was illegal, until 1995 divorce was not permitted and until today abortion was illegal yet happened anyway by virtue of a voyage to Liverpool.

Progress.

Kev

[754]

 Those kind of rules could drive you to drink....

[Stev-o]

Those kind of rules could drive you to drink....

...and the drink may cause the need of an abortion!

[carnivorous chicken]

A great step forward, congrats. Some horrendous stuff in the last few years -- hopefully this will help put an end to it, or at least reduce it.

[Scott S]

 This borders on the "No Politics" rule. But since we recently had a long running thread about religion, I'll defer this to the other mods.
 
 I just ask that everyone conduct themselves as Gentlemen (and Women), please.

[dave500]

wow contraception illegal?so I couldn't enter the country because of my vasectomy?

[vfourfreak]

This borders on the "No Politics" rule. But since we recently had a long running thread about religion, I'll defer this to the other mods.
 
 I just ask that everyone conduct themselves as Gentlemen (and Women), please.

This is not in any way "political" .

It concerns human beings.

Kev

[bear]

Well said Uncle Kev.
And thank's for your tolerance Stev.

[demon78]

Always wondered about that Kev in this day and age with the knowledge that's so freely available from various sources and the realization that shame is as destructive as it is and that women are becoming "human" how an enlightened country like Ireland could hold with a custom from the Dark Ages. I hope that the women of your country will stand up to the backlash from the dark side. I think of the two daughters I helped raise and I think the consensus would be #$%* off if they were given a hard time about looking after themselves. They are both married with children, by the way.                           
Bill the demon

[Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er]

Does this mean the women will get to vote also? 

[vfourfreak]

Does this mean the women will get to vote also? 

Only if they are pretty 

Really though the legislation in Ireland was hugely repressive, frankly amongst the worst in the world. While we will all sing at the drop of a hat, and talk till the wee hours over a drop of uisce beatha, there has been since independance an anti woman regime in existance. My country has never been a warm house for a woman with a crisis pregnancy. Please don't simply take my word for it, check out for example the case of Anne Lovett (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann_Lovett) , or the infamous "x case"(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attorney_General_v._X) wher a 14 year old girl who was pregnant as a result of rape was denied the "right to travel", more recently the case of Savita Halappanavar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Savita_Halappanavar), or even historically the existance of Magdalene laundries (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalene_Laundries_in_Ireland) and the so called "Mother and baby homes" for example Tuam (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bon_Secours_Mother_and_Baby_Home) .

It was sh1t like this, along with our propensity to kill each other in large numbers that drove me to leave Ireland, originally in 1982. I'll probably never go back to live there again, as the man said "I went out for a walk and I never went back", but it does give me a huge deal of satisfaction to see outdated and repressive legislation being replaced by progressive and enlightened laws. Just in the last few years there has been the Smoking ban, provision for same sex marriage and other moves to make the country safe and accommodating. Would you believe that as recently as the mid 90s it was illegal for a doctor in Ireland to give the telephone number or address of an institution in the UK where an abortion could be procured ? Imagine having a 14 year old daughter, pregnant as a result of rape (or simply just with an unwanted pregnancy), she goes to her medical practitioner who says sorry, I cannot help you ?? Thankfully, the internet came along. Even in Ireland. When the sale of contraceptives was first authorised (1980 not 1908), it was possible only by getting a prescription from your doctor, who had to satisfy himself that you were married, and then by making your purchase in a pharmacy. You know, you could not make this up !!

Apologies for the rant, but I am a fervent champion of those who are unfairly treated, in this case app 50% of the population of my home country.

And thank you for your forebearance Scott.

Kev

[vfourfreak]

Always wondered about that Kev in this day and age with the knowledge that's so freely available from various sources and the realization that shame is as destructive as it is and that women are becoming "human" how an enlightened country like Ireland could hold with a custom from the Dark Ages. I hope that the women of your country will stand up to the backlash from the dark side. I think of the two daughters I helped raise and I think the consensus would be #$%* off if they were given a hard time about looking after themselves. They are both married with children, by the way.                           
Bill the demon

I hear you Bill. My beautiful daughter will be 19 in four weeks time. Anyone tries to cause her grief will find me on their case, ready to recall my skills from a previous life. Think of Marko from Tropojë meeting his Liam Neeson 

Kev

[Yamahawk]

I agree that a woman has the right to choose what happens to their own bodies, and that includes the choice to have sex whether it is unprotected or to use contraception...
However... a child has their Own body, therefore, a baby in the womb isn't the Mother's Body anymore, it is a unique, independent body that lives within the Mother's body. To carry the logic of being able to kill another human being that lives inside your body isn't at all logical, but illogical. It is rationalization of the inconvenience of having the responsibility to use contraception or protection of some kind when a couple has sex.
Now I understand that there are circumstances where rape, incest, and the like occur. Abortion in no way diminishes the trauma of those actions, but actually adds to it, by killing the product of such crimes, creating a post-traumatic stress and guilt in those who go through such a procedure.
We could envision mothers not wanting their children even after they were born, and then they do give them up for adoption... would the logic say it is correct to kill an already born child because the mother didn't want them? I mean, they came from the mother's body. We do know that it is not right to kill a born child, yet we are ok with the death of an unborn child... if the mother says so.
     I think that adoption is the answer in all the cases where a mother doesn't want their baby.
And Kev, thank for bringing this up. We have an abortion clinic just 6 blocks down from me here in Toledo, and they are packed with young mothers who are killing their unborn children. I prefer to not call an unborn child a 'fetus' or 'tissue', as this is what those potential mothers are told their baby is, dehumanizing the existence of their child to where they can allow them to be killed.
PASS, or Post Abortion Stress Syndrome, is the same as PTSD. It occurs in a LARGE percentage of women and young girls who go through an abortion. The same things are still being told to the woman about their unborn child...
This link is a little dated, but still relevant, as people don't change, just their circumstance does.
http://www.dianedew.com/trauma.htm
Some good info and quotes from former Surgeon General, Dr. C. Everett Koop also...
http://www.abort73.com/abortion/post_abortion_syndrome/

I see pro abortion protests there at the clinic and it is amazing to look at signs that state "I have a right to my own box" referring to their womb, or vagina lol.  And the woman is right. They have a right to their own Body. The scenario changes when they become pregnant, though... as now there is an independent body living within their own body... and they have a responsibility to make sure that person within them is protected... just like a Mother has the responsibility to take care of the children they bring into this world.
Charlie

[vfourfreak]

Hi Charlie, yes of course there is an anti abortion viewpoint, and I respect the arguments, especially having had personal experience. I think you will find that both sides had ample opportunity to put forward their views in Ireland before the referendum, both sides were heard, and the population voted as they did.

I am a quasi devout Catholic, a previous candidate for the priesthood, but au fond a champion for what is right in terms of basic human rights. The situation that prevailed in Ireland was not right, it failed too many women.

Kev

[flatlander]

yamahawk, this vote is essentially not to impose a specific opinion on an entire population but give them the freedom and responsibility to decide on their own course of action, depending on their own circumstances. as should be the case in any society that values liberty of their citizens vs. oppression.

of course there will be cases where abortion can be justified and those where it can be abused but what entitles individuals such as you and i or the lawmaker to make general blanket statements? i totally agree that abortion is a serious matter with serious consequences, that probably some framework of counselling etc. is needed and maybe even some more detailed legislation, but all that can only be developed now after this referendum and after the respective amendment gets officially revoked.

i lived in ireland during the 90s and into the early 2000s, there have been dramatic changes in legislation and how government views society and vice versa, most of which i do welcome. the country is really coming out of the dark ages.

[Yamahawk]

yamahawk, this vote is essentially not to impose a specific opinion on an entire population but give them the freedom and responsibility to decide on their own course of action, depending on their own circumstances. as should be the case in any society that values liberty of their citizens vs. oppression.

of course there will be cases where abortion can be justified and those where it can be abused but what entitles individuals such as you and i or the lawmaker to make general blanket statements? i totally agree that abortion is a serious matter with serious consequences, that probably some framework of counselling etc. is needed and maybe even some more detailed legislation, but all that can only be developed now after this referendum and after the respective amendment gets officially revoked.

i lived in ireland during the 90s and into the early 2000s, there have been dramatic changes in legislation and how government views society and vice versa, most of which i do welcome. the country is really coming out of the dark ages.

....By the Blood of Saint Menses, are ye from Ireland?? 
A blanket statement is made with laws that prohibit murder, rape, etc. every day. So, are lawmakers wrong to do so? I mean, could they say that it is permissible to kill your born children under certain circumstances? (I brought you into this world, I can take you out!!) Of course not. would rape be permissible , and not included in a blanket law? Of course not. There are other options than abortion.

Being involved with CISM (Critical Incident Stress Management),  I know the need for counseling (debriefing) someone in a PTS situation, and when a mother chooses to terminate an unwanted pregnancy, there is an immediate need for counseling and even With that, there is still the knowledge of their actions.

Ireland has long been in conflict, and for the lief.. oops sorry, life of me, I cannot understand how two allegedly Christ-following groups like the Protestant and Catholic, can come to violence over what the other does. I mean, really... if you are a Christ-follower, you wouldn't hate your Brother... Really. Neither side is right in that respect. And I understand what oppression has come from the Church in the name of God... but, that isn't God, that is mankind and our fallen nature that oppresses others.
I believe that this issue goes to the depth of human nature... and that's pretty deep. There is an answer, but it doesn't come from our nature, but from a higher One.
This world, as Cal stated, is going to Hell in a Handbasket, and is evidenced every day with what we as human beings make as choices. I made the choice to honor God, and follow Jesus Christ as Lord. God gives us this choice. We should allow our babies to do likewise...
As Joshua said,
"And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”
Charlie

[vfourfreak]

Ireland has long been in conflict, and for the lief.. oops sorry, life of me, I cannot understand how two allegedly Christ-following groups like the Protestant and Catholic, can come to violence over what the other does. I mean, really... if you are a Christ-follower, you wouldn't hate your Brother... Really. Neither side is right in that respect. And I understand what oppression has come from the Church in the name of God... but, that isn't God, that is mankind and our fallen nature that oppresses others.

Encore bonjour Charlie,

I need to correct you a little. To say that the strife in Ireland (hopefully over) was due to religious differences is simply being lazy. Please look for the real causes, but a debate about that here will certainly get this thread locked. PM me if you wish to have the viewpoint from someone who was there.

Kev

[Yamahawk]

Hehe yes I do know it is being lazy and will not pursue that part further. Anyway, thanks Kev!
Charlie

[flatlander]

A blanket statement is made with laws that prohibit murder, rape, etc. every day. So, are lawmakers wrong to do so? I mean, could they say that it is permissible to kill your born children under certain circumstances?

not quite. also those have nuances. take the case of "killing another human" which is mostly referred to as murder. what constitutes murder is quite precisely defined in legislation and by courts. and not all cases of killing another human constitute murder. there is a differentiation being applied even within the category of "murder". not even all convicted murderers get the same punishment either, which shows that the law does apply differentiation and does not make a blanket statement.

it's possible to imagine a situation where the law would permit you to kill your own child... think of a self defense scenario. not that it's a good thing but it shows that the idea that there is a "blanket law" against killing does not hold.

with the anti-abortion amendment being revoked, ireland gives herself the option to make such differentiation also in the case of abortion. as per the constitutional amendment, this was simply not possible before.
it does not automatically mean that there won't be other options, that all cases of abortion will be legal, or that there won't be any rules around it. fact is that we don't know yet what will come out of it as only from now on, society and the legislator can proceed to officially discuss and then decide the way forward - as it should be in a free country. before, this door was simply closed.

long story short, this referendum gives the country the opportunity to deal with the matter in a more mature way.

[vfourfreak]

[quote author=flatlander link=topic=172330.msg2006534#msg2006534 date=1527429923

long story short, this referendum gives the country the opportunity to deal with the matter in a more mature way.
[/quote]

Correct. The referendum result (but please remember no law has yet changed) says we have grown up as a nation, and thrown away dogma in preference to considered opinion. IMO a good result.

And I still remain a Catholic who objects in principle to abortion. But one who despises unfairness.

Kev

[Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er]

This will surely get this locked which is fine...…. but I take a different stance than some of us.

Breathing means murder. Prior to breathing means choice to abort a fetus. The pregnant person should have that choice, not another person.

[vfourfreak]

This will surely get this locked which is fine...…. but I take a different stance than some of us.

Breathing means murder. Prior to breathing means choice to abort a fetus. The pregnant person should have that choice, not another person.

May I add an observation ? Until yesterday no woman in the Republic of Ireland under the age of 53 had the opportunity to declare her stance on abortion in a way to change the law of the land .

Kev

[vfourfreak]

I hope I"m pushing an open door here :

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/today-i-no-longer-hang-my-head-in-shame-readers-react-to-abortion-vote-1.3510158

This is true democracy. Feckit, I wish I was there.

Kev

[Yamahawk]

Death... is when the heart Stops beating. SO ergo, Life begins when it Starts beating.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPHzknP7jNQ/youtube]

Charlie

[vfourfreak]

Meanwhile  I want to be with my wife :

Kev