Topic: I'm a bit pleased with my mother country today

[Mr. Mike]

So tell me,
When is ok to kill a baby in the Mothers womb?

Pregnancy due to rape or incestuous relations are minuscule in numbers, and certainly there are those situations where medically the termination for the mothers life may be an only option (I'm no MD, but they say it could happen). My belief is our culture has lost its keen sense of life being precious. Vast majority of abortions are simply due to carousing, drunkenness and the like. To call abortion a woman's health issue is a cheap excuse for the inconvenience of a momentary lack of self control resulting in pregnancy. ScottS is right (and thank you for letting this roll) this topic is just as hot as the "religious" thread.
When we're silent on the issues that affect society as a whole, evil triumphs (as is somebody's signature here). The baby has no voice but ours. Adoption is a great alternative.
Thank you to those who have stood here and voiced their pro life concerns, to us and (hopefully) their particular political state representatives to push back on unPlanned Parenthood and the use of billions of our tax dollars to murder innocent children. Yes it is a hot topic with a definite line between the two viewpoints...right and wrong.
I might suggest any reader here to view on YouTube the 45 minute video by Ray Comfort titled
"U Turn 180". Although it has mildly  "religious" theme, which it seems we can all tolerate (as "life" and God are inseparable), it has quite a compelling thought process to which college age men and women are introduced to.

[vfourfreak]

So tell me,
When is ok to kill a baby in the Mothers womb?

Pregnancy due to rape or incestuous relations are minuscule in numbers, and certainly there are those situations where medically the termination for the mothers life may be an only option (I'm no MD, but they say it could happen).

I gave several sources where, in my opinion, the case was clearly made that the present situation in Ireland simply does not work.

Please contact the husband or parents of Savita : https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/23/ireland-abortion-referendum-savita-father-galway

I was ashamed of Ireland then, but more proud now.

Kev

[demon78]

I will not go into the nuances, I have had the talk/discussion/raging argument with the 3 Women in my life and have said that I would support their decisions to the point of putting my life on the line for their right to make those choices, (My Duty) and any one that doesn't like it can visit the Holy Proctologist to get it removed, if and I say IF you think about this and there is a god then it's up to it and and the protagonist to sort out the rules/blame when it's time, not up to some jumped up, wanna be Shaman. Don't like that attitude, then the minute you can show me that humans have stopped killing other humans for any reason. I will be ready to change my mind. It is literally none of your goddam business. The Inquistion died a more than just death centuries ago.
My apology to the rest I find as I approach existential monobloc my sense of freedom becomes even more intense and as an atheist my choices are mine and if there is a god and I am wrong I am prepared to take the consequences, me no one else ME. To the shrill underlings #$%* off and don't bother me.
Bill the Demon.

[Scott S]

This is not in any way "political" .

It concerns human beings.

Kev

 This isn't political in the same way Yamahawk's thread wasn't about religion. Was there a vote? Was there campaigning on both sides?

Abortion should be legal so that it can be made available when appropriate. I'll let others decide what is appropriate because I don't force my personal beliefs, ethics and morals on others.

 Fixed that for ya.
 I really, really dislike discussions about politics and religion. And simply because I have "Moderator" under my profile pic, anything I do is often construed as support for one thing or the other.
 I recently got rid of my Facebook account for this very reason; too much politics, hatred, religion and ignorance. "It's my way or the wrong way!".

 The same entities that deride abortion also often deride education, contraceptives and post-natal care.

 Unless you have a vagina or can carry a child, you shouldn't be able to make laws about what you can do with said organs. Pro-Choice is NOT Pro-Abortion. It simply means that you can't tell me what to do based on your personal belief system. Just like BillTheDemon said, "It's none of your goddamn business".

 BTW, my personal beliefs state that you're all sentenced to eternal damnation unless you send me $100 and get a big "S" tattooed on your forehead. See how that works?

[vfourfreak]

Kev

[vfourfreak]

This is not in any way "political" .

It concerns human beings.

Kev

 This isn't political in the same way Yamahawk's thread wasn't about religion. Was there a vote? Was there campaigning on both sides?

Abortion should be legal so that it can be made available when appropriate. I'll let others decide what is appropriate because I don't force my personal beliefs, ethics and morals on others.

 Fixed that for ya.
 I really, really dislike discussions about politics and religion. And simply because I have "Moderator" under my profile pic, anything I do is often construed as support for one thing or the other.
 I recently got rid of my Facebook account for this very reason; too much politics, hatred, religion and ignorance. "It's my way or the wrong way!".

 The same entities that deride abortion also often deride education, contraceptives and post-natal care.

 Unless you have a vagina or can carry a child, you shouldn't be able to make laws about what you can do with said organs. Pro-Choice is NOT Pro-Abortion. It simply means that you can't tell me what to do based on your personal belief system. Just like BillTheDemon said, "It's none of your goddamn business".

 BTW, my personal beliefs state that you're all sentenced to eternal damnation unless you send me $100 and get a big "S" tattooed on your forehead. See how that works?

Thanks Scott.

I've nothing more to add ,but we have had a healthy , informed discussion. Thank you all.

Kev

[vfourfreak]

And I love Manchester !

Kev

[demon78]

By the way Kev I'm not against you or any one else it's just every one thinks that it's their business it's not, I recently have run into this I'm getting ready to move home so I can die at home and social workers/care coordinators/nurses have shown up and fussed about with questionaires/pamphlets and the questions that they all ask are important yes but the main one is are you suicidal, are you depressed, my answer of course is mildly (I've been told I'm going to die) and of course it's do you want counselling ? Answer, for what ? Depression answer, ah hell no "I always look on the bright side of life" and then we get to where every one looks around for the shot gun (traditional I believe) and sharp things, so I very carefully point out a conversation that I had with an old Dr. buddy of mine about if your going to do it, across the Carotid artery with a rusty tomato can lid and in a minute and a half you're gone, then all the shrill voices that are trying to tell you what to do/manipulate you are quiet or the the big one says you've been bad. Either way your decision and your consequences. Same as the ladies they have to live with it I don't, of course it would piss off my neighbours to have a demonstration circling my mailbox with signs saying you can't do that, but I would think it's hilarious. Any how it's great that Ireland has done a sane thing.
Bill the demon

[demon78]

Cal I would say to that yes the father had better be there but unless he's going to carry the child for 50% of the time his say has less weight. It still means that an repressive anti female law has a chance to be corrected and for that yeah.
Bill the demon.

[carnivorous chicken]

Seconding Scott S -- really, we're a bunch of men, some of whom think they should tell women what to do with their bodies.

In the United States, federal dollars do not go toward abortion. Planned Parenthood's funding and accounting makes sure their other health programs -- the vast majority by far, including breast cancer and STD screening -- are separate.

The discussions about forcing women to carry to term in the case of incest and rape is really disturbing.

In my experience (including working with Planned Parenthood) the people who are most vehemently against abortion don't do much to promote alternatives, such as birth control, nor do they offer anything to women in the form of care for a child for 18 years. Some are also vehemently pro-death penalty, an irony I will never understand. The ironic thing is many of the "pro-life" crowd's prefered policies -- no sex education, no discussion of birth control -- actually increases the rate of abortions. And with moves to outlaw abortions, the women who seek them face increasing health risks from back alley procedures.

Against abortion? Don't have one.

** I should add that everyone on here knows women who have had abortions, although many or most don't know that fact. I certainly do. And the notion that abortion causes some kind of PTSD trauma is simply not true. It's a difficult choice, nobody is really "pro-abortion" but rather some choose to respect a difficult decision.

[vfourfreak]

By the way Kev I'm not against you or any one else it's just every one thinks that it's their business it's not, I recently have run into this I'm getting ready to move home so I can die at home and social workers/care coordinators/nurses have shown up and fussed about with questionaires/pamphlets and the questions that they all ask are important yes but the main one is are you suicidal, are you depressed, my answer of course is mildly (I've been told I'm going to die) and of course it's do you want counselling ? Answer, for what ? Depression answer, ah hell no "I always look on the bright side of life" and then we get to where every one looks around for the shot gun (traditional I believe) and sharp things, so I very carefully point out a conversation that I had with an old Dr. buddy of mine about if your going to do it, across the Carotid artery with a rusty tomato can lid and in a minute and a half you're gone, then all the shrill voices that are trying to tell you what to do/manipulate you are quiet or the the big one says you've been bad. Either way your decision and your consequences. Same as the ladies they have to live with it I don't, of course it would piss off my neighbours to have a demonstration circling my mailbox with signs saying you can't do that, but I would think it's hilarious. Any how it's great that Ireland has done a sane thing.
Bill the demon

Hi Bill mate

yes, I think Ireland has done a sane thing, possibly it was best to leave the running of the country to a new generation.

Now personally, as I will  presently be stateless, can I drop by your house before I cruise by Kelowna to see Frank ?

If all that goes well, Australia beckons.

Kev

[demon78]

Ah Kev the second song "Whiskey in the Jar" Whiskey is I supposed why we don't Celt's rule this mud ball. I had a thought about revolution perhaps we should combine the Kildares and Clandonia (the bare assed oatmeal savages) pick an epicentre and let the world tremble.
The Muslims want Jihad. Hah
Bill the demon.

[demon78]

You are more than welcome but be aware that I could be 2000 miles away from Frank in the hinterlands of Ontario
Bill the demon.

[vfourfreak]

Bill,

"whiskey" is only a bastard British term for our glorious Irish "uisce beatha". To give it the correct translation : "water of life".

I'd love to lift a glass with you.

Slan go foill

kev

[vfourfreak]

You are more than welcome but be aware that I could be 2000 miles away from Frank in the hinterlands of Ontario
Bill the demon.

I'm laughing here, seeing as I'll probably commence my journey from the Philippines, 2000 miles here or there is not, as they say, material.

Kev

[American Locomotive]

Well, I would offer a dissenting perspective with respect to you, Bill.

If, said woman is impoverished, then State and Federal dollars pay for what might be a lifestyle choice. That is asking others to fund her choice. I'll agree, she can decide, but her decisions should be born at her expense, don't you think?

The thing is abortions are far cheaper to federal, state and local governments than providing assistance and care to a mother who might not have the means or will to care for that child. It costs the government ~$11,000/yr to send a child to school. Now tack on all kinds of other things a single mother might need help with from the government, and the costs will rapidly balloon out of control. What if she gives the child up for adoption? Now the government has to directly care for that child until someone adopts it. It costs the U.S. over $11 Billion/yr to deal with unintended pregnancies and raising the resulting children.

Even cheaper than all of that are contraceptives. For less than $1, you could prevent the need for an abortion in the first place. They should be handed out for free at high schools and colleges. Young people are going to have sex, there's no way around it. The best way to solve unwanted and teen pregnancy is to just let them have sex, but in a safe manner that will prevent a child from even being conceived.

Sorry, this is horse hockey and very recently proved to not be true. Despite their claims.

Please provide your sources.

My belief is our culture has lost its keen sense of life being precious. Vast majority of abortions are simply due to carousing, drunkenness and the like. To call abortion a woman's health issue is a cheap excuse for the inconvenience of a momentary lack of self control resulting in pregnancy.

That is simply not true. 45% of all pregnancies in this country are unintended. It's simply a lie to say that all of them are caused by drunken sex. It's pretty simple for a passionate couple to get lost in the moment, or to "forget" something, or whatever.

Thank you to those who have stood here and voiced their pro life concerns, to us and (hopefully) their particular political state representatives to push back on unPlanned Parenthood and the use of billions of our tax dollars to murder innocent children. Yes it is a hot topic with a definite line between the two viewpoints...right and wrong.

You say that as if Planned Parenthood has some kind of giant abortion furnace that we just funnel billions of dollars into every year to keep the fire roaring. Like every Planned Parenthood is some kind of massive abortion factory where pregnant women walk in one end, and dead babies come out of the other.

Except none of that is true. Planned Parenthood receives $300-500 Million dollars yearly from the government - not billions of dollars. Abortions represent 3% of Planned Parenthood's services (which translates into ~10-12% of people that go to planned parenthood getting an abortion). But even then, under federal law, government money cannot be used for abortions at Planned Parenthood. Your tax dollars can not be used to "murder children". Over 90% of Planned Parenthoods services are used to screen for STI/STDs ( to prevent horrible diseases like AIDS & HIV from spending), cancer screens, and other women's services. Of those other services, 34% of that is providing contraceptives - to prevent those unwanted pregnancies from occurring in the first place.

The facts are, even with Planned Parenthood offering abortions, the unintended pregnancy rate and abortion rate has been dropping steadily in this country for the past 40 years. The teen pregnancy rate is the lowest it has been since at least the 1940s. What's more is the abortion rate is now lower than it was BEFORE Roe vs. Wade made it legal country wide. Much of that is thanks to efforts by Planned Parenthood providing contraceptives. De-funding Planned Parenthood will just cause more abortions, more unwanted pregnancies and will undo 40 years of work they've done getting the numbers down to where they are today.

You guys are clamoring for Planned Parenthood to close up shop, when teen pregnancy and abortions are at historic lows. It's absolute lunacy.

[carnivorous chicken]

Seconding Scott S -- really, we're a bunch of men, some of whom think they should tell women what to do with their bodies. But all citizens are subject to certain federal laws governing our bodies, exempting a woman specifically for her choice to abort a fetus is purely one-sided. Who speaks for the child or father?

In the United States, federal dollars do not go toward abortion. Sorry, this is horse hockey and very recently proved to not be true. Despite their claims.

Planned Parenthood's funding and accounting makes sure their other health programs -- the vast majority by far, including breast cancer and STD screening -- are separate.

The discussions about forcing women to carry to term in the case of incest and rape is really disturbing. You’ll never find me in that camp. Precisely why I said it need be legal.

Against abortion? Don't have one. Ah, talk about irony and hypocrisy. Aren’t you the same lecturer who is vehemently anti-gun? Aren’t you the same person who wants all firearms outlawed? Yet, you are unwilling to live by your same “don’t buy one/get one” maxim. Hmmmm....

A perfectly classic example of an ardent supporter of what you want and willing to impose your preferences into other law abiding citizens. Why then are you unwilling to understand there is a counter-point to almost every social debate especially when it’s a Constituional RIGHT. Oh right, your flavor of the Constitution that fits your preferences... Enjoy Mexico.

Cal, if you want to try to restate my arguments about guns, please try to get it right. I'm not "anti-gun," I don't want "all firearms outlawed" -- I never said that so let's not get hysterical. I'm in favor of common sense gun laws and the regulating of certain types of guns, ammunition and magazines. Guns and abortion are very different subjects. That should be obvious but I guess I have to point it out. But to get back to the topic at hand...

I think allowing the women the right to choose for themselves isn't "imposing my preferences," and find it odd that people who want to impose their religiously-based beliefs against abortion on people who feel differently somehow don't feel they are imposing their beliefs. Again -- don't want abortion, don't have one. Nobody is imposing anything on anyone. It's pretty simple, actually.

Planned Parenthood does not use government funding for abortions. Anyone who says otherwise is spreading misinformation.

Again, as I stated, nobody is "pro-abortion" -- it's a difficult decision.

[jgger]

I hope I"m pushing an open door here :

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/today-i-no-longer-hang-my-head-in-shame-readers-react-to-abortion-vote-1.3510158

This is true democracy. Feckit, I wish I was there.

Kev

Ah yes, true democracy -2 wolves and a sheep deciding what is for dinner!

I for one think that if killing unborn children is progress then I want no part of it. Terminating a life seconds before the top of the head sees the light of day fits the criteria of not breathing.........so where is one to draw the line? Making abortion legal opens the door to a whole new nest of issues, it is indeed a very slippery slope.

[vfourfreak]

I hope I"m pushing an open door here :

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/today-i-no-longer-hang-my-head-in-shame-readers-react-to-abortion-vote-1.3510158

This is true democracy. Feckit, I wish I was there.

Kev

Ah yes, true democracy -2 wolves and a sheep deciding what is for dinner!

I for one think that if killing unborn children is progress then I want no part of it. Terminating a life seconds before the top of the head sees the light of day fits the criteria of not breathing.........so where is one to draw the line? Making abortion legal opens the door to a whole new nest of issues, it is indeed a very slippery slope.

No wolves or sheep, just the populace of the Republic of Ireland. They decided so their wish prevails. Please tell me your views about the previous system, I did in all fairness provide many sources for consideration.

Kev

[American Locomotive]

I for one think that if killing unborn children is progress then I want no part of it. Terminating a life seconds before the top of the head sees the light of day fits the criteria of not breathing.........so where is one to draw the line? Making abortion legal opens the door to a whole new nest of issues, it is indeed a very slippery slope.

Abortion has been legal in the U.S. since 1973, and even longer in most European countries. Western European countries have even lower abortion rates than the U.S..

[demon78]

It is obvious that we live under different life systems as an old Canadian I belong to a time and place that say's you are responsible for you actions I know that's unpopular now days but popularity has never been a moral or ethical system that works for extended periods. What apparently works now days is let other people tell you what to do. I fight against that, I say if you are of sound mind there are choices and there are consequences and the shrill yapping of the miniature pack doesn't really change that, so make your own decisions and live with it. If there is a god and it can see into your "heart" it will forgive mistakes, and if there isn't there is a certain satisfaction of pissing on the yappers. Ireland has just taken a step to where a segment of the population is advancing towards responsibility. #$%* it's 6. Time to figure out dinner
Bill the demon.

[jgger]

I hope I"m pushing an open door here :

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/today-i-no-longer-hang-my-head-in-shame-readers-react-to-abortion-vote-1.3510158

This is true democracy. Feckit, I wish I was there.

Kev

I can not speak to the previous conditions in Ireland,  I have never been there. But as for abortion being a "solution " for bad treatment of women to me it is a stretch, the child pays the price for one or two other people's actions/choices...........hence the slippery slope. The analogy of 2 wolves and a sheep fits because of the lack of integrity on both sides of the argument  (2 wolves ) and the masses inability to reason (sheep) ANY issue to a logical end.


Ah yes, true democracy -2 wolves and a sheep deciding what is for dinner!

I for one think that if killing unborn children is progress then I want no part of it. Terminating a life seconds before the top of the head sees the light of day fits the criteria of not breathing.........so where is one to draw the line? Making abortion legal opens the door to a whole new nest of issues, it is indeed a very slippery slope.

No wolves or sheep, just the populace of the Republic of Ireland. They decided so their wish prevails. Please tell me your views about the previous system, I did in all fairness provide many sources for consideration.

Kev

I

[vfourfreak]

I hope I"m pushing an open door here :

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/today-i-no-longer-hang-my-head-in-shame-readers-react-to-abortion-vote-1.3510158

This is true democracy. Feckit, I wish I was there.

Kev

I can not speak to the previous conditions in Ireland,  I have never been there. But as for abortion being a "solution " for bad treatment of women to me it is a stretch, the child pays the price for one or two other people's actions/choices...........hence the slippery slope. The analogy of 2 wolves and a sheep fits because of the lack of integrity on both sides of the argument  (2 wolves ) and the masses inability to reason (sheep) ANY issue to a logical end.


Ah yes, true democracy -2 wolves and a sheep deciding what is for dinner!

I for one think that if killing unborn children is progress then I want no part of it. Terminating a life seconds before the top of the head sees the light of day fits the criteria of not breathing.........so where is one to draw the line? Making abortion legal opens the door to a whole new nest of issues, it is indeed a very slippery slope.

No wolves or sheep, just the populace of the Republic of Ireland. They decided so their wish prevails. Please tell me your views about the previous system, I did in all fairness provide many sources for consideration.

Kev

I

II

[Scott S]

 BillthrDemon...... I am sorry to hear of your situation.  I recommend good whiskey (or libation of your choosing), road trips, reckless spending, hookers, blow, etc.
  Go out with a bang. #$%* 'em all. You can't take it with you.

[vfourfreak]

BillthrDemon...... I am sorry to hear of your situation.  I recommend good whiskey (or libation of your choosing), road trips, reckless spending, hookers, blow, etc.
  Go out with a bang. #$%* 'em all. You can't take it with you.

Steady on there Scott. We can't be havin Bill converted to being Irish. Or at worst an EU wastrel comme moi.

Kev