Author Topic: 78 550K new points and condenser problems (Read 1756 times)

ugmold550 · « **on:** June 03, 2018, 09:28:31 AM »

Short story had an issue restarting when warm, thought maybe condenser, overdue for a change anyway.

Bought new points condensers from 4into1. Set the Gap, using test light with switch on could not make the light come on 1-4, but did with 2-3. Checked connections, gap etc...nothing. To make matters worse I bent the 2-3 points with a wrench turning the crank (ordered a new 2-3 point)

Why is 1-4 not lighting?

Thanks.

-ugmold

Deltarider · « **Reply #1 on:** June 03, 2018, 09:38:34 AM »

What brand did you buy and what was the previous brand?
It all starts with setting the max. breakerpoints gap first. Do you know how it's done? Rotate the crank say 90^o further than the static 'F' mark and use the 0,4 mm feeler gauge. See to it that the forked connectors at the back of the breakerpoints do not accidentely ground.

ugmold550 · « **Reply #2 on:** June 03, 2018, 10:34:47 AM »

Doesn't seem to be a name on either set, the new set came from 4into1
https://www.ebay.com/itm/182412959127

I have had luck buying other parts from them.
The pivot point on the points sticks out further on the 2-3 side and I bent the plate using a wrench, so I just bought a 23mm socket which helps. Odd thing is I was going to swap back to the old p+c for 1-4 to see if they worked, the new ones seem to be ok, connections look good not touching back plate. I am going to adjust 1-4 and wait for the new points to come in.

So with light just coming on I should be between the T and F, adjusted by loosening the 3 screws.

Thanks.

Deltarider · « **Reply #3 on:** June 04, 2018, 07:41:39 AM »

Price indicates it's aftermarket, but some have no problems with them. If you time statically, the light should come on at the F mark (yellow). When it's a little bit more to the right, no problem. Yes you need to loosen the 3 screws somewhat to be able to adjust the plate. If it's difficult, you may read what TT has posted in the FAQ on radial play http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,5752.msg47539.html#msg47539 . Timing is done best dynamically however using a stroboscopic light because then the working of the advancer can also be examined. At 3000 RPM ignition should be fully advanced and the stroob's flashes are supposed to be between the two I I marks (blue and green). I myself prefer to have it a bit more to the right, but that's me.

ugmold550 · « **Reply #4 on:** June 04, 2018, 09:01:03 AM »

I really appreciate that post Delta. Helps clear things up. It will be a couple of days before I get the new right side points and I will report back.

spanners · « **Reply #5 on:** June 04, 2018, 12:08:39 PM »

''could not make the light come on between 1-4 but can on 2-4''

Thinking about this, I don't see how it can be anything but....
a) open circuit cable fault between points and coils,
b) a faulty coil going open circuit (maybe also when hot)
c) Bad + connection termination for 1-4 at the plug connection next to the coils.
or.... unlikely, but an internally shorted condenser for 1-4 (which is grounding coil 1-4 all the time)

If the points are still on the bike, put some bits of paper between each set of points to open circuit them. (If points removed already just connect your light to the wire ends in turn and ground).

Simply put, with the ignition on, and the engine kill switch in the run position, you should get your 12v test light on if you go between a set of points and ground. If you still don't on points 1-4, remove just the 1-4 the condenser wire and try again, if still no light take the condenser wire and the outgoing blue or yellow coil wire off and try again at the 1-4 coil wire alone loose. If still no light take the tank off, unplug the wire to 1-4 near the coils and check with your light on the same coloured wire (the one that physically comes out of the coil itself for 1-4). If still no light between that point and ground, check out the + cables junction connection that feeds the two coils. I think 12v+ are black /white stripe. If that connection looks good, then the 1-4 coil is open circuit. Confirm that with a multimeter.

With the paper still in, if you do have the light on, putting a screwdriver gently on /off between the points contacts to short them out should produce a little spark as you power up that coil. (don't touch the metal handle of the screwdriver when doing this or its going to make you jump)

After the above, if you suspect a cable problem, if you have a mulitmeter that does Ohms? and you have the tank off, remove the two wires (blue & yellow at the coils that run down to the points, check the 1-4 wire that between coil and points for open circuit or short circuit to ground. Either fault would stop the light coming on.

Hope that helps if you still have a problem,

ugmold550 · « **Reply #6 on:** June 04, 2018, 12:20:10 PM »

Thanks Spanner,
I am still concerned that I didn't get the light first go-round. Could be intermittent. Right now we have 3 days of rain so I doubt I will be out there working on it, also waiting on new right side points I mangled. But I will check out your recommendations.

Deltarider · « **Reply #7 on:** June 04, 2018, 01:12:57 PM »

Sorry Ugmold, forgot to ask if you have 11-12V when points are opened by hand. If not, follow what Spanners suggested. Do you happen to be located in Canada?

ugmold550 · « **Reply #8 on:** June 04, 2018, 02:33:49 PM »

I am in Massachusetts.

PeWe · « **Reply #9 on:** June 04, 2018, 10:03:47 PM »

Radial play is the reason for adjusting the ignition forever and never get it right. Another must: Dwell meter adjusting the points when idling.
Use a metal hammer and make the point plate fit without radial play.

https://www.motorcycleproject.com/text/sohcign.html

lightly peening the crankcase bosses all around the plate to snug it up (see the illustration at the top of this page). It should be so tight that it will rotate only with a forceful nudge.

Using points is to keep the old heart on these nice bikes. It's a part of the old reliable tech, will not stop on a dark road.

TwoTired · « **Reply #10 on:** June 04, 2018, 11:19:29 PM »

Quote from: ugmold550 on June 03, 2018, 09:28:31 AM

Short story had an issue restarting when warm, thought maybe condenser, overdue for a change anyway.

Bought new points condensers from 4into1. Set the Gap, using test light with switch on could not make the light come on 1-4, but did with 2-3. Checked connections, gap etc...nothing. To make matters worse I bent the 2-3 points with a wrench turning the crank (ordered a new 2-3 point)

Why is 1-4 not lighting?

Thanks.

-ugmold

You are using a light clipped across the points, yes.
It should come on when the points are opened. If not, be sure the terminals are not shorting to ground on the post.

Cheers,

ugmold550 · « **Reply #11 on:** June 07, 2018, 02:04:43 PM »

I got the points today, went over the procedure. 1-4 check out, light on at F. Gap at 14. 2-3 side nudged the 2nd adjustment plate so it lights at F, both dead on.

Definitely getting power (test light points to ground) at the points with paper stuck in the gap.

Lets see how it runs. Battery won't crank it over. It is on the charger now. Battery is 6 years old (dry type) I have always charged it at the beginning of season and end as well as storing it inside for the winter. But, I must say I don't think I have had a battery last this long before.

Now my first scary thought was, I had a 650 Nighthawk 4 cylinder 1986(?) years ago and it sort of had the same problem, battery kept going dead, would run like crap as it was loosing a charge, turned out to be the stator.

I have only run the bike on 3 short trips thus far this season and the battery seemed to be as healthy as usual. So I guess I will see if it will take a charge.

spanners · « **Reply #12 on:** June 07, 2018, 02:46:27 PM »

Maybe your problem is now resolved for whatever reason as the 1-4 light now comes on when it should, previously it did not light checking 1-4 timing at all. Charge it up and wind it over. See what happens. Sounds like you might need a new battery and to get a simple low cost multimeter for this kind of trouble shooting if you don't have one yet. Re stator, you had a definitive problem with the 1-4 test light not being on originally? that would not be stator related. If the turn indicator lights speed up when you rev from idle to higher rpm or the headlight gets brighter the battery is charging, but the battery still might be at the end of its life.

ugmold550 · « **Reply #13 on:** June 07, 2018, 02:53:40 PM »

I just thought of something else. I was at the MC Inspection Shop when this problem happened. The bike has always started right up, got the sticker, go to start as usual and I had to lay on the starter for some time to get it going, so the battery had power to crank the bike over then....but maybe that much work is what killed the battery.

I have a multimeter, If I get it started what kind of voltage should I get at the battery posts at idle...rev'd up a bit.

spanners · « **Reply #14 on:** June 07, 2018, 05:09:57 PM »

Once charged the battery voltage be about 12.6 and should stay above 12.2 volts after 24hours if it drops below 12 it's properly stuffed. Batteries lose their Cold cranking ability with time as they get older. So a battery may not have failed but it does not have the same capacity. Or loses its charge more quickly due to internal discharge between plates.
To quote from Hondamans book, that I just had a quick look at, for the CB750 With the lights off, and the engine around 2,500 rpm the voltage should gradually climb to 13.5 - 14 VDC maybe a bit more at higher RPMs above that. I guess the CB550 is similar.
If you cranked the engine over a very long time to start, it takes a fair ride to put that back in, Output current from the alternator is dependant on the state of the battery charge. The regulator is a bit crude on these old machines. I invested in one of those small intelligent de sulphating type chargers that you can leave on indefinitely without damaging the battery.

ugmold550 · « **Reply #15 on:** June 08, 2018, 03:21:42 PM »

I let the battery charge over night (still am puzzled why it went dead, the ride back from the Inspection Station was 20 miles or so.) The battery read 13.13 and the same 8 hrs later. I started the bike and it roared into action, sounded great. The volt meter rose with the rev's, about 14.5 or so. I haven't had time for a ride and don't want to get stuck when I do. I guess I'll let it sit over night and see what the battery is like in the am.

spanners · « **Reply #16 on:** June 08, 2018, 04:09:15 PM »

No problems with your stator then, if you do lose battery voltage over time when connected to the bike, it is either because the battery is internally discharging or something on the bike is drawing power with the ignition off. If you have a decent DC amp range on your meter you can stick it in series with the main battery negative lead IGN AND ALL LIGHTS OFF and see if there is any drain. If you only have a very low Dc milli amp range on your meter it's a bit risky to try in case there is leakage, and you damage the meter. (dependant on the meter type that is)

Deltarider · « **Reply #17 on:** June 08, 2018, 11:26:45 PM »

Quote from: ugmold550 on June 07, 2018, 02:04:43 PM

I got the points today, went over the procedure. 1-4 check out, light on at F. Gap at 14. 2-3 side nudged the 2nd adjustment plate so it lights at F, both dead on.

Just to be clear: the working order is: 1) set the gap, 2) set the timing. This because changing the gap, will change the timing, whereas changing the timing, will not change the gap. That explains you why afterwards you can get the timing right again by just adjusting the gap, because 99% of off timing is caused by a changed gap due to wear at the breakerpoints.

ugmold550 · « **Reply #18 on:** June 09, 2018, 02:54:58 AM »

Got you DeltaRider, I did points first, then timing, and then checked again to make surety were still correct after timing. Going to check the battery this morning after coffee.
Thanks

ugmold550 · « **Reply #19 on:** June 09, 2018, 12:18:39 PM »

Took it for a ride to grab a bite not far from home, ran great. Started fine after so I took a cruise to the beach 4 miles away. Stop and chatted with some friends that said "that is a beautiful, you ought to clean it up" lol, ya it is over due for a "shiny". Once again it started right up and I rode home w/o incident.

I'm thinking new battery would be a good idea. Appreciate all the input you guys rock.

-ugmold

spanners · « **Reply #20 on:** June 09, 2018, 12:30:58 PM »

Good oh, I reckon you resolved the problem when you put the new points on, maybe 1-4 was shorting to ground at the points terminal connection with a bit of creepage and not enough clearance. I wish I was 4 miles from the (any) Beach lol

The only way to learn is to have a problem, and stick at it.

ugmold550 · « **Reply #21 on:** June 09, 2018, 01:48:42 PM »

Thanks spanners, and now my 03 Tacoma..lol. Today the oil pan developed a crack and the water pump is leaking...another forum. Geez when it rains it pours.

spanners · « **Reply #22 on:** June 09, 2018, 01:54:27 PM »

Quote from: ugmold550 on June 09, 2018, 01:48:42 PM

Thanks spanners, and now my 03 Tacoma..lol. Today the oil pan developed a crack and the water pump is leaking...another forum. Geez when it rains it pours.

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Author Topic: 78 550K new points and condenser problems (Read 1756 times)