Author Topic: CB750K1 resto begins  (Read 5770 times)

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Offline scrambler

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Re: CB750K1 resto begins
« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2019, 08:25:10 pm »
I can see these chains could split occasionally, later Hondas have much stronger primary chains. Is there a stronger replacement available? Not that I want to race mine, just considering a better quality, modern chain that does not stretch. In the TX750 Yamaha bikes stretching balancer chain is a common issue, that I could fix on mine (I hope) by using a timing chain from a modern car.

 
Chains through the case refers to the main drive chain breaking and crashing into the case just in front of the drive socket, my die cast K0 did it to me back in the day. Drive chains were not very good back then and the sprocket size created a lot of acceleration there resulting in broken chains when racing a lot of Sportsters that were sure a little 750cc Japanese bike could never out drag them! It was always fun seeing their reaction when I blew past them.
Sometimes, if lucky, the damage was slight but often it ruined the case which is why some survivor bikes don't have nicely printed engine numbers because the new cases came blank and the dealers had to engrave them. I'm sure Hondaman has done many.
My current K3 will never need to worry about broken chains as I ride it a bit differently than I did when I was in my 20's, hmmm, things change.
Hondaman did the restoration on my head and cylinders, great job, great to work with.

Online PeWe

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Re: CB750K1 resto begins
« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2019, 11:00:07 am »
Classic cycle city on eBay.de sell  a set of stringer primary chains for CB750.
MessnerMoto has a thread about stronger chains using timing chains to cars to press the price. Closest chain has 71 links rhat need to open up, cut and rivet again. Same type of chain that Classic Cycle City sells as direct fit.


My K6 with 1005cc has that set. This engine should deliver +100 whp when properly adjusted and need strong chains. It has much more torque rhan ever before.

When it had 836 and around 80whp, stock chains worked fine.
I measured stretch according to manual, 67.5 mm after around   35.000 km mostly touring in high speed. New chains 65mm, max limit 70mm.
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline scrambler

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Re: CB750K1 resto begins
« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2019, 11:28:26 am »
Classic cycle city on eBay.de sell  a set of stringer primary chains for CB750.
MessnerMoto has a thread about stronger chains using timing chains to cars to press the price. Closest chain has 71 links rhat need to open up, cut and rivet again. Same type of chain that Classic Cycle City sells as direct fit.


My K6 with 1005cc has that set. This engine should deliver +100 whp when properly adjusted and need strong chains. It has much more torque rhan ever before.

When it had 836 and around 80whp, stock chains worked fine.
I measured stretch according to manual, 67.5 mm after around   35.000 km mostly touring in high speed. New chains 65mm, max limit 70mm.

Thanks for the info, probably I`m just gonna go with the stock one then.

Offline Prospect

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Re: CB750K1 resto begins
« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2019, 06:35:36 pm »
I love the K1 and that's why I have two. One from the old factory and one from the new one.  Something about the colour of the fork ears matching the tank and side covers that makes it stand out in appearance.  Good luck on the resto. 
Current Bikes

1969 CB750  Sandcast #256
1971 CB750K1
1972 CB750K1
1975 CB400F
1975 GL1000 Goldwing
1954 Harley Davidson Panhead
1957 Harley Davidson Panhead

Toronto Canada

Offline scrambler

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Re: CB750K1 resto begins
« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2019, 07:45:26 pm »
I love the K1 and that's why I have two. One from the old factory and one from the new one.  Something about the colour of the fork ears matching the tank and side covers that makes it stand out in appearance.  Good luck on the resto.

Yeah, that`s exactly why I picked the K1, too. The other thing that got me is the instrument-integrated indicators. Can you see/feel the differences that Hondaman was talking about between the two bikes?

Offline scrambler

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Re: CB750K1 resto begins
« Reply #30 on: October 22, 2019, 08:26:41 pm »
Here`s a few more pics for today. I had a hard time splitting the head and cylinders apart, it wouldn`t budge no matter how hard I tried to pry or tap them apart. So I got long M6 bolts and drove them into the cylinder block so they were sticking out and I could lay down the whole assembly on the bolt heads. Then I tapped the head down with a piece of wood and a hammer. Finally gravity and tapping broke the gasket loose and they came apart. Apparently the previous owner had fixed it up for eternity.

I`ll do some measurements to find out if I just need new rings and honing, or the cylinders will have to be rebored. If the latter, I wonder if I should just go directly for the 836 kit, as there`s no big difference moneywise, at least for the piston kit. Does that require anything else to be modified? Like rejetting? 

Offline scrambler

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Re: CB750K1 resto begins
« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2019, 08:28:57 pm »
Still fighting with it.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: CB750K1 resto begins
« Reply #32 on: November 09, 2019, 07:24:57 pm »
Hi All,

In the past weeks I went ahead and disassembled the bike almost completely. I wrote a long post about it yesterday with a lot of pictures but when I hit "post" the whole thing just vanished and never reappeared ever since  >:(

Anyways, I`ll give it another shot.
I pulled out the engine, more precisely pulled the frame off of the engine, I stripped down the frame, it`s almost ready for powdercoating. There`s quite a bit of rust here and there, I`ll need a new triple tree bc the stopper is broken and new fork ears and headlight, these are from the later models I think. Here are some pics, let`s see if it works out this time:

That broken fork stopper bung is pretty common on the Old Factory bikes. The Stop got bigger and stronger in the New Factory. It welds back on well!
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline scrambler

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Re: CB750K1 resto begins
« Reply #33 on: November 12, 2019, 09:55:43 pm »
Hi All,

In the past weeks I went ahead and disassembled the bike almost completely. I wrote a long post about it yesterday with a lot of pictures but when I hit "post" the whole thing just vanished and never reappeared ever since  >:(

Anyways, I`ll give it another shot.
I pulled out the engine, more precisely pulled the frame off of the engine, I stripped down the frame, it`s almost ready for powdercoating. There`s quite a bit of rust here and there, I`ll need a new triple tree bc the stopper is broken and new fork ears and headlight, these are from the later models I think. Here are some pics, let`s see if it works out this time:

That broken fork stopper bung is pretty common on the Old Factory bikes. The Stop got bigger and stronger in the New Factory. It welds back on well!

Well, even though it got bigger, it broke off :) I`ll swap it over to a K3 that I have available, they look identical. I need to get the steering lock off somehow first, without a key..

Offline scrambler

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Re: CB750K1 resto begins
« Reply #34 on: December 15, 2019, 09:21:14 pm »
Hey, just a quick update and question on how to proceed. I`m putting together the parts to be powder coated, and wanted to get the top of the rear shocks black coated as well.

Offline scrambler

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Re: CB750K1 resto begins
« Reply #35 on: December 15, 2019, 09:26:23 pm »
The ring compressor I made for my Honda Scrambler project came in useful.

Offline scrambler

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Re: CB750K1 resto begins
« Reply #36 on: December 15, 2019, 09:32:44 pm »
So here`s the thing: the damper on one side seems perfect, but the one on the other side has no resistance at all. Interestingly, on the K1, and I assume on K0, the damper is built in upside down as compared to most of the bikes and CBs after K2. So it`s hard to get these because they are rare. I`m trying to restore this bike back to stock as much as possible. Any experience on how to overhaul these shocks?
« Last Edit: December 15, 2019, 11:55:01 pm by scrambler »

Offline HondaMan

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Re: CB750K1 resto begins
« Reply #37 on: December 16, 2019, 07:26:21 pm »
Those shocks might be tough to rebuild: Honda didn't intend for that. In those days, though, a pair of Showa gas-charged shocks was only $26 out the door(!).

A comment about the boring: please see the section in my book about it. The cylinders WILL need reboring now, if they were still original size. The metals warped around the pistons, making the holes several shapes (except round) and re-ringing the stock pistons usually only provides 8k - 10k miles of reasonable (not increased) performance. A step-bore of even 0.25mm (1st oversize) will bring back all of the original power and some more, and it will stay forever because the bores are cured and the holes will now stay round.
This is true of all of these engines (singles, twins, Fours) or the era, not just Honda's versions. I strongly recommend at least the 0.25mm overbore, but be DEAD SURE the machine shop bores them with the specs shown in the book: piston clearance of 0.0008"-0.0012" is REQUIRED, not optional. I rebuilt my own 750 at 138,000 miles to 0.0006" clearance, and the difference in power and smoothness over the previous rebore (55k miles) at 0.0012" clearance is amazing.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline scrambler

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Re: CB750K1 resto begins
« Reply #38 on: December 16, 2019, 09:17:23 pm »
So the newer versions from K2 are oil-filled? I wonder why they switched to that, cost optimization?

Regarding the boring, believe it or not, I just read the respective section in your book last night :) Yeah, it has to be rebored, I`m convinced. On ebay, the piston set from Japan from `cruizinimage` seems reasonable to invest into, have you worked with those? I think I used their set for my Yamaha twin and so far they are fine. If I go with the big-bore kit, what else has to be changed apart from the kit? Rejetting is also needed I assume? I appreciate your input!


Those shocks might be tough to rebuild: Honda didn't intend for that. In those days, though, a pair of Showa gas-charged shocks was only $26 out the door(!).

A comment about the boring: please see the section in my book about it. The cylinders WILL need reboring now, if they were still original size. The metals warped around the pistons, making the holes several shapes (except round) and re-ringing the stock pistons usually only provides 8k - 10k miles of reasonable (not increased) performance. A step-bore of even 0.25mm (1st oversize) will bring back all of the original power and some more, and it will stay forever because the bores are cured and the holes will now stay round.
This is true of all of these engines (singles, twins, Fours) or the era, not just Honda's versions. I strongly recommend at least the 0.25mm overbore, but be DEAD SURE the machine shop bores them with the specs shown in the book: piston clearance of 0.0008"-0.0012" is REQUIRED, not optional. I rebuilt my own 750 at 138,000 miles to 0.0006" clearance, and the difference in power and smoothness over the previous rebore (55k miles) at 0.0012" clearance is amazing.

Offline scrambler

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Re: CB750K1 resto begins
« Reply #39 on: January 06, 2020, 11:06:38 pm »
Progress report: not much to share, I pretty much finished preparing the parts for powder coating. I drilled off the rivets that held the data plate, it`s glued to the frame as well. Any idea on where to get these rivets from for reassembly?

Offline scrambler

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Re: CB750K1 resto begins
« Reply #40 on: January 06, 2020, 11:16:05 pm »
I also removed everything from the engine cases. Interestingly, when I was driving out the studs some air captured in Japan in `71 was escaping through the threads making a hissing noise :)


Offline scrambler

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Re: CB750K1 resto begins
« Reply #41 on: January 06, 2020, 11:37:50 pm »
I managed to break off a piece fom the bottom half of the case during disassembly. I took it to a welder in San Jose and luckily it turned out prety well.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: CB750K1 resto begins
« Reply #42 on: January 11, 2020, 07:43:08 pm »
So the newer versions from K2 are oil-filled? I wonder why they switched to that, cost optimization?

Regarding the boring, believe it or not, I just read the respective section in your book last night :) Yeah, it has to be rebored, I`m convinced. On ebay, the piston set from Japan from `cruizinimage` seems reasonable to invest into, have you worked with those? I think I used their set for my Yamaha twin and so far they are fine. If I go with the big-bore kit, what else has to be changed apart from the kit? Rejetting is also needed I assume? I appreciate your input!


Those shocks might be tough to rebuild: Honda didn't intend for that. In those days, though, a pair of Showa gas-charged shocks was only $26 out the door(!).

A comment about the boring: please see the section in my book about it. The cylinders WILL need reboring now, if they were still original size. The metals warped around the pistons, making the holes several shapes (except round) and re-ringing the stock pistons usually only provides 8k - 10k miles of reasonable (not increased) performance. A step-bore of even 0.25mm (1st oversize) will bring back all of the original power and some more, and it will stay forever because the bores are cured and the holes will now stay round.
This is true of all of these engines (singles, twins, Fours) or the era, not just Honda's versions. I strongly recommend at least the 0.25mm overbore, but be DEAD SURE the machine shop bores them with the specs shown in the book: piston clearance of 0.0008"-0.0012" is REQUIRED, not optional. I rebuilt my own 750 at 138,000 miles to 0.0006" clearance, and the difference in power and smoothness over the previous rebore (55k miles) at 0.0012" clearance is amazing.

I often use the CruzinImage pistons in their 0.25, 0.5, and 1.00mm overbore sizes. Once in all of them (well over 100 pistons by now) I got one that was a little malformed near the piston-pin boss, and I wrote to him about it: a week alter I got 2 new pistons, no charge(!). One was standard size and the other was 0.25mm oversize, he just 'wanted to be sure I have the right one'. I still have the odd one around here somewhere.

I don't have supporting evidence about the change from nitrogen-filled to the simpler oil-filled shocks, but I know that all of the early ones lost their nitrogen in less than 1 year. I suspect Honda didn't like that vendor after that, and changed parts. That was also when the shocks changed from 12.9" long to 13.1" long. The same springs seemed to be used, which gave the K1 New Factory bike a slightly softer ride than the K0.

The chain story is even more fascinating: by 1970 Honda knew they had a big problem with the chain, and RK Japan (the supplier) had no ideas. At the same time as the 750, Harley was prototyping their 1000cc Sportster in their older 883cc Sportser frame, and this new V-twin was eating the chain alive, too. Diamond made the H-D chains, and they came up with the XD chain for the bike, which had extra clearance in the now-hardened rollers and quad staking on the link pins, with shot-peened side plates. The Harley frame tended to fold up sideways under heavy throttle grabs (and sprang back like a spring during shifts), so their new arrangement let the power be transferred thru the chain without grief. Honda got REAL interested, but Diamond would not talk with them about a competitor's bike. About that time, H-D went bankrupt, too, and AMF bought them: Honda then quietly bought 51% of AMF stocks in early 1970. By March the Japanese bosses had nabbed the Diamond design from the Harley engineering group and took it to RK, who made their version of it (except they could not replicate the Diamond master link, so the new chains became endless type instead) while Honda's engineers also made the sprockets sport a larger (by 0.5mm) base circle, later 1mm more, to reduce the chain's crash into the sprockets upon entry. This also caused the rollers to pump the oil on the sideplates into the rollers at each exit from a sprocket tooth, and the RK chains could later over a year.

Meanwhile, we 750 owners found the XD chains (at racetracks, mostly) and put them to work: they outlasted the RK chains almost 10-fold in practice because of superior American metallurgy (in the 1970s), and I experienced many, many of these chains passing 40k miles on the original sprockets on bikes I serviced then. I still have my first XD chain, as it was stretched just 1% (one link length) at 40k miles when I changed off my first pair of sprockets of my K2.

On the dynos, the XD chains showed a clear superiority, too, so they soon became the dragracer's choice. My shop sold a LOT of XD chains. In about 1990 Diamond changed the name to XDL chain and made the XDL Powersport version as well, which is made for more cold-weather work (snowmobiles, etc.), but it works almost as well. I won't run any other chain, myself!
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline scrambler

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Re: CB750K1 resto begins
« Reply #43 on: January 13, 2020, 11:14:43 am »
Thanks Hondaman for the very interesting input. I`ll go with the cruizinimage piston set then, I`ve used them for a Yamaha twin recently and they are indeed good quality. I`ll check how long my shocks are. One of them still has the nitrogen load, seems working fine. There`s a few nitrogen filled shock internals on ebay, brand new, little pricey though. I`ll wait a little longer, perhaps a cheaper one shows up so I can rebuild the original set. If not, I`ll just go with the oil-filled version. 

Offline scrambler

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Re: CB750K1 resto begins
« Reply #44 on: February 16, 2020, 12:33:19 am »
Today I had a great opportunity to look into the engine`s oil circulating system to the finest detail. Not that I really wanted to, but I didn`t have a choice I guess. It`s my fault, I should`ve prepared the engine cases before I dropped them off at the powder coater. They said they will cover everything on the engine, they have done such jobs before, so I thought these guys know what they are doing. Well, not exactly, see my other post about the outgassing/bubbling issues. Long story short, all the oil channels and galleries were filled with sand.

Few pics of the cases, they turned out good:

Offline scrambler

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Re: CB750K1 resto begins
« Reply #45 on: February 16, 2020, 12:37:14 am »
This is how it looked after removing the plug on the front oil gallery:

Offline scrambler

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Re: CB750K1 resto begins
« Reply #46 on: February 16, 2020, 12:40:02 am »
I used the brake rod to push out the plug at the left end of the main oil gallery:

Offline scrambler

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Re: CB750K1 resto begins
« Reply #47 on: February 16, 2020, 12:44:20 am »
After removing all the plugs, I washed out every single one of the oil lines (there are quite a few) with about a gallon of gas using a large syringe. 

Offline scrambler

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Re: CB750K1 resto begins
« Reply #48 on: February 16, 2020, 12:48:52 am »
Then I rinsed everything with hot water and soap. Luckily, my wife still tolerates when I make such a mess in the kitchen  :)


Offline scrambler

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Re: CB750K1 resto begins
« Reply #49 on: February 16, 2020, 12:51:12 am »
Engine cases are now assembled with the crankshaft and ready to ship to cycle-x for bearing alignment.