Author Topic: CB750 AHRMA Superbike Heavyweight Racer  (Read 31191 times)

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Offline gschuld

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Re: CB750 AHRMA Superbike Heavyweight Racer
« Reply #150 on: June 16, 2021, 03:14:09 PM »
Oh we are a Caviar and Champaign group for sure😁😁😁

The eddy current Dynos are quite different from the inertia dynos like the Dynojet models.

They state outright that these dynos typically report noticeably lower power numbers compared to inertia dynos. It’s another reason I’m not overly interested in the power numbers, but more in getting the air/fuel and timing dialed in.

George

Offline bear

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Re: CB750 AHRMA Superbike Heavyweight Racer
« Reply #151 on: June 16, 2021, 05:14:54 PM »
They state outright that these dynos typically report noticeably lower power numbers compared to inertia dynos. It’s another reason I’m not overly interested in the power numbers, but more in getting the air/fuel and timing dialed in.

George


In my opinion that's definitely the right way to approach it George. Set-up and balance are far more important than outright HP. It's very easy to over power a racetrack on a bike based on fifty year old technology. Balance is the key.
None of us are a Mick Doohan or Kenny Roberts.



« Last Edit: June 16, 2021, 05:20:05 PM by bear »
The older I get the faster I was.

Offline gschuld

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Re: CB750 AHRMA Superbike Heavyweight Racer
« Reply #152 on: June 16, 2021, 06:53:02 PM »
Hey Brian.  I’m really hopeful this will be a fun racing season for both bikes.  Matt worked his tail off to get this bike ready.  There is a lot to be said for youthful energy, talent, a super understanding and supportive wife, and really impressive time management skills.

Fingers crossed both bikes will be relatively trouble free and offer Matt and Ashley some much deserved downtime between race weekends.




Offline scottly

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Re: CB750 AHRMA Superbike Heavyweight Racer
« Reply #153 on: June 16, 2021, 07:12:48 PM »
George, to best use your dyno time, start with the main jet. Check the AFR between 7000-9000 RPM with the throttle WFO; don't worry about the AFR at lower RPMs. Do a quick pull, and if the AFR is way off in either direction by 8000 or so, abort the run and adjust the jetting. Once you are happy with the WFO readings (AFR 12.8-13.2), you can move on to the needle, part throttle settings if you have the time. Just my 2 cents... ;)
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
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Offline gschuld

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Re: CB750 AHRMA Superbike Heavyweight Racer
« Reply #154 on: June 17, 2021, 03:00:39 AM »
Scottly,

Thanks for the tips.  I’m definitely welcoming any insights into dyno tuning.

George

Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: CB750 AHRMA Superbike Heavyweight Racer
« Reply #155 on: June 17, 2021, 10:31:59 AM »
+1 on Scottly

My WFO is spot on per the dyno. The mid range WAS 10:1. So now I'm using my butt dyno on the needles. Just dropped them one notch. Going for a butt dyno test next day or so. Maybe then another notch for comparison. If these were stock carbs I'd use the dyno to tune the needles. The CR31's and the RS34's are SOOOO easy to tune needles.
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline simon#42

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Re: CB750 AHRMA Superbike Heavyweight Racer
« Reply #156 on: June 17, 2021, 11:31:21 AM »
the other reason i hate inertia dynos  is that you have a ton weight spinning round and if you have a problem with the engine you have to be quick with the clutch , if you have a problem with the gearbox you have to be quick to duck ! 

Online PeWe

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Re: CB750 AHRMA Superbike Heavyweight Racer
« Reply #157 on: June 17, 2021, 11:58:23 AM »
Needles easy to adjust on Mikuni TMR too. It will not affect synch.
Pilot jet another thing. I tested all in steps of 2.5 from 17.5 to 37.5 since last summer. My 2nd run like that and back down again but with different combinations.

One extra set of 4 float bowl gaskets is a must. 6 extra is good too since it is too easy to pinch them.  I have learnt how it should feel when assemble the bowls, all 4 hanging together with the acc pump hoses.

Red o-ring like material that expands by fuel. Another dry set is needed.  Old ones can be used a few days later if dried. I have heard that it is possible to cool the old fueled ones with ice to get them smaller again quicker.

All float bowls to be removed and assembled at the same time.
I have got the feeling for it after +20 times when carbs sits mounted.

Needle jet a small tube sitting on top of the main jet holder. Other carbs, everything as one  emulsifier tube. I guess RS 34 has same design as TMR.
CR31???
« Last Edit: June 17, 2021, 12:16:52 PM by PeWe »
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline bear

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Re: CB750 AHRMA Superbike Heavyweight Racer
« Reply #158 on: June 17, 2021, 05:50:32 PM »
the other reason i hate inertia dynos  is that you have a ton weight spinning round and if you have a problem with the engine you have to be quick with the clutch , if you have a problem with the gearbox you have to be quick to duck ! 

Dyno's aside. I would have thought a quick clutch hand would be a prerequisite for all you TZ pilots Simon.  ;)
The older I get the faster I was.

Offline scottly

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Re: CB750 AHRMA Superbike Heavyweight Racer
« Reply #159 on: June 17, 2021, 08:21:53 PM »
Any updates on today's dyno testing????
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
Helmets save brains. Always wear one and ride like everyone is trying to kill you....

Offline gschuld

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Re: CB750 AHRMA Superbike Heavyweight Racer
« Reply #160 on: June 18, 2021, 02:53:42 AM »
Sorry guys.

It was a disappointment on our end, but an unforeseen issue prevented us from testing the bike on the dyno last night😕.  The bike is fine, and we are moving fwd.

Track testing/practice today, starting with the Sportsman bike.  We will have to do the best we can to dial it in on the track.  Any clear signs of trouble that can’t be dealt with trackside and the Superbike sits rather than risking the bike or rider.





« Last Edit: June 18, 2021, 05:28:19 AM by gschuld »

Offline Old Scrambler

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Re: CB750 AHRMA Superbike Heavyweight Racer
« Reply #161 on: June 18, 2021, 06:52:43 AM »
Ahhhhh...........the best laid plans of mice and men..............So back to plan A..........Plug chops are likely to be fruitless because the race-gas/fuel will not leave deposits to read........Matt should know that if he has never heard detonation from a CB750, it sounds something like a dry roller chain spinning against the head and usually begins under acceleration at 4000+ rpms.........You will be able to read the exhaust in hopefully a nice mild gray.......If too rich, the motor will stumble and struggle under acceleration somewhere north of 7,000 rpms.

Of course you both know all of the above........it just may help to check all of the boxes ;)
Dennis in Wisconsin
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CB750 Classic Bonneville Racer thread - http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,135473.0.html
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Offline simon#42

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Re: CB750 AHRMA Superbike Heavyweight Racer
« Reply #162 on: June 18, 2021, 11:01:55 AM »
well they look like winners standing still , well done for turning out two bikes of this standard -

yes bear i still ride with two fingers on the clutch leaver at all times . logic tells me that modern road bikes dont seize up but my fingers dont believe me .

Offline hondaron

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Re: CB750 AHRMA Superbike Heavyweight Racer
« Reply #163 on: June 18, 2021, 09:26:48 PM »
Both bikes look great

Good luck this weekend enjoy 😀

Offline gschuld

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Re: CB750 AHRMA Superbike Heavyweight Racer
« Reply #164 on: June 19, 2021, 09:14:31 AM »
Not much of an update.  But as anyone could have anticipated, we were not able to beat the odds and have a trouble free first race weekend with an untested all new race bike.  Engine ran great FWIW.

I’ll let Matt explain later, but in short, nothing is hurt.  Minor issues to deal with over the next 4 weeks.  It’s no real disappointment as we expected issues would surface. 

On a positive note, the Sportsman bike is running 100% trouble free. 

FWIW, we want to thank those that have helped Matt with his racing.

Kenny and Mike especially.  Thanks guys…😂

George

Offline MRieck

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Re: CB750 AHRMA Superbike Heavyweight Racer
« Reply #165 on: June 19, 2021, 03:19:51 PM »
Always a learning curve with any "new" bike fellas. The banner looks great!
Owner of the "Million Dollar CB"

Offline bwaller

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Re: CB750 AHRMA Superbike Heavyweight Racer
« Reply #166 on: June 22, 2021, 03:31:33 PM »
I caught up with George Sunday evening, good work men. There will always be little issues with a new bike. Next time!

Offline RAFster122s

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Re: CB750 AHRMA Superbike Heavyweight Racer
« Reply #167 on: June 22, 2021, 05:23:57 PM »
Glad you made it out and got it started down the road of sorting and tuning...
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline MRieck

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Re: CB750 AHRMA Superbike Heavyweight Racer
« Reply #168 on: June 26, 2021, 04:41:45 PM »
I'm waiting fellas.
Owner of the "Million Dollar CB"

Offline slikwilli420

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Re: CB750 AHRMA Superbike Heavyweight Racer
« Reply #169 on: June 26, 2021, 06:58:53 PM »
The tale of two bikes. One, fettled and tuned for the last few seasons, fits like a great pair of gloves, gives (nearly) flawless performance, and is predictable. I know every piece and part of both bikes. The second, however, is new to me and the world, and while it shares so many things with my S750 bike, is its own unique creature in so many ways.

The fine tuning is yet to come but things have already come so far so quickly, and I couldn’t be more proud, despite the result. I left for Topeka over Memorial Day weekend, and the frame had just been painted, parts scattered around the shop and basement, a bike waiting to be born. I returned home from Topeka with issues to sort on the old warhorse, while also pushing to finish the new Superbike Heavyweight to debut at the Jersey round only a month later. And so it began, engine building, chassis assembly, the last little 5-minute bracket that takes half a day to get right, the whole deal. Many 16-18 hour days from early morning until well past 1am came to pass, every day inching closer to a very special machine, capable of competing with the best the air-cooled 4-cylinder era had to offer. It certainly took a toll on me and my family, but has proven to be a great adventure. Without a doubt it could not have been achieved without the support of my best friend, crew chief, and biggest fan, my wife Ashley.

The plan was to get it started and rings seated and head for a dyno session in northern New Jersey the Thursday of race weekend. Im thrilled to say that after some delay, the bike started and ran very nicely. I was able to make a few laps around the neighborhood at varying RPM to seat the rings and get a but a small feel for the bike. The upright riding position is something I am no longer used to, having only ridden my S750 bike over the last few years, with its low clip-ons and lay over the tank rider position, a mirror opposite of my new sit-up-and-beg superbike, with wide upright bars and cut down stock seat. Many nuances to adapt to are in my very near future. An extra 20+hp on tap, and only about 30lbs heavier, coupled with substantially better brakes (a single 12in rotor vs 2x 13in units), all in an effort to be competitive in a class of air-cooled monsters. Given all that, off to Jersey we went, old faithful and the new kid on the block.

The dyno session, as George mentioned, was quite the ordeal. This dyno had never taken advantage of its ability to start a bike, as it was nearly exclusively used for street bikes equipped with starters. After using my roller battery to hook up the never-been-used starting mechanism for the dyno, I thought we were in good shape. After some work the bike finally started and settled to a sweet idle. I get off the bike to look it over and see if there are any issues only to find fuel POURING out of the #2 carb overflow. The trusty wrap of a tool on the bowl as the bike is idling was not enough to right the issue with the float valve. At that point, it was quite a job to pull the carbs and assess the situation, with our dyno time already running out. The decision was made to try again at the track, and gently ease into running it, reading plugs as best we could and go from there.
We decided to start the bike again at the track without pulling the carbs on the off chance the valve had fixed itself on the last leg of the drive, and it had. A terrifying issue to be sure. Funny how things work, you load them up, then calamity ensues only to reverse itself again later. Old bikes man, that’s the game. Either way, it was time to get this thing out and finally get some actual track time. After a thorough warm up in the pits, its accelerated, turned and stopped as expected and it was my turn to practice. I head out on track, carefully easing into the feel of the bike, a bike I had never ridden in anger, on race tires I had never tried, on a track I had one session on so far, and a bike that had equal parts blood, sweat, and money poured into over the last year or so. As I gather enough speed after a few slow corners I gently throw it into the turn, and I feel it. The rear end starts wallowing, as if quickly finding and losing grip as I round the corner. Next corner, same result, and so on. I make it just under 2 laps and pull in to assess the issue. George notices as he stares at the rear ends of both bikes that the S750 wheel spins absolutely true rotation after rotation, nary a wobble to be detected. On the other hand, the Superbike wheel wobbles noticeably left and right and slightly up and down as well. While we likely had the wherewithal to swap the S750 wheel to the Superbike just to make sure that was the issue, we decided that it was time to throw in the towel and focus on what we could control, the S750 bike, which ran like a top all weekend. We also discovered the tiny oil leak from the copper base gasket had grown worse with my time on the track and more heat in the engine. It seems that its still trying to find its final home between case and cylinder and needs another round of torqueing to find that final home.

Back home after a successful weekend on the S750 bike (read about that in my other thread) I started to assess the rear wheel issue. I had just picked up another Astralite wheel complete with bearing hubs only a few weeks before, so I started mixing and matching hubs to wheels. The new wheel and its hubs spun true left/right and up/down as well as a true wire wheel so I had a baseline. I bolted my current hubs to the new wheel as they were already set up for the disc and sprocket, making the wheel swap a breeze, or so I thought. Just minutes before when the new wheel spun true on its hubs, it now spins like a drunken sailor on the hubs that came off the bike. Curious to say the least. I put the new hubs on my current wheel, and of course, the wobble all but disappears. It seems that I don’t have a wheel issue, I have a hub issue. I swap hubs and wheels back and forth and measure runout to see if it really is the hubs. The new hubs spun on both wheels substantially better then the old hubs did on either. Fortunately, despite being a quite different design, the spacing from hub face to sprocket mount was the same, and the disc carrier just so happened to be a perfect fit for the bolt pattern on my Ducati Monster rotor, what luck! With that, I have decided to use the new hubs (duh!) on the current 3.5” wheel, as the new 4.5” wheel would require a new tire, and I had just bought fresh race rubber for the 3.5. They both spun equally true, so that was a non-factor. I set about ordering fresh bearings and some of the long bolts required to bolt the hubs through the wheel, as well as a new custom sprocket, as the carriers are totally different in bolt circle and center hole diameter.

As for the leaky base gasket, the frame kit will allow me to pull the valve cover and with the help of the crow foot wrench I will be able to torque everything again, hopefully for the last time. There are a number of small things yet to finish on the bike, but without the crunch of getting ready for Jersey, I will have plenty of time to get things sorted. Remember, this year is for tuning and refining, and next year is for competing for points. Track time is a must this year so I can acquaint myself to my new machine and do as much tuning and fettling as possible before next season starts.

Gingerman is coming up at the end of July with a race the very next weekend at Blackhawk Farms so it should be a very eventful time of the season, hopefully with lots of good things to report about both bikes!

The glamour shots after final fitting of everything:















« Last Edit: June 26, 2021, 07:20:13 PM by slikwilli420 »
All you gotta do is do what you gotta do.

Vintage Speed Parts Mashup: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=133638.0
Rickman CR Parts Kit Refresh: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,154837.0.html
AHRMA CB750 Racer: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,158461.0.html
AHRMA Superbike Heavyweight Racer: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,173120.0.html
'76F CB750 Patina Redemption: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,174871.0.html

Offline hondaron

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Re: CB750 AHRMA Superbike Heavyweight Racer
« Reply #170 on: June 26, 2021, 10:53:38 PM »
Thanks for the pics and updates 😀

Will see you at Barber for sure

Enjoy 😊

Offline bwaller

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Re: CB750 AHRMA Superbike Heavyweight Racer
« Reply #171 on: June 27, 2021, 11:00:59 AM »
Just wonder why a copper base instead of mls? Did you need a special thickness the mls didn't come in?

Offline gschuld

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Re: CB750 AHRMA Superbike Heavyweight Racer
« Reply #172 on: June 27, 2021, 01:00:32 PM »
Brent,

It was a race against the clock.  I had a number of new copper base gaskets of various the thicknesses. Matt ended up needing the .040” one.  Didn’t have the time to source an MLS BIG BORE gasket in .040”, assuming it was available.

An MLS gasket would have been preferred though.

George

Online PeWe

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Re: CB750 AHRMA Superbike Heavyweight Racer
« Reply #173 on: June 27, 2021, 01:40:36 PM »
Base gasket? Really 0.040?
Dynoman has RCS in thickness 0.010" and 0.020".

They have for various sleeves. Mikes billet block need 78 mm. I've used 78.11mm
http://dynoman.net/bikepages/sohc/gaskets-base.html

They have MLS headgasket for 72mm bore
0.03" and 0.04"
http://dynoman.net/bikepages/sohc/gaskets-head.html

I had to order some extra last winter.
Not available around here.
I guess CycleX has those sizes too.

I heard that base gasket can be reused with a very thin layer of "Wurth Super RTV Plus" and similar.

I tried to reuse 0.030"  MLS (72mm) head gasket, it had only around 500km and 2 dyno runs.
I did not get good compression test numbers direct after cam install + valve cover before carbs back on.
Had to order a new MLS head gasket plus some extra while order.
The protuded area around bores were flattened.
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline bwaller

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Re: CB750 AHRMA Superbike Heavyweight Racer
« Reply #174 on: June 27, 2021, 02:23:26 PM »
Brent,

It was a race against the clock.  I had a number of new copper base gaskets of various the thicknesses. Matt ended up needing the .040” one.  Didn’t have the time to source an MLS BIG BORE gasket in .040”, assuming it was available.

An MLS gasket would have been preferred though.

George

Copy that.