Topic: Electrical problem, white mans magic? Hep me, hep me!

[Terry in Australia]

Ok, so the K1 "Power-Kruiser" is a reality, the racer engine is in, Mike Rieck sent me some new carb rubbers, but I don't have any pods to fit to the Keihin CR's yet, so they're still in the box, and I just cleaned the stockers and fitted them, and I also fitted the Dyna S and 3 Ohm Dyna green coils and Peter Allen race pipe. (still too loud for the street, but I'll fix that)

Surprisingly for me, it fired right up and sounds awesome, and seems to rev freely in the driveway, but I was surprised that when I put a volt meter across the battery terminals with the engine running, it was down to 8 volts! Oooh.......

It appears that the alternator aint alternating, but I changed the regulator first (easier) anyway, there was no change, so I'm guessing the stator is knackered. No biggie there as I've got several in boxes, just a pain in the butt.

What I find somewhat disturbing though, is that with the engine off and the ignition off, the voltmeter is reading 12 volts at the battery terminals, but as soon as I turn the ignition on, the voltmeter drops to 10 volts, is this normal? Could it be as a result of fitting the Dyna 3 Ohm coils? 

Anyway, I'm off to change out the stator, but if however, my diagnosis is incorrect, what else should I be looking at? Engine and other mechanical problems are easy for me, but electrical stuff is definately "White Mans Magic" to my poor old undersized brain, ha ha! Cheers, Terry.   

[scondon]

Man, I sure do like that Disco paint job

   Those 3.0 coils do draw a lot, Terry. I read 12.7 at the battery at 5000rpm which is enough to keep the battery happy but I don't think I'll ever see 14.0-14.5.  Have you checked the wiring coming from the alternator?  All those yellow wires come into a clip where they often "burn" together which can cause some pretty low charge to the battery. I'll be soldering the wires straight to the rectifier on the new bike and ditch the clip connector.

[Terry in Australia]

Man, I sure do like that Disco paint job

   Those 3.0 coils do draw a lot, Terry. I read 12.7 at the battery at 5000rpm which is enough to keep the battery happy but I don't think I'll ever see 14.0-14.5.  Have you checked the wiring coming from the alternator?  All those yellow wires come into a clip where they often "burn" together which can cause some pretty low charge to the battery. I'll be soldering the wires straight to the rectifier on the new bike and ditch the clip connector.

G'Day Sean, thanks for that mate, the tank came from another SOHC4 member (Chris Liston, I think) it was painted (and signed by the artist) in 1974 and really is a work of art, although it predates "Disco" by a couple of years and is probably more "psychadelic", ha ha! I didn't have the heart to paint over it, so I just clearcoated it with 2K clearcoat, and it's really nice asnd shiny mate, for sure!

I cleaned the connectors on the yellow wires when I re-installed the alternator on Thursday, and they looked pretty good, I might swap the rectifier before I pull the alternator, as I don't want to disturb it, if I don't have to, but if that doesn't make any difference, then sadly, it's "alternator off" time! Cheers, Terry.

[scondon]

  Those yellow wires can fuse together in the back of the clip. Theres just a thin wall of plastic seperating them so age and many heat cycles can deteriate the plastic to the point where the wires are touching each other. I know ya said you cleaned the connectors, just wanted to make sure you inspected the wires while you were at it. I'd hate for ya to have to pull the alternator too Especially with such good riding weather

[750goes]

Terry,

You got your voltage regulator hooked up as well ?? swap that out with a spare if need be - check for a good main earth from the battery..
Do you have a multimeter you can use?? - there are plenty of tests you can perform to check where your voltage is leaking etc..

I posted up a simple teszt the other day for the electrics - I'll find it and post it here..

[750goes]

here it is

http://www.sohc4.us/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=17063.0;id=17202

[750goes]

don't know whether that worked so here it is - hopefully not twice

Three phase charging system inspection and maintenance for all pre 79 SHOC4 motorcycles. 


I.   Initial inspection.
A.   Charging system fuse check
1.   If open replace.
2.   If shorts again search for short circuit.
 
II.   Full load test.  (Determines battery condition).
A.   Turn ignition and high beam on while bike is not running. 
B.   Test battery voltage. 
C.   Voltage bellow 10.5V means battery needs service. 

III.   Charging the battery. 
A.   If specific gravity of any cell is less than 1.230 battery has low charge.
B.   If sediments in battery are touching bottom of any plates replace the battery. 
C.   If specific gravity varies more than .050 then replace battery. 
D.   If fluid level is low add distilled water only.  Don’t add too much as level may rise even more while charging. 
E.   Charge the batter at no more than 10 percent of its amp hour rating. 
F.   If battery temp. is more than 113 degrees F allow it to cool then resume charging. 
G.   If specific gravity of any cell will not charge above 1.230 then replace the battery. 
H.   Put the fully charge battery back in the bike and do the full load test again.  A running RPM test cannot be done unless you have a fully charged battery.  If the voltage is above 12V then you can do the RPM test.
I.   Start the engine and lock the throttle when the RPM is above 4000.  If the voltage is between 14V and 15V the system is fine and the battery was to blame.  If not you have more work to do. 

IV.   If @ 4000 RPM the voltage was bellow 14V…
A.   Check for problems. 
1.   Corroded, loose, or mismatched wires.  I.e. orange and green wire plugged in to each other. 
2.   Modified or non-stock systems.
3.   Visibly damaged wire insulation.
B.   Do a system analysis resistance test. 
*.  NOTE 0 resistance = good wire. 
*.  NOTE infinite resistance while grounded to frame = good insulation.  Coils will automatically have resistance.



C.   Resistance testing of regulator wires. 
1.   While the bike is not running disconnect (-) battery lead and Black regulator wire.  Check for 0 resistance between (-) battery wire and Black regulator wire.
2.   Disconnect all regulator leads. 
a.   Test for resistance between I and F poles.  0 resistance is good.  If greater than 0 clean the regulator points. 
b.   Test for resistance between the white wire and ground.  Resistance between 4 and 8 ohms means the field coil is good.
   
V.   Testing the stator yellow leads. 
A.   Test wires 1 and 2, 1 and 3, 3 and 2 for ohm readings.  Less than 1 ohm means the circuit is good.  Greater than 1 ohm means poor connection.  Infinite resistance means that the coil has an open circuit or possibly a bad lead. 
B.   NOTE.  For GL1000 you need to disconnect/remove the permanent magnet rotor before continuing.  Set tester to insulation resistance and calibrate it to 0 to perform a wire insulation test on the stator.  Ground the negative test lead and touch the other lead to each of the three stator wires.  If the resistance is infinite then the coil is ok.  If not then the coil is shorted to ground. 
C.   Test the three stator wires in the harness of the motorcycle.  First disconnect the rectifier.  Set the tester to resistance.  0 resistance means all three wires are fine.  Greater than 0 means the wire is bad. 
D.   Check the wires for bad insulation.  Connect the black tester lead to ground.  Each wire should have infinite resistance.  Greater than infinite resistance means the wire has bad insulation. 

VI.   Check the five leads on the rectifier. 
A.   To perform a forward bias test first connect the red tester lead to the green ground lead. 
B.   With the black tester lead test all three yellow wires. 
C.   Resistance must fall between 5 and 40 ohms. 
D.   To perform a reverse bias test connect the black tester lead to the green ground lead. 
E.   With the red tester lead test all three yellow wire. 
F.   Resistance must be greater than 2000 ohms. 
G.   Connect the black tester wire to the red and white rectifier lead. 
H.   With the red test lead test all three yellow wires. 
I.   All three must have between 5 and 40 ohms. 
J.   Connect the red test wire to the red and white rectifier lead. 
K.   Test all three yellow wires with the black tester lead. 
L.   Resistance must be greater than 2000 ohms. 

VII.   Testing the harness plugs and leads. 
A.   Test each of the plug wires in the circuit for o resistance. 
B.   While the battery and rectifier are disconnected test the red and white harness rectifier wire to the (+) battery lead for 0 resistance. 

VIII.   Regulator bench test. 
A.   Remove regulator cover. 
B.   First check the core gap to be sure it is between .6 and 1mm. 
C.   Next check the points gap to be sure it is between .3 and .6mm.
D.   Clean the points with contact cleaner. 
E.   Note the 350F points gap is not adjustable. 
F.   Test the regulator leads by first placing paper on both sides of the points contacts. 
G.   Test resistance between I and F, then I and E terminals.  Check you manual for model specific resistance readings. 
H.   Test for 0 resistance at regulator points connections.
I.    While the points contact is in the upper position test between I and F. 
J.   While in the lower position test between F and E. 
K.   Note.  Do not file the points or they will quickly pit when used again.
 
IX.   Perform RPM test again.  Be sure all components meet specks before going forward from here. 
A.   Reconnect all components but leave the regulator cover off. 
B.   Start the bike and lock the throttle at 4000 RPM. 
C.   The voltage should read between 14V and 15V. 
D.   If voltage is low unlock the adjuster screw nut and turn the IN. NOTE do not run the screw into the coil winding or short the screw to something else with the screwdriver.   
E.   If voltage is high adjust the screw OUT. 
F.   For the 350F bend the arm up for and increase in voltage or down to decrease. 
G.   Replace the cover and test the voltage again as the cover can have an affect on the field of the coil. 
H.   GO FOR A RIDE!

[TwoTired]

Do you work and play well with multimeters?

I wouldn't swap out the stator until I measured it's resistance with an ohm meter.  I'd also check the field coil, too, which is a bit easier.  The feild coil should measure about 7.2 ohms at the disconnected regulator terminals (green and white), and infinite between the white wire and the engine case.

The stator terminals are harder to measure, as the ressitance is very low and close the the minimum capabilities of the most common meters.
Between, any two yellow wires there should be 0.2 ohms, and infinite between those wires and the engine case.

With whatever meter you have on the lowest resistance scale, place the probe tips together and note the reading.  With old, oxidized probes you may notice a different reading each time.  Polish the probe tips for a consistent reading every time and note the value.  This is your measurement error (contact and test lead resistance) and it will be subtracted from any reading taken on test subjects.

Swap stator and field coil only if these tests indicate abnormal readings.   If they measure good.  Then we'll examine possible rectifier, regulator, and wiring issues.

Oh, and charge your battery before testing the charging stuff.  Voltage readings will certainly be abnormal, and possibly confusing, until the battery is charged.

Cheers,

[Pinhead]

To test if your alternator is working but your regulator/rectifier is bad, disconnect your R/R and hook your battery voltage straight to the field coil wires (green and white). With the engine running above 1500rpm you should be able to measure a pretty high AC voltage (around 50 VAC) across any two of the three yellow wires (the physical output of your three-phase stator).

If your alternator checks out, you may want to use an electronic regulator such as the one in my sig. It starts charging earlier in the RPM range and the voltage is much steadier than the old mechanical regulators.

If you do get the AC voltage out of your stator, you can optionally take one more step to see if it's your regulator or rectifier that is bad...

Leave the R/R connected, but pull the two (green/white) wires out of the connector. This will allow you to hook battery voltage straight to your field coil while leaving the output of your alternator tied to your rectifier (have the engine running when you hook the wires up). Rev the engine to ~2k rpm. If your battery voltage goes up, that means your rectifier is good but your regulator is bad. If so, you can easily install the solid state regulator in my sig.

Edit: OOPS! You've got an old(er) bike with a separate regulator and rectifier. The above tests will still work, realizing that the regulator and rectifier connectors are separate.

[750goes]

Terry, you still in bed its Sunday morning man 8:00am time to go to church?? or are you still in an electrical haze??

[Terry in Australia]

G'Day Charlie, no mate, I got up at 7 am and went for my daily 3 mile walk, now I'm sitting back with a cup of java, trying to take all this in. Thanks guys, I think I'll take a shower, and stroll out to the garage to try some of this electrical wizadry!

Lucky you techo guys weren't born a couple of hundred years ago, big dumb guys like me would be burning you at the stake, ha ha Cheers, Terry.

[Terry in Australia]

Well, after all that good advice I just went outside and swapped the alternator stators over, and viola! (a string instrument)

It's all good! I also bought a new battery cos my old one is prolly shagged, and it's starting and running really well, and at 4K Rpm, it's kicking out a bit over 13 volts, maybe 13.5? Thanks again guys, Cheers, Terry.

[mrbreeze]

Way to go Terry!!! Now what part was bad out of the old? Why did it go go bad? What will keep the new (old) one from going bad??? These are the questions I want to answer!!!

[Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er]

G'Day Charlie, no mate, I got up at 7 am and went for my daily 3 mile walk, now I'm sitting back with a cup of java, trying to take all this in. Thanks guys, I think I'll take a shower, and stroll out to the garage to try some of this electrical wizadry!

Lucky you techo guys weren't born a couple of hundred years ago, big dumb guys like me would be burning you at the stake, ha ha Cheers, Terry.

Are you one of those old geezers that puts on bermuda shorts hiked up to your chest and tennis shoes with white socks and goes to the mall for your morning stroll swinging your arms like you are actually doing something? 

[Pinhead]

You may want to install an electronic regulator, regardless. It will make your alternator and battery last longer because your voltage will be much steadier. It's a really simple install.

[Terry in Australia]

You may want to install an electronic regulator, regardless. It will make your alternator and battery last longer because your voltage will be much steadier. It's a really simple install.

G'Day Pinny, thanks for that mate, and I'm sure you're right, I fitted one to my ageing 1981 Suzuki GS1000S, and I've had no electricals problems since, apart from a bad stator, which is common on Suzy's.

My problem (well, one of my many problems.....) is the tyranny of distance, so I need a favor mate, how about I pay you to locate these items (regulator/rectifier x 2 sets please, I'll replace the set on my F2 while I'm at it)and send 'em out to me here in Oz?

In return (apart from the money) you'll have my eternal respect, and I'll read all your technical posts at least twice, even though I probably won't understand much of it? Thanks mate! Cheers, Terry.

Griffy, I get up at 5am on weekdays, and like a true super-hero ("Terry Man"? "Walking Dude"? "The Strider"?) attired in my sweat pants, a sweaty T Shirt and my new Nike's (they're SOOOO comfy!) I stride manfully for 5 klicks in under 40 minutes (5 klicks is a tad over 3 "miles" in that lost language that you guys still desperately cling on to like a worn out security blanket at an old peoples home) creating a "wake" strong enough to tip over small cars and strip the paint off my neighbours fences as I flash by.

I don't know what "Bermuda Shorts" are, but that's not my look mate, once I decide what my superhero tag will be, I'll have it emblazoned on a cape that I've been eyeing off at the local haberdashery store! (funds are short, so I'll have to "lay-away" it, ha ha!) Cheers, Terry.

Breezy, it's too late to carry out a "post-Mortem" mate, I dispatched the stator assembly to the "circular file", ha ha!

[Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er]

Hey "SUPER COOLER", you're tha man! And don't talk about my blankie or my home, ha ha  . Bermuda shorts are those old hideous shorts that fit from your chest to your knees and are quite baggy. And on top of that I've ridden up north in our 51st state (I know that will piss off some of our Canadian neighbors - chill, I'm just kiddin- I like you crazy folks!) so I understand klicks AND clits. At least when you're talking 150 I'll now know you haven't even broken 100.

How's that monster motor coming? Finally a little (very little) progress on mine. Mike has the head and the crank will be shipped to Big Jay hopefully within the next week. It's too damn cold (below zero F - you guys use C or F down below?) and way too much snow to play (except ski) so I might as well work to support my habit.

Cheerio (not the cereal) old chap.

[medic09]

Hey Terry,

I'd email the guy at Oregon Motorcycle Parts and run your replacement parts needs past him.  His parts have a good reputation, and I can tell you that he's quite helpful via email.  www.oregonmotorcycleparts.com

[oldbiker]

You can keep your 'klicks' Terry.  I don't believe in that foreign rubbish. I think you only use it because 100k sounds faster than 60mph.

[Terry in Australia]

You can keep your 'klicks' Terry.  I don't believe in that foreign rubbish. I think you only use it because 100k sounds faster than 60mph.

Hey, don't you start on me John, aren't you guys part of Europe now, where metrification originated? How many "Euro's" for a Pork Pie at that horrid cafeteria in "Australia House" in the Strand?  I still remember that thing every time I step in dog shiite mate, I think "I bet that would taste better than that friggin pork pie I ate in Australia house in the strand in 1974", ha ha!

Hey Terry,

I'd email the guy at Oregon Motorcycle Parts and run your replacement parts needs past him. His parts have a good reputation, and I can tell you that he's quite helpful via email. www.oregonmotorcycleparts.com

Hey you're the man mate, (what's yer freakin' name anyway?) I'll never call a medic a "scab lifter" again, ha ha!

Hey "SUPER COOLER", you're tha man! And don't talk about my blankie or my home, ha ha . Bermuda shorts are those old hideous shorts that fit from your chest to your knees and are quite baggy. And on top of that I've ridden up north in our 51st state (I know that will piss off some of our Canadian neighbors - chill, I'm just kiddin- I like you crazy folks!) so I understand klicks AND clits. At least when you're talking 150 I'll now know you haven't even broken 100.

How's that monster motor coming? Finally a little (very little) progress on mine. Mike has the head and the crank will be shipped to Big Jay hopefully within the next week. It's too damn cold (below zero F - you guys use C or F down below?) and way too much snow to play (except ski) so I might as well work to support my habit.

Cheerio (not the cereal) old chap.

Now Griffy, wealthy Pom's (Englishmen) call each other "Old Chap", here in Oz, it's either "mate", or "hey dickhead!" if you're trying to get someone's attention. (we don't take offence at much, if you haven't noticed already)

The K1 "Power-Kruiser" is almost on the road, it's still a 750, but with Mike's Stage 3 head, RC Engineering studs, M3 racing cam chain adjuster, Tsubaki cam chain, Megacycle 125/75 cam, Dyna S ignition and Dyna 3 Ohm coils, Keihin CR29mm carbs (in the box, just waiting for new pods maybe next week?) Peter Allen Race pipe, etc etc. (see pic)

The 1166 engine is still waiting on me to start, I still need a CB1100F or "R" crank and rods, I've got the 72mm forged MTC pistons, Ape Stud Kit, Andrews "K" grind cam, Mikuni 34mm flat slide race carbs, (geez they're light) vintage multi-spark race ignition, all I need is some more time, and maybe another one of Mike's brilliant heads. I also need to shortly rebuild my stock K3 engine to finish my restored bike, (I've got all the parts, just need some more time) and I need to build a mild 836CC engine for my other K2, whew! "Super Cooler" does have a certain ring to it, ha ha!  

[medic09]

Terry,  tell Tony Weeks at Oregon that you're a member of the illustrious SOHC4 forum.  Actually, he likes the forum.  Told me that someone here beta tested parts for him.  He emailed me several times until I was clear with the answers to my questions.  His web site will tell you most of what you need to know. There's at least on thread about him on the forum.  A handful of members have used his parts pretty happily.

Good luck.

Mordechai

[Pinhead]

Hey, Terry: Here's the same regulator that I used in my project on ebay for $10

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/75-76-77-78-79-92-FORD-F150-VOLTAGE-REGULATOR-VR301S_W0QQitemZ290005198248QQcmdZViewItem

Ships worldwide. You can continue to use your stock rectifier.

[Terry in Australia]

Hey, Terry: Here's the same regulator that I used in my project on ebay for $10

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/75-76-77-78-79-92-FORD-F150-VOLTAGE-REGULATOR-VR301S_W0QQitemZ290005198248QQcmdZViewItem

Ships worldwide. You can continue to use your stock rectifier.

Thanks mate! I just asked him a question about combined shipping, if he does, I might buy a few? Cheers, Terry.

Terry, tell Tony Weeks at Oregon that you're a member of the illustrious SOHC4 forum. Actually, he likes the forum. Told me that someone here beta tested parts for him. He emailed me several times until I was clear with the answers to my questions. His web site will tell you most of what you need to know. There's at least on thread about him on the forum. A handful of members have used his parts pretty happily.

Good luck.

Mordechai

Thanks mate! Mordechai is too much of a mouthfull to a simpleton like me, but I'm guessing you don't like "Morty", so how about I call you "Trevor"? Cheers, Terry.

[TomC]

Hi Terry
     Not on specking terms with the mechanics at your local Ford dealer? I would be surprised if your local branch of Ford did not use this or a functionally equivalent voltage regulator.
          TomC

[Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er]

Hey Dickhead, erh Super Cooler.......  Thats really more of the real me anyway  . Too many projects too little time and cash. VERY familiar. The new bike looks nice. Can't wait to hear how that 125/75 cam acts in mid range and top end. Also I'll need a report on the CR29s. I haven't decided on what cam for the Big Block yet but plan on using CR31s. Still on the hunt for 3 piece oil rings for the 70mm and 73mm pistons.