Topic: What oil to use, here is a great article.

[Rocking-M]

OIL IS KILLING OUR CARS!!!!!
By: Keith Ansell, Foreign Parts Positively, Inc.


About a year ago I read about the reduction of zinc dithiophosphate (ZDDP) in the oils supplied with API approval that could affect sliding and high pressure (EP) friction in our cars. The reduction of these chemicals in supplied oil was based on the fact that zinc, manganese and/or phosphates reduce the effectiveness and eventually damage catalytic converters and introduce minute amounts of pollutants into our atmosphere.

A month or so ago I had a member of the Columbia Gorge MG Club bring a totally failed camshaft and lifters back to me that had only 900 miles on them!! I immediately contacted the camshaft regrinder and asked how this could happen. They were well aware of this problem as they were starting to have many failures of this type. In the past, the lack of a molybdenum disulfide camshaft assembly lubricant, at assembly, was about the only thing that could create this type of problem. My customer has assembled many engines and had lubricated the camshaft properly and followed correct break in procedures.

This got me on the phone to Delta Camshaft, one of our major suppliers. Then the bad news came out: It’s today’s “modern” API (American Petroleum Industry) approved oils that are killing our engines.

Next call: To another major camshaft supplier, both stock and performance (Crane). They now have an additive for whatever oil you are using during break-in so that the camshaft and lifters won’t fail in an unreasonably short period of time. They also suggest using a diesel rated oil on flat tappet engines.

Next call: To a racing oil manufacturer that we use for the race cars (Redline). Their response: “We are well aware of the problem and we still use the correct amounts of those additives in our products”. They continued to tell me they are not producing API approved oils so they don’t have to test and comply. Their oils were NOT the “new, improved and approved” ones that destroy flat tappet engines! “We just build the best lubricants possible”. Sounds stupid, doesn’t it, New-Approved but inferior products, but it seems to be true for our cars. To top this off: Our representative from a major supplier of performance and street engine parts (EPWI) stopped by to “warn us” of the problem of the NEW oils on flat tappet engines. This was a call that the representative was making only because of this problem to warn their engine builders! “The reduction of the zinc, manganese and phosphates are causing very early destruction of cams and followers”. They are recommending that, for now at least, there must be a proper oil additive put
in the first oil used on new engines, beyond the liberal use of molydisulfide assembly lube. They have been told that the first oil is the time the additives are needed but remain skeptical that the first change is all that is necessary. Their statement: Use diesel rated oils such as Delo or Rotella that are usually available at auto stores and gas stations.
This problem is BIG! American Engine Rebuilder's Association (AERA) Bulletin #TB2333 directly addresses this problem. I had a short discussion with their engineer and he agreed with all that I had been finding.

OIL IS KILLING OUR CARS!!!!!

Next phone call was to a retired engineer from Clevite, a major bearing and component manufacturer. First surprise was that he restored older British Motor bikes. The second surprise was that he was “VERY” aware of this problem because many of the old bikes had rectangular tappets that couldn’t rotate and are having a very large problem with the new oils. He has written an article for the British Bike community that verify all the “bad news” we have been finding. Comp Cams put out “#225 Tech Bulletin: Flat Tappet Camshafts”. They have both an assembly lube and an oil additive. The telling sentence in the bulletin was “While this additive was originally developed specifically for break-in benefits of its long term use. This special blend of additives promotes proper break-in and protects against premature cam and lifter failure by replacing some of the beneficial ingredients that the oil companies have been required to remove from the off the–shelf oil”.

Next question: Now what do we do?

From the camshaft re-grinders (DeltaCam) “Use oils rated for diesel use”, Delo (Standard Oil product) was named. About the same price as other quality petroleum based oils. They are not API formulated and have the zinc dithiophosphate we need in weights we are familiar with.

From the camshaft manufacturer (Crane): “use our additive” for at least the first 500 miles.

From General Motors (Chevrolet): add EOS, their oil fortifier, to your oil, it’s only about $12.00 for each oil change for an 8 ounce can (This problem seems to be something GM has known about for some time!).

From Redline Oil: Use our street formulated synthetics. They have what we need!

From our major oil distributor: Distributing Castro, Redline, Valvoline and Industrial oils: “After over a week of contacts we have verified that the major oil companies are aware of the problem”. “The representatives of the oil companies today are only aware of marketing programs and have no knowledge of formulation”. The only major oil companies they were aware of for doing anything to address this are Valvoline that is offering an “Off Road 20W-50” and Redline.

From Castrol: We are beginning to see a pattern emerging on older cars. It may be advantageous to use a non-approved lubricant, such as oils that are Diesel rated, 4 Cycle Motorcycle oils and other specified diesel oils.
Last question: So what are we at Foreign Parts Positively going to do? After much research we are switching to Redline Street rated oils and stocking the Castrol products that are diesel rated. Castrol, owned by British Petroleum, is now just a brand name. This is a difficult decision as we have been a dealer and great believer in all Castrol Products for over 40 years. We have been using Castrol Syntech oil in new engines for about 3 years so the cost difference in changing to Redline is minimal. The actual cost in operation is also less as the additive package in Redline makes a 1-year or up to 18,000 mile change recommended! Yes, it is a long change interval but with lowered sulfur levels and the elimination of lead and many other chemicals in the fuels there are less contaminants in our oil from the fuel, which is the major contributor to oil degradation. We will continue to offer the Castrol products but will now only stock the suggested diesel oils that they produce.

Part II.

Last month’s report on this subject is turning out to be just the tip of the iceberg!
Many publications have had this subject of zinc-dialkyl-dithiophosphate (ZDDP) covered in varying depths over the last few months. Some publications have even had conflicting stories when you compare one month’s article with their next month’s article! They are all ending up supporting our report.

I have had the good fortune to have the ear of quite a few leaders in the industry including some wonderful input from Castrol. We have been very reluctant to “dump” Castrol, as it has been such a great supporter of our cars and industry over the years. Castrol hasn’t really abandoned our cars, just shifted to a more mass marketing mode. Many Castrol products are not appropriate for our cars today, some still are.

Now for the latest report:

#1 Castrol GTX 20W-50 is still good for our cars after break-in! 10W-40, 10W-30 and other grades are NOT good. Absolute NOT GOOD for any oil (Any Brand) that is marked “Energy Conserving” in the API “Donut” on the bottle, these oils are so low with ZDDP or other additives that they will destroy our cams. Virtually all “Diesel” rated oils are acceptable.

#2 Castrol HD 30 is a very good oil for break-in of new motors. This oil has one of the largest concentrations of ZDDP and Moly to conserve our cams and tappets.

#3 Only an unusual Castrol Syntec 20W- 50 approaches the levels of protection we need when we look to the better synthetic lubricants. We are attempting to get this oil but will be using Redline 10W-40 or 10W-30 as these are lighter weights for better performance, flow volume, less drag and has the additive package we need.

#4 The trend today is to lighter weight oils to decrease drag, which increases mileage. Most of these seem to be the “Energy Conservation” oils that we cannot use.

#5 Redline oil and others are suggesting a 3,000-mile break-in for new engines! Proper seating of rings, with today’s lubricants is taking that long to properly seal. Shifting to synthetics before that time will just burn a lot of oil and not run as well as hoped.

#6 The “Energy Conservation“ trend was first lead by automakers to increase mileage numbers and secondly because the ZDDP and other chemicals degrade the catalytic converter after extended miles, increasing pollution. We don’t have catalytic converters and the mileage gains are not that significant for most of us. For you science buffs: ZDDP is a single polar molecule that is attracted to Iron based metals. The one polar end tends to “Stand” the molecule up on the metal surface that it is bonded to by heat and friction. This forms a sacrificial layer to protect the base metal of the cam and tappet from contacting each other.

Only at very high pressures on a flat tappet cam is this necessary because the oil is squeezed/wiped from the surface. This high pressure is also present on the gudgeon pin (wrist pin) in diesel engines, therefore the need for ZDDP in diesel engines. Second part of the equation is Molybdenum disulfide (Moly). The moly bonds to the zinc adding an additional, very slippery, sacrificial layer to the metal. I found out that too much of the moly will create problems; lack of this material reduces the effectiveness of the ZDDP. The percentage, by weight is from .01 to .02%, not much, but necessary. Latest conclusions: Running our older, broken in engines on Castrol 20W-50 GTX is ok. Break in a new engine for 3,000 miles on HD 30 Castrol. New engines (after break-in) and fairly low mileage engines will do best with the Redline 10W-40 or 10W-30 synthetic.

[mrbreeze]

I have always used Castrol GTX 10-40 or Valvoline 10-40. So you are saying that the GTX is OK but only 20-50 or any diesel oil is OK (such as Delo or Rotella). As I recall,the diesel oils are 15-40. Is this OK? I live in an area that can get up to 110 degrees in the summer but I would say my usualriding temps would be between 70-100 degrees. I have read here of people using the diesel oil and it didn't hit home till you provided this post. So what would you recommend for my temp zone...Castrol 20-50 or Rotella 15-40?

[ofreen]

So what would you recommend for my temp zone...Castrol 20-50 or Rotella 15-40?

The concern about the reduction of ZDDP and other additives to car oil is not a new one.  If you want these additives, you can use a motorcycle specific oil.  I live in southern Idaho, where it is cold in the winter and hot in the summer.  For winter, I use 10-40, and 20-50 in the summer in all my bikes.  I use BMW oil made by Spectro because I like the people who run the local BMW shop, but there are other good ones.

[mrbreeze]

Ofreen, I know what you mean about temp. extremes. Riverton, Wyoming (92' to 04') Don't recall ever getting to 100 degrees in the summer but do recall 40 below in the winter a few times. As far as oil, I don't really want to go for the high $ stuff at the bike shop as long as delo or rotella would be just as well. I can even get Castrol 20-50 at Wal mart for cheap if it is the way to go. I would think 20-50 would be better for my temp range (lets call it 85 to 100 degrees in the middle of riding season here). I often wondered if they were taking stuff out of the auto oil due to emissions and such. I'm glad our bikes aren't so old that they have to have leaded gas and I will start running the better suited oil.

[tonys10]

what about sythetics, in general? Do they have lubricating properties that do not require these additives?

[mrbreeze]

Something about the clutch discs is what I have heard but didn't really do enough research.

[Shadowjack1020]

The story is that they're lowering the ZDDP because the combustion residue coats the O2 sensors and kills them. High-efficiency engines all have roller tappets, so you don't need the extra protection anymore.

[Rocking-M]

Hey, I've always sworn by Castol 20-50 and this article seems to confirm that notion.
I had taken to running 10-40 Castol of late in the winters because of the colder temps.
Now that doesn't look like a good idea.
Even changed the 750's oil yesterday to ...10-40  now I got to drain it.

[RRRToolSolutions]

Hey, thanks for taking the time to post this. It's good information and one of those post I walk away from "a little smarter".

The old and beaten "synthetic vs conventional" debate is one I had to learn for myself. There are 2 simple field test you can do that will convince you whether the expense is worth it.
1) Fill small, identical plastic containers 1/2 full with your favorites - 10-30, 10-40, 20-50 oil ect in both conventional and synthetic flavors. Store these in your freezer for a day or so. Once they've reached the nice, frosty temps of a cold winter's night - take then out and turn the containers and watch how the synthetics of the same weights always out-pour/flow the conventionals.

Conclusion - If my engine is sitting there for hours or days and the oil has drained-back into the sump leaving bearings and friction parts without full protection, A) I want the quickest flowing oil in there to reach my vital metal/metal components B) I want to generate the least amount of load/wear on my components until the oil is flowing and I'm sure the lubricating film is between the parts  - so I never race, rev,  or ride a cold engine until I've given those parts time to warm up.

2) Take your most abused, unappreciated possession - that Briggs powered, air-cooled lawn mower and drain the oil. Look at it once drained. It's probably black, smells burnt, and is thick from months of high heat which has caused the viscosity to go up. Now go buy 2 quarts of Mobile 1 synthetic or one of your favorites (Redline, Motul, ect are excellent choices too). Refill your Briggs engine using the synthetic of the recommended weight and cut grass for a few months - even years.

Conclusion - I did this about 10-12 years ago in an old Murray and the results were amazing. With conventional oil, the engine oil would turn black in just 2-3 cuttings. After 6, it was getting thick and would not be flowing to the parts quickly (damages were certain to occure as demonstrated by the "flow test" mentioned earlier). With the Synthetic, I went an entire season with probably 40 cuttings and the oil still looked almost like what I'd poured in 8 months earliier. I've since bought 2 Snappers and there is no doubt about my choice for oils.

I've since learned that conventional oils burn-off, vaporize and leave varnish and thicken at approx 350 degrees. Redline and others go all of the way to nearly 600 degrees before vaporizing. This is why they retain their designed viscosity much longer, don't leave the varnish, and can provide better protection over time.

In fact, every bike, car, truck, boat, generator, mower I own has synthetic based on my own Briggs research. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, just suggesting that if you're not already decided - do some of your own research.

Regards,
Gordon

[xtalon]

Redline is definitely good stuff.  I heard from ex-racecar driver that oil sponsored race teams used to poor out their sponsored oil and refill the containers with Redline.  Granted this was probably many years ago and all oils have probably changed by now, but it's still a testament to Redline.

And no, I don't work for them.  I use Mobil 1 synthetic.

--xTalon

[mrbreeze]

If Redline was easily obtainable at a modest price (like maybe Walmart for $2---2.25 per Qt.) I'd probably use it. I like to change my oil at 1 to 1.5 K miles so why not use the cheaper and easier to find oils like Castrol GTX 20-50 or the Diesel 15-40's? As long as the desirable additives are there and its changed often. What about all the flak about using synthetic creating havoc with clutch linings? Unless I hear enough to the contrary, I will switch over to the diesel oil.

[TomC]

Hi Gordon
     "Take your most abused, unappreciated possession - that Briggs powered, air-cooled lawn mower and drain the oil. Look at it once drained. It's probably black, smells burnt, and is thick from months of high heat which has caused the viscosity to go up. Now go buy 2 quarts of Mobile 1 synthetic or one of your favorites (Redline, Motul, ect are excellent choices too). Refill your Briggs engine using the synthetic of the recommended weight and cut grass for a few months - even years."
      I agree both with my mower being my most abused engine and that Running synthetic in it has been a good idea.
          TomC

[jbailey]

The stories about clutch, seal or any other problems always come from morons who do NO research and just repeat gossip and urban myths.

I use Rotella T SYNTHETIC in 5 bikes which includes a 1973 and 1975 Honda, a 2004 and 2005 Kawasaki, and a 2006 Suzuki with NO problems.  In fact not only are there no problems, but all of the bikes shift smoother with synthetic.

Only a complete idiot would reccomend NOT using syntheitc oil.

This website seems to have decided to hide it's head in the sand and ignore facts when it comes to oil.  Check the FAQ on this site and it tells you NOT to use synthetic oil.  This is the ONLY website that tells you that.  I have not found any other place with such bad misinformnation on the topic.

[Master Ted]

Hey Rock - just a note of thanks for passing this along. Danka!

[TwoTired]

Only a complete idiot would reccomend NOT using syntheitc oil.

What about incomplete idiots?

I was thinking that other categories of people recommended against synthetic oil, too.  Such as ignorant and uninformed.  Perhaps these were latent idiots, or covert idiots?   But, I could be mistaken.

Perhaps we've hit upon the ideal idiot detector? A simple oil question?

Hmmmm....

What I'd like to know is, can a Synthetic oil refined from oil base stock be as effective as a manufactured Synthetic oil (PAO or ester)?

I have no affiliation or advocation of Synlube, BTW.  I've never used their products either.  But, the site was "interesting". From:
http://www.synlube.com/synthetic.htm

SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) deleted any and all definitions of "synthetic" from all specifications relating to oils.

API (American Petroleum Institute) never defined what "synthetic" is.

NAD (National Advertising Division of the Council of Better Business Bureaus) ruled that "Synthetic" is a marketing term and that it is the responsibility of the Marketer (the one who labels and markets the oil) to define what it is.

How much are you willing to pay for a marketing term?

I have nothing against "Synthetic" oils, BTW.  I use them in a blend.  But, it's pretty hard, near impossible, for the consumer to know what he is getting, beside a lighter wallet.  Isn't capitalism great?

Cheers,

P.S.  I think the Synthetic warning in the FAQ should be removed. IMO

[Master Ted]

I passed along your article to a friend with all the experience, education and background one can ask for on a topic such as this. Here are his comments in response:


>>>*I hear rumblings out there. The first indication we had was a run of CMC (USA made) blanks several years ago. Since we had probably gone through 500 with zero problems, my instinct was to blame it on the cam blank.

We switched to TAE as a supplier, kinda *spensive but cheap if it worked and it seemed to. Plus we added a Parkerizing process to the camshafts, this is a protective coating that absorbs and helps retain oil molecules.

I also noted that at the same time we got our hands on some 100 sets of aftermarket rocker arms, and we were losing those also.

Of course I blamed the problem on those as not being up to snuff, did some testing, then gave up supplying them. I have been thinking of Parkerizing the new rocker arms, not sure how well that will work with the bi-metal, though.

But reconditioned arms worked, solved that problem. That was all Toyota pieces. The trouble there is good used arms are getting kinda scarce. I threw some 400+ brand new rocker arms in the aluminum bin. One Reno trip down the tubes there.

Then: In came a SBC stick, flat. NBD, happens all the time on Chevies except within a week here was another, then two more. Once or twice I can tell a customer they may have made a mistake, hand them a new stick and lecture them.

Three times in short order and something is wrong, time to start digging to find out WTH is going on!

I visit the FE board (390-428 Fords) regularly, bunch of old coots like me that want the engine to rumble or it ain't an engine from their point of view.

Flat cams, over and over and over. UNHEARD of on the FE design. I will wager I never saw a flat 390 cam in 30 years of building those, doesn't happen.

Comp Cams got blamed, but Cranes, regrinds, everything else was going out, too. Then Johnson started making lifters again, let's face it, China was the only source for several years and they just weren't up to speed. The problem eased but didn't vanish.

We have folks now using specialized coatings trying to solve a problem that never existed. There are a bunch of comments over there right now about flat lobes.

Then I spotted an article on oil and it hit me. Note that Toyota and other designs popped up with the "Sludge" problem in there about the same time in the nearly unvented newer engine designs (2.7L and others)... I don't much believe in co-incidence.

Yep. Oil. Now I did get a small petrochemistry education a jillion years ago, pretty much "This is oil and it's slick" but still I know about most additives and how they work.

I am hearing the same rumblings out there myself. We use the flame hardened cam blanks on our own production runs and at the moment we are seeing almost no failures. But every time a domestic H/P cam goes out the door I cringe a little.

Note that the factories all pretty much went to roller cams? I wonder if they knew ahead of us? Probably.

But now were are seeing roller cams with tracks worn in them from the rollers? We use to reinstall the rollers with over 150,000 on them and think nothing of it.

Not any more.

I suspect there will be a lot more information coming, but so far we aren't seeing any failures beyond normal with our own stuff. I will bet that most suppliers start using different hardening techniques though, some already are...

*I wish government would quit screwing with stuff....*

[dpen]

So what is the end result of all this?

I've used Pennzoil 20-50 for years in bikes ranging from a 650 BSA to a Harley Evolution motor

Should I stay with this or change to a diesel or synthetic?

What, if any harm would a change do to a K7 with ?? (lots) mileage, good compression, no major work carried out and oil & filter changes every 1,500ks

[ic455]

The stories about clutch, seal or any other problems always come from morons who do NO research and just repeat gossip and urban myths.

I use Rotella T SYNTHETIC in 5 bikes which includes a 1973 and 1975 Honda, a 2004 and 2005 Kawasaki, and a 2006 Suzuki with NO problems.  In fact not only are there no problems, but all of the bikes shift smoother with synthetic.

Only a complete idiot would reccomend NOT using syntheitc oil.

This website seems to have decided to hide it's head in the sand and ignore facts when it comes to oil.  Check the FAQ on this site and it tells you NOT to use synthetic oil.  This is the ONLY website that tells you that.  I have not found any other place with such bad misinformnation on the topic.

 

It's great that you have had no problems running synth in your bikes, but that doesn't mean that everyone else is an idiot for either not using it or recommending that it not be used.  It was mentioned in two other posts about doing your own research, I agree with this.  If it works for you, great.  If not, do warn us about it so that we can make an informed decision on whether or not to try it.  In the same spirit of your post, one could say that you are an idiot for using synth and for recommending it.  If the majority of Mods on this forum believe either through first-hand experience or reports from others that synth is bad for our bikes, then why shouldn't there be a warning?  It all comes back to doing your own research and testing and then going with what works best for you, reporting these results is an excellent way to help others; belittling anyone with views that differ from yours is not.

BTW, I've always used dino and probably always will, because like TT said, you just can't be sure you're getting what you pay for.

[eldar]

Well I can only say 2 things if you have bad luck with synthetic.
1: You chose the wrong oil.
2: your equipment was not in decent operational condition.

My 78k has only seen conventional, I will not call it dino as I do not believe that is the source. I switched to synth this spring. Shifts are very good. Lubing is very good. No leaks at all and I have never done any headwork and have only replaced the tach seal and shifter seal. And that was last year before I switched.

[Pinhead]

Ought to look into using Amsoil. Good stuff.

[jbailey]

I did not say you were an idiot if you did not reccomend synthetic oil.  What I said was only an idiot would reccomend AGAINST using it, such as in our incorrect FAQ.  Just having this "FAQ" is a statement of ignorance.  The whole FAQ is an opinion and an incorrect one at that.  This is not 1975.  All oils have changed dramatically since 1975.  Car oil is no longer anywhere similar to what was available in 1975.  Either use "diesel", motorcycle specific or synthetic.  These are the ONLY choices.  The choice is yours, but do a LITTLE research before making ignorant statements or posting FAQ's that are inaccurate and misleading.

[Gordon]

I did not say you were an idiot if you did not reccomend synthetic oil.  What I said was only an idiot would reccomend AGAINST using it, such as in our incorrect FAQ.  Just having this "FAQ" is a statement of ignorance.  The whole FAQ is an opinion and an incorrect one at that.  This is not 1975.  All oils have changed dramatically since 1975.  Car oil is no longer anywhere similar to what was available in 1975.  Either use "diesel", motorcycle specific or synthetic.  These are the ONLY choices.  The choice is yours, but do a LITTLE research before making ignorant statements or posting FAQ's that are inaccurate and misleading.

How's about just not using the word "idiot" at all?  There's a big difference between saying someone is ignorant about something (which is not an insult) and calling someone an idiot. 

[jbailey]

People who repeatedly make ignorant statements and refuse to listen to facts are idiots!  Gotta call 'em like I see 'em.

[edbikerii]

While your use of the word "idiot" seems a bit abrasive, I fully understand that you are as sick and tired of this ridiculous subject as I am.  All the information is out there on the web, for anybody to check if they would merely take the time.  So there's no reason to argue over it YET AGAIN.

People who repeatedly make ignorant statements and refuse to listen to facts are idiots!  Gotta call 'em like I see 'em.

[Wheelhorse77]

This seems to be a common battle:

IS there a post that shows how many have switched to sythetic on stock Honda clutches with good results?

Reason I ask is that a buddy of mine put mobil one so-called fully synthetic in his cb600 two years ago and no bs, the clutch started slipping.

I would hate to have to replace the clutch for that reason, but also don't want to crap out my engine at the same time in the ol sohc