Topic: What oil to use, here is a great article.

[ic455]

I did not say you were an idiot if you did not reccomend synthetic oil.  What I said was only an idiot would reccomend AGAINST using it, such as in our incorrect FAQ.  Just having this "FAQ" is a statement of ignorance.  The whole FAQ is an opinion and an incorrect one at that.  This is not 1975.  All oils have changed dramatically since 1975.  Car oil is no longer anywhere similar to what was available in 1975.  Either use "diesel", motorcycle specific or synthetic.  These are the ONLY choices.  The choice is yours, but do a LITTLE research before making ignorant statements or posting FAQ's that are inaccurate and misleading.

I'd say that it's your opinion that diesel, moto specific or synth oils are the only choice.  What if I want to dump DEX into my engine and see what happens?  Have you researched the use of "diesel" oil?  Ever opened a jug of Rotella 15-40?  WHY would it be good in a bike?  How about because it it designed for a very long drain interval (30,000 miles or more) and extreme duty use such as temps below 10 degrees F, not to mention the stress of operating an engine that pulls a total weight up to 80,000 pounds?  What does it look like at service time, after 30,000 miles in an International 9300i?  Looks like black water, but so does every other diesel oil after that much abuse. 
I guess what I really want to know is how can you be a member of this forum and bash the #$%* out of it like you are?  The FAQ, as useless as you say it is, has helped anyone who took enough time to read it, has in fact, pretty much been my "go to" source when a new problem pops up with my bike.  Forget the oil debate, I'd like to know why you are being such a Scheißekopf

[jbailey]

You're right, why bother.  Ignorance is bliss.

I actually wrote to Glenn a while back, providing scientific information proving the oil "FAQ" is wrong.  As you can see, he could care less about it.  Information is only helpful if it is correct.  Believe what you want, and enjoy your bliss.

Mobil One automotive oils now contain Moly in all grades.  Sorry, that may just be my opinion since I no longer work for ExxonMobil.

[Gordon]

I would hate to have to replace the clutch for that reason, but also don't want to crap out my engine at the same time in the ol sohc

Are you worried about crapping out your engine just by using non-synthetic oil?  I don't think that's something you need to worry about. 

[ic455]

You're right, why bother.  Ignorance is bliss.

I actually wrote to Glenn a while back, providing scientific information proving the oil "FAQ" is wrong.  As you can see, he could care less about it.  Information is only helpful if it is correct.  Believe what you want, and enjoy your bliss.

Mobil One automotive oils now contain Moly in all grades.  Sorry, that may just be my opinion since I no longer work for ExxonMobil.

The chemical properties of the oil aren't my concern, the performance in the real world is.  Having spent 2 years as a heavy truck technician after my first 5 as an auto tech, I am really only interested in actual performance instead of lab results. 
You have made an interesting argument and provided a different viewpoint, which is what this is all about.  It's just the lack of civility that gives me pause. 
Question:  If you no longer work for ExxonMobil, how do you know what their oils now contain?  Were you a chemist?  Researcher?  Bottler?  Enlighten us. 
Oh, and if you want to call me ignorant, why not just do it straight away, save the subtlety for someone else. 
Cheers 

[jbailey]

If I want to know what is in the bread that I might eat, I check the ingredients.  With Chemicals they have what is called an MSDS which lists the ingredients.  Actually Oil is probably one of the easiest commercially available products to find information about.  You just have to educate yourself as to which ingredients you want or not depending on the application.  Here is an excellent website with more information than you will ever need regarding oil:  http://www.bobistheoilguy.com

[ic455]

I thought the Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) was more of a guide as to the possible risks of using/being exposed to the chemicals listed within, as well as info on how to treat exposure, fires, or other safety related issues.

[jbailey]

That's right, but it does list the ingredients.  You will find it much like pulling teeth trying to get an oil company to tell you what's in their oil.  It's "proprietary" information, even though truth be told the ingredients are pretty much the same, just catered to the application.  There really is no magic ingredient in any oil.  Do yourself a favor and read all you can and then make your own decision.  Don't wait for Harry or Glenn.

[ic455]

That's right, but it does list the ingredients.  You will find it much like pulling teeth trying to get an oil company to tell you what's in their oil.  It's "proprietary" information, even though truth be told the ingredients are pretty much the same, just catered to the application.  There really is no magic ingredient in any oil.  Do yourself a favor and read all you can and then make your own decision.  Don't wait for Harry or Glenn.

I've already decided to use Rotella at next oil change, it works great for long-haul trucks, so I'm sure it'll work fine in my bike.  I've also used it in cars and light trucks with no ill effects.  Any benefit was unseen, however, in those applications.  Hard to find it in anything smaller than a 1-gallon jug, though

[dpen]

Now that all the bad mouthing & sh*t slinging is out of the way, how about an answer to the big question

Is it worthwhile changing to a diesel or synthetic oil in a 750/4 that has big mileage

[Deltarider]

Gentlemen, gentlemen, please, calm, calm now...

Discovery Channel regularly shows "The greatest motorcycle ever". The winner in the top-ten is the Honda Supercub. In the program they try to ruin it's engine by draining the oil and filling it with old cooking oil used for French fries. All in vain, it simply runs on and on and on.

Still no answer to an interesting question I've seen here before. Why is it that the oilchange-interval of the CB650 is double the interval of the cb500/550 series. They carry more or less the same amount of oil and technically they are very much alike.

[eldar]

Well here is my "research".  If someone wants to call me ignorant, great at least I am happy to find something that works for me and if ignorance is bliss, then I must be really happy!

I used valvoline 10-40 and havoline 10-40 years ago. Never had an issue, those oils are not "energy conserving" and so seem to contain little if any moly.

later on I moved to rotella T regular since people here were using it with good results. And it is better, shifts were better and the engine was a bit quieter and smoother.

This spring I switched to rotella synth and that seems to be even better. Shifts are great but then I never have pop outs only the occasional missed shift which has lessened to only 1 so far this year and my foot slipped off the shifter cause I was in the rain. The best thing about this is that I will not have to change oil until the end of the season for storage, maybe not even then depending on what my oil looks like. That is the nice thing about synth oils, they last longer.

[jbailey]

Eldar and all offended,

I never said you were ignorant or whatever if you didn't agree with me.  What I can't stand is that certain people on this board seem to be living in a vacuum and will not accept the fact that ALL oils have changed drastically since the mid seventies when our bikes were built.

The oil that Mr. Honda specified for our old bikes does NOT exist anymore.  The closest thing would be a "diesel" oil if you analyzed what a standard 10W-40 was like in the mid seventies.  Over the course of the last 30-40 years the oils that are now sold as "automotive" oils have had many changes to their additive packages.  The biggest concern is the deletion of Phosphorus and Zinc to a great extent and the addition of Friction modifiers such as (but not limited to) Moly.  The Heavy Duty Oils that we refer to these days as "diesel" oils still have these essential components, AND no moly (although Chevron is using small amounts in Delo).  The other factor in most motorcycles is the use of a unit transmission which means that the gears are lubed by the same oil as the crankcase.  The problem is that multigrade oils contain polymers to make them act like different oils at different temperatures.  These polymers are little strings of plastic which get cut to pieces when run through gears.  "Automotive" oils are not manufactured to withstand this because no cars have gears inside their engines.  In fact regular diesel oils also have this problem, but because they are 15W-40 they contain less polymers so they shear less. The main advantage of ANY synthetic oil in a motorcycle is that they contain even less if any polymers.  Synthetic oil does not thicken when cold like "mineral" oils do.  What this means is that a 10W-30 synthetic generally contain NO polymers because they are really straight 30 weight synthetic oil which at low temperatures just happens to be the same viscosity as a mineral 10W oil.  Therefore it appears to be the same as a 10W-30!  That's the only magic about it.  When Mr. Honda made our bikes he did not have access to synthetic oils, so the next best thing was to use what was available at the time and tell people to change it just before the shearing cuts the viscosity too much, such as 1500 miles.

Some people would like to believe that Mr. Honda made the choice and etched it in stone and that nothing has changed over the last 40 years.  All I ask is that before people make ignorant statements such as our illutrious FAQ does, they should make use of the tools available and find out what is new in the world!

[jbailey]

If more people would let Glenn know that the Oil FAQ is out if date and incorrect, MAYBE he would change it to something accurate.

[Bob Wessner]

Is this the FAQ entry in question?

http://www.sohc4.us/forums/index.php?topic=264.msg1414#msg1414

[ic455]

Is this the FAQ entry in question?

http://www.sohc4.us/forums/index.php?topic=264.msg1414#msg1414

I think that is the one jbailey was referring to

[ic455]

I forgot to mention that I have a slipping clutch since changing my oil.....wanna know what oil I put in it?  Autozone bargain special--Coastal 10W40.  Supposed to be just your old standard oil, but the clutch wasn't slipping with the year old oil that was in my engine.  Don't know what brand it was, but it probably doesn't matter anyway.  Going to change oil again and fill with Rotella 15-40 and see what happens.

[jbailey]

Yes that's the FAQ.  It starts out by telling you to use MINERAL oil because that's what they used 40 years ago, and then repeates almost every incorrect urban myth about synthetic oil that there is.

Another misconception is that if the oil can does not say "energy conserving" that it thereby does not contain Moly and is good for motorcycles.  Many newer formulations are using Moly as a standard additive.  I'm surprised that a "bargain" priced storebrand oil would, but you never know.  Even Delo and Mobil One (except the MC and Delvac One) have begun using Moly.

Soon we may no longer need to have this discussion since all but "Motorcycle" oils seem to be heading toward the use of Moly in their additive packages.  When that happens, who will I have to insult?  Actually there will always be the guy who uses what the FAQ says.

[bwaller]

Interesting reading guys.

 I only have one comment that I can share. I deglazed the cylinders and changed rings in my 750 a few years ago and decided at the same time to switch to synthetic oil. The rings wouldn't seat period and as a result I concluded it was because the oil was "too good". Deglazed again tried a break-in trick I heard about, and went back to Castrol 10W-40 and to this day doesn't use a drop of oil.

I've used a synthetic blend in my wifes 400 for years without any issues. Last spring didn't have the Motul in stock so fiqured I'd switch back to Castrol in this engine too (use the same oil in all the bikes), and the o-ring in the 400's head gasket started to weep. Coincidence??

In light of this oil related info I will make the switch again to a synthetic, except in a newly rebuilt engine of course!!!    

[TwoTired]

Why doesn't Honda think Moly is bad for motorcycles?

[ic455]

Why doesn't Honda think Moly is bad for motorcycles?

Now, that's a good question!

[Jv550]

At the risk of prolonging another oil thread, does anyone use Castrol 4T? I've been running GTX and thought about switching to their special motorcycle formula, but I can't for the life of me find any clue as to what's different about it. It doesn't even say whether it's synthetic or what. It costs a buck more a quart...

[Bob Wessner]

It costs a buck more a quart...

Could that be the difference?

[Master Ted]

Why doesn't Honda think Moly is bad for motorcycles?

I doubt very seriously Honda is thinking about our old crates in this age of liquid cooled motors. I'm not expecting a technical bulletin on my 35 year old rig - are you?

[jbailey]

I believe the gold bottle is for the goldwing which does not have a wet clutch.  They still make the old formula GN4 with NO moly.  Check with your local Honda dealer to be sure.

[ic455]

Changed oil and filter yesterday, filled with Rotella T 15-40.  Clutch slippage is gone, and actually seems to run better, too.  Found that a gallon of Rotella is just under 9 bucks at Wal-Mart. Another thumbs up for Rotella!