Author Topic: Hanging idle head scratcher.  (Read 4319 times)

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Offline Jore

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Hanging idle head scratcher.
« on: September 12, 2018, 02:13:20 PM »
Hello, I've been having this issue for some time now, and tried to fix it in several ways, after no avail I'm now seeking help. First off my bike a is 75 400 that I've opened up to 466 with the cruizinimage kit from ebay. I'm running carb rebuild kit from 4into1 since when I got the bike th eoriginal brass was missing or damaged. I have an electronic ignition from tytronics. I have the original  header, but the muffler/tail pipe isn't stock, also I'm running the stock airbox, the rubber intake pipes are failrly new (about 3 years old) and still soft and pliable, the origns from the pipes to the head are new. I originally had hardware store hose clamps on the intake, changed them to honda still clamps I got from several junked mopeds, and currently I'm running hose clamp kit from vitalmotorsports. The carbs have been cleaned and reset accordingly to the tutorials I've found here and the specs from the service manual, I can get them in and out in about 20 minutes now since I've done it so many times. The bike didn't come with a push cable for the throttle and currently it still doesn't. The carb floats are set to 22 mm.

The bike starts up, has no gassy smell from the exhaust an idles fine when cold, after a couple of minutes she starts to die so who have to open the throtlle a wee bit I usually do it from the screw in the carb rack. If you rev it and let the throttle go it stays revving at around 3K and then goes down. The carbs have been vacuum synched, and I currently have the gauges hooked up to the bike, they all pull the same vacuum. I also read in this forum that the tytronics' trigger shaft is a bit on the long side and can cause binding in the advancer mechanism due to thermal expansion, just this morning I took out about .5 mm from the shaft in the lathe to see if this would cause any change, I also cleaned and regreased my advancer which was pretty clean to begin with. I've sprayed carb cleaner all around the intake and have no leaks, so I have no idea on what more to do to the bike now.
1975 CB400F owner
-Having a vintage motorcycle is like having a moody girlfriend.

My 466 build: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,146494.0.html

Offline Scott S

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Re: Hanging idle head scratcher.
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2018, 03:59:24 PM »
 Check the length of the stock pilot jet compared to the aftermarket jet. Pics would help.
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Offline BRG-BIRD

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Re: Hanging idle head scratcher.
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2018, 06:28:27 PM »
Have you replaced the o-rings between the intake and engine?
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Offline Jore

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Re: Hanging idle head scratcher.
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2018, 08:10:48 PM »
Have you replaced the o-rings between the intake and engine?

Yes I changed those a month ago, they're viton from an industrial supplier, the vital motorsport kit came with a set of o-rings maybe I should them swap them out.
1975 CB400F owner
-Having a vintage motorcycle is like having a moody girlfriend.

My 466 build: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,146494.0.html

Offline Jore

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Re: Hanging idle head scratcher.
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2018, 09:02:04 AM »
Would those o-rings cause the hanging idle? The screws for the ports have really tiny copper washers on them for sealing.
1975 CB400F owner
-Having a vintage motorcycle is like having a moody girlfriend.

My 466 build: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,146494.0.html

Offline BomberMann650

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Re: Hanging idle head scratcher.
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2018, 01:41:35 PM »
Did tinkering with the advancer help?

Offline flybox1

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Re: Hanging idle head scratcher.
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2018, 01:58:24 PM »
if youve removed the exhaust, did you replace the copper crush washers, and is it tight enough to the head?

after an idle on NEW spark plugs, what color are the insulators?
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
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"This is my CB. There are many like it, but this one is mine…"

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Re: Hanging idle head scratcher.
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2018, 04:21:24 PM »
IMO it's sucking air somewhere. Pass an unlit propane torch over all joints while running.

Offline Jore

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Re: Hanging idle head scratcher.
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2018, 09:58:00 PM »
if youve removed the exhaust, did you replace the copper crush washers, and is it tight enough to the head?

after an idle on NEW spark plugs, what color are the insulators?

The washers inside the exhauste ports are new, I haven't had much time to mess around with the bike, but today I noticed that exhaust collar nut where fairly loose, now that I remember,  planed on wrapping the exhaust and left them loose on purpose, could that be one of the causes for a rich idle?? Also the muffler is pretty much just a glass pack, I added a washer welded to a a screw on the opening to act somewhat as a baffle.
1975 CB400F owner
-Having a vintage motorcycle is like having a moody girlfriend.

My 466 build: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,146494.0.html

Offline flybox1

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Re: Hanging idle head scratcher.
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2018, 07:10:17 AM »
Snug up the exhaust, and see if the hanging idle changes.  You might have left it loose enough to change back-pressure.

...worry about wrapping it later.
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
77/78 cool 2 member #3
"Knowledge without mileage equals bullsh!t" - Henry Rollins

"This is my CB. There are many like it, but this one is mine…"

Offline je750f

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Re: Hanging idle head scratcher.
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2018, 07:25:01 AM »
X2 on the air leak, brake parts cleaner will find it.

Offline Jore

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Re: Hanging idle head scratcher.
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2018, 08:34:17 PM »
Sorry for not posting any updates, I finally got time to mess around with the bike, I tightnend the exhaust as much as I could, I kick started the bike, took about 6-7 kicks without much luck, after I set the choke and the bike started on the second kick. Idle seems steady, the exhaust still smells a bit gassy to me, I had the sync gauges hooked up, after correcting for how much one gauge is out from the others, they all seem to be pulling the same amount of vacuum at idle, and the needles don't bounce around like they used to.


still haven't had a chance to take her out for a test ride.
1975 CB400F owner
-Having a vintage motorcycle is like having a moody girlfriend.

My 466 build: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,146494.0.html

Offline Scott S

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Re: Hanging idle head scratcher.
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2018, 02:53:59 AM »
 You can synch them better than that, or you should be able to, at least. 1 and 2 are close. I'd tweak 3 and 4, for sure; especially #4.
'71 CB500 K0
'17 Triumph Street Scrambler
'81 Yamaha XS650

Offline Jore

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Re: Hanging idle head scratcher.
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2018, 09:21:18 AM »
The gauges are off from one another, this is them hooked up to a common vacuum source from my car


I'll try and tweak the sync again and report back
1975 CB400F owner
-Having a vintage motorcycle is like having a moody girlfriend.

My 466 build: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,146494.0.html

Offline Jore

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Re: Hanging idle head scratcher.
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2018, 09:38:54 AM »
I took the third one from left to right as a base point and marked the vacuum difference from the other 3 on the faces of each one, should I take them apart and see if there's a way to calibrate them manually?
1975 CB400F owner
-Having a vintage motorcycle is like having a moody girlfriend.

My 466 build: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,146494.0.html

Offline Deltarider

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Re: Hanging idle head scratcher.
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2018, 10:10:43 AM »
The gauges are off from one another, this is them hooked up to a common vacuum source from my car


I'll try and tweak the sync again and report back
Perfectly calibrated gauges will show differences nonetheless when connected simultaneously to one and the same manifold of a running engine! Only a stable, non pulsating vacuum pump will do!
« Last Edit: September 24, 2018, 10:12:50 AM by Deltarider »
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Offline Jore

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Re: Hanging idle head scratcher.
« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2018, 10:30:36 AM »
No vacuum pump available, but I sucked on the tube and got this reading:



knowing the offset should be enough to get a good sync?
1975 CB400F owner
-Having a vintage motorcycle is like having a moody girlfriend.

My 466 build: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,146494.0.html

Offline flybox1

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Re: Hanging idle head scratcher.
« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2018, 10:48:51 AM »
No calibration screws on them?  Seriously?
what about on the outside or the back of the gauge?
sorry...it would drive me nutz trying to calculate each time....
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
77/78 cool 2 member #3
"Knowledge without mileage equals bullsh!t" - Henry Rollins

"This is my CB. There are many like it, but this one is mine…"

Offline Jore

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Re: Hanging idle head scratcher.
« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2018, 11:28:07 AM »
I took one gauge apart and there's no way of calibrating it  :-\
1975 CB400F owner
-Having a vintage motorcycle is like having a moody girlfriend.

My 466 build: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,146494.0.html

Offline Jore

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Re: Hanging idle head scratcher.
« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2018, 07:32:38 PM »
I started the bike again, so far I've got it running constantly and it sounds mostly smooth, also before tightening the exhaust the plugs would have been carbon fouled by this point and the bike would be virtually impossible to kick start, now it doesn't happen. I noticed that when i open the throttle and let it go the vacuum goes way down and really fast on the 2 right carbs  going down to almost 50 cmHg, the other 2 go down slower and go around 35-40 cmHg. I'm guessing I still need to tweak the sync on the carbs.
1975 CB400F owner
-Having a vintage motorcycle is like having a moody girlfriend.

My 466 build: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,146494.0.html

Offline Deltarider

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Re: Hanging idle head scratcher.
« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2018, 11:17:43 PM »
I started the bike again, so far I've got it running constantly and it sounds mostly smooth, also before tightening the exhaust the plugs would have been carbon fouled by this point and the bike would be virtually impossible to kick start, now it doesn't happen. I noticed that when i open the throttle and let it go the vacuum goes way down and really fast on the 2 right carbs  going down to almost 50 cmHg, the other 2 go down slower and go around 35-40 cmHg. I'm guessing I still need to tweak the sync on the carbs.
Could also be the dampening of the dials. Make sure they move the same range when steady at idle.
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Offline je750f

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Re: Hanging idle head scratcher.
« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2018, 01:11:43 PM »
Theres a brass knob on each one to calibrate them right? Or is that to slow down the pulsing.

Offline flybox1

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Re: Hanging idle head scratcher.
« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2018, 01:45:38 PM »
The brass knob chokes the vacuum to quiet the bounce. 
Bummer the gauges done have calibration adjustments.
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
77/78 cool 2 member #3
"Knowledge without mileage equals bullsh!t" - Henry Rollins

"This is my CB. There are many like it, but this one is mine…"

Offline Jore

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Re: Hanging idle head scratcher.
« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2018, 06:25:34 PM »
I had some time to mess around with the bike, and just for the sake of it, I swapped the hoses from the gauges around, left bank to the right and so on, this time I didn't get the same violent movement of the gauges from the right side cylinders, actually they are all mostly pulling the same vacuum and don't bounce around, the outer right is pulling about 5 cmHg less than the other 3 accoriding to the gauges, I haven't touched a thing on the bike!

This is the right bank, but I have them hooked on the left gauges


This is the  left bank hooed on the  right side gauges


took a short video of it also

I didn't touch the brass knobs either
1975 CB400F owner
-Having a vintage motorcycle is like having a moody girlfriend.

My 466 build: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,146494.0.html

Offline Jore

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Re: Hanging idle head scratcher.
« Reply #24 on: September 29, 2018, 01:37:22 PM »
One more question, should the set screw that's where the idle screw make contact be further out than what I have it? The way it is I can only get the bike to idle with the screw about half way in

1975 CB400F owner
-Having a vintage motorcycle is like having a moody girlfriend.

My 466 build: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,146494.0.html