Author Topic: Having trouble with my '75 CB400F - Battery constantly discharging  (Read 10015 times)

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Online scottly

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Re: Having trouble with my '75 CB400F - Battery constantly discharging
« Reply #25 on: September 27, 2018, 08:59:58 AM »
Mike Nixon's excellent web site has the most logical step by step method I have seen or used, link here:
https://www.motorcycleproject.com/text/SOHCcharging.html

-Bill
Mike's ammeter test has the meter inserted in place of the main fuse, so it will only show the current draw of the system, not the charging current. To measure charging current, the meter must be inserted between the rectifier and battery, and even then will vary depending on the state of charge of the battery; as the battery reaches a full charge, the current will decrease. Voltage readings are good enough, if properly interpreted. ;)
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Offline spurlock

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Re: Having trouble with my '75 CB400F - Battery constantly discharging
« Reply #26 on: September 27, 2018, 10:24:13 AM »
Mike's ammeter test has the meter inserted in place of the main fuse, so it will only show the current draw of the system, not the charging current. To measure charging current, the meter must be inserted between the rectifier and battery, and even then will vary depending on the state of charge of the battery; as the battery reaches a full charge, the current will decrease. Voltage readings are good enough, if properly interpreted. ;)

Correct, the ammeter needs to be in series with a battery terminal as I stated. Just be sure not to use the electric starter and fry the ammeter!

And of course all tests should only be done with a fully charged battery. Whatever the methodology used it should follow a logical sequence to give a pass/fail to each system component.

-Bill
1975 Honda CB125S, 1989 Honda NX250, 1989 Honda GB500, 1989 Honda CB-1 400F, 1997 Honda Dream 50

Offline johans

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Re: Having trouble with my '75 CB400F - Battery constantly discharging
« Reply #27 on: September 27, 2018, 11:06:06 AM »
I have a 8 cell anti grav on a 750 78k and a 12 cell and a 750 76f with digital vmeters on both bikes with no problems. You need a dedicated charger for those batteries. Ricks R/R on both bikes  ( 10-100 )  i recently purchased the ( 14-100 ) for the 76 just for comparison. I'll post results differences soon.   I agree , check ( go over ) all grounds and connections. Stator check and diode check .Highly recommend the vmeter on the bike so you can constantly monitor the voltage.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2018, 11:11:05 AM by johans »
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1978 CB750F
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1979 BMW R65
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Offline Deltarider

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Re: Having trouble with my '75 CB400F - Battery constantly discharging
« Reply #28 on: September 27, 2018, 12:50:45 PM »
Don’t cheap out on the lead acid battery.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
My last cheap lead acid battery lasted 8 years...
My stock charging and battery system has proved bulletproof, reliable, more than adequate and I never for a moment felt the need to replace any of the components. I don't quite understand why some folks start with replacing, neither do I understand why some find it necessary to warn against the upgrade of a decent H4 headlamp which can mean a big improvement in safe riding, particularly at night. Even a CB350F/400F can handle an H4 no prob (as riders here and in the UK prove every day). Just a moment ago I read what Mike Nixon wrote on the subject. I thank Spurlock for that link, btw. It is well written and confirms what I so often stated here. https://www.motorcycleproject.com/text/defense_chging.html
« Last Edit: September 28, 2018, 04:48:31 AM by Deltarider »
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Online scottly

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Re: Having trouble with my '75 CB400F - Battery constantly discharging
« Reply #29 on: September 27, 2018, 06:24:31 PM »
This thread is getting off topic, but since there have been two references to a certain self proclaimed expert, I have to post this  ::):
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,121641.0.html
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Offline jakec

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Re: Having trouble with my '75 CB400F - Battery constantly discharging
« Reply #30 on: October 01, 2018, 04:40:08 PM »
Mkngt is / has been out of town for a bit but I've got a new battery on the charger for him at the moment. A regular old lead acid battery, when I get home from work it'll have been on the trickle charger for about 24 hours. If it tests 12.6 I will put it in the bike. I began to read the troubleshooting link posted above. I will try putting my meter on the main fuse contacts, although I am not sure if I have a multimeter or just a volt meter. I will see when I get home.

The instructions say that if the amp reading is low (I guess we predict it will be) you're instructed to test the reg / rect individually. But FIRST he says to "make sure the field coil isn't shorted." Up until that point in the article I didn't see that part mentioned, can someone explain what he means?

Mkngt does have a modern reg / rect combo unit that can be installed if one of these parts isn't working. However due to its larger size it doesn't fit with a normal sized battery on the normal mounting area on the frame. You can see in a photo that he posted earlier that the flange there is nearly broken as it is.
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Offline oldfart

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Re: Having trouble with my '75 CB400F - Battery constantly discharging
« Reply #31 on: October 01, 2018, 04:50:42 PM »
This thread is getting off topic, but since there have been two references to a certain self proclaimed expert, I have to post this  ::):
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,121641.0.html

"Self-proclaimed expert", huh?  That's rich.  Unlike others, I don't have to proclaim, and anyone even slightly familiar with my work knows it.  For what it's worth, my resume....

https://www.motorcycleproject.com/about/professional/resume_interactive.html
Mike Nixon
Why is there never enough time to do it right, but always enough time to do it over?

www.motorcycleproject.com

Offline spurlock

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Re: Having trouble with my '75 CB400F - Battery constantly discharging
« Reply #32 on: October 01, 2018, 05:44:15 PM »
Mkngt is / has been out of town for a bit but I've got a new battery on the charger for him at the moment. A regular old lead acid battery, when I get home from work it'll have been on the trickle charger for about 24 hours. If it tests 12.6 I will put it in the bike. I began to read the troubleshooting link posted above. I will try putting my meter on the main fuse contacts, although I am not sure if I have a multimeter or just a volt meter. I will see when I get home.

As stated above, on the 400F the ammeter needs to go in series with one of the battery terminals, not the main fuse contacts. It HAS to be an ammeter for this test, not a voltmeter since you are measuring amps, current flowing into or out of the battery.

The instructions say that if the amp reading is low (I guess we predict it will be) you're instructed to test the reg / rect individually. But FIRST he says to "make sure the field coil isn't shorted." Up until that point in the article I didn't see that part mentioned, can someone explain what he means?

The field coil is mentioned in the  3rd and 4th paragraphs of the article. It's part of the alternator, part #6 here: https://www.partzilla.com/catalog/honda/motorcycle/1976/cb400f-a-super-sport-400-four/alternator

Testing the field coil is covered in paragraph 7.

Hope this helps,

-Bill
1975 Honda CB125S, 1989 Honda NX250, 1989 Honda GB500, 1989 Honda CB-1 400F, 1997 Honda Dream 50

Online scottly

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Re: Having trouble with my '75 CB400F - Battery constantly discharging
« Reply #33 on: October 01, 2018, 07:59:00 PM »
This thread is getting off topic, but since there have been two references to a certain self proclaimed expert, I have to post this  ::):
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,121641.0.html

"Self-proclaimed expert", huh?  That's rich.  Unlike others, I don't have to proclaim, and anyone even slightly familiar with my work knows it.  For what it's worth, my resume....

https://www.motorcycleproject.com/about/professional/resume_interactive.html
Sorry Mike, but electrical is not your strong suit, as evidenced in the thread I linked. Best you stick to what you do best; carburetors. ;)
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Offline jakec

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Re: Having trouble with my '75 CB400F - Battery constantly discharging
« Reply #34 on: October 01, 2018, 08:22:20 PM »
This is the multimeter that I have. It says it does AC, DC voltage, and Ohms. Do we need a differenct tool or is one of the setting on this meter going to work to let me measure amps?

https://www.gardnerbender.com/en/p/GDT-311/Gardner-Bender-GDT-311-Digital#
1970 CB750 K0
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Offline jakec

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Re: Having trouble with my '75 CB400F - Battery constantly discharging
« Reply #35 on: October 01, 2018, 09:02:50 PM »
I messed with all of the available settings on the multimeter and none of the non-voltage settings (Ohms) gave a " 1 " on the screen with no inputs so I don't think that was going to work for amps.. but I obviously have no idea what I'm doing. I tried to do some testing with what I have on me tonight.

I hooked the battery up, reading 12.6v on the bike, key off. I started it up and the battery hovers at 12.25v at idle (1200 rpm). It hovered there without moving for a while. I revved the bike up and the battery went up with it. It kept going up, all the way to 15v and I backed off because I know it's supposed to cut off at 14.5v.
1970 CB750 K0
1977 CB750 Chop
1997 XR650L

Online scottly

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Re: Having trouble with my '75 CB400F - Battery constantly discharging
« Reply #36 on: October 01, 2018, 09:12:27 PM »
Your meter doesn't have an ammeter setting, and it's not needed to trouble-shoot the charging system.
Measure the voltage at the black regulator terminal as follows:
Connect one meter lead to the positive battery terminal, and the other meter lead to the black regulator terminal, and turn the key on, without starting the motor; this will measure the voltage drop through the wiring harness, fuse box, and ignition switch. This should be less than 1 volt.
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Offline jakec

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Re: Having trouble with my '75 CB400F - Battery constantly discharging
« Reply #37 on: October 01, 2018, 10:03:36 PM »
I tried what you described above, key off it showed 12.6v. Key on it showed 1.5v
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Online scottly

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Re: Having trouble with my '75 CB400F - Battery constantly discharging
« Reply #38 on: October 01, 2018, 10:10:36 PM »
1.5 V is too much voltage drop; check/clean the red wire connections at the fuse box, including the clips on the main fuse holder, and the connections of the red wire and the black wire at the ignition switch.
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Offline jakec

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Re: Having trouble with my '75 CB400F - Battery constantly discharging
« Reply #39 on: October 01, 2018, 10:31:55 PM »
Just to clarify it didn't drop 1.5v, it showed 1.5 volts. So it dropped 11.1v? I think?
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Offline jakec

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Re: Having trouble with my '75 CB400F - Battery constantly discharging
« Reply #40 on: October 02, 2018, 08:45:40 AM »
I will clean the points mentioned tonight. When you say the red wire at the ignition switch, are you talking about the contact that would be in the 6-pin connector for the ignition? After I do this and check again, what number am I hoping for it to show, just anything less than 1?
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Offline jakec

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Re: Having trouble with my '75 CB400F - Battery constantly discharging
« Reply #41 on: October 02, 2018, 11:17:24 AM »
After I do this and check again, what number am I hoping for it to show, just anything less than 1?
As close to 0.00 as you can get it. It will be greater than that, but 1.5 is much too high.

Here's the explanation on that:
Your regulator BLACK wire reads the battery voltage through the harness. If the battery has an actual voltage of 12.6v at the terminals, but the harness has a 1.5v lower reading, then the Regulator sends +1.5v of more voltage to the battery than it actually needs/wants because it is reading only 11.1v not 12.6v. This creates an overcharging of the battery. Much like you reading +15v momentarily as you revved the engine.

Within 0.5v is about as good as you'll get it with a stock harness, stock connectors, etc. There's some amount of resistance added each time there is a connection made, a splice, a switch inline. That all adds up.

Thanks, totally makes sense now! I have actually checked most of the connections at one time or another in the past, since we have replaced his bars (came with '77 bars and we swapped for '75) and right hand switch pod. I will start with the connections mentioned before by scottly and then check the others in the headlight bucket and under the tank. Fortunately the wiring is pretty much all stock with no tape or splices.
1970 CB750 K0
1977 CB750 Chop
1997 XR650L

Online scottly

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Re: Having trouble with my '75 CB400F - Battery constantly discharging
« Reply #42 on: October 02, 2018, 06:31:12 PM »
The wiring in the headlight bucket and under the tank aren't involved with the charging system. The most common cause of the voltage drop is the fuse box, and the clips that hold the main fuse:start there. With one meter lead on the positive battery terminal, check the drop at each end of the main fuse with the other meter lead.
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Having trouble with my '75 CB400F - Battery constantly discharging
« Reply #43 on: October 03, 2018, 08:41:49 AM »
Besides the fuse box, I've also found the main contacts inside the key switch to degrade and drop large voltages.

The voltmeter measures difference of potential between the meter test leads.  Putting a probe on either side of a suspected component will tell you exactly how much loss that component contributes to Vdrop in that power pathway.

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Offline Bodi

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Re: Having trouble with my '75 CB400F - Battery constantly discharging
« Reply #44 on: October 03, 2018, 09:54:03 AM »
"The wiring in the headlight bucket and under the tank aren't involved with the charging system"
Well... not directly. The last problem described was overcharging and a 1.5V drop to the regulator was measured: this is a bit too much and would explain overcharging.
This voltage drop is directly proportional to current through the harness, fuses, and keyswitch up to the point the regulator wire is connected regardless whether it's a small drop from a pristine harness (including connections, fuseholder and keyswitch) or a higher drop from a degraded harness. So the rest of the system - the entire harness and the various loads - are involved with the charging system... beyond the obvious involvement of drawing power from it.
This makes it imperative that all normal loads are on when measuring voltage drop. Headlight, tail light, ignition, and the field coil. It's best done with the engine running to have a realistic ignition coil load. There will be a zero volt drop with no load current, that tells you nothing.
The fuseholders are often causing voltage drop. If any of the fuses are hot you have a problem, they should get slightly warm at normal load current but definitely not hot to the touch. The keyswitch is another trouble spot, the contacts get corroded and the springs that hold the contacts together get weak. Some contact cleaner and a few dozen cycles of the switch is all you can do without taking it apart: it's a but tricky to get apart and back together plus you have a high risk of breaking the bits that hold it together as the plastic will be quite brittle after 43 years. Aftermarket switches are available - you should add a main power relay if you use one, they tend to fail if asked to carry the full system load.
The rectifier and engine connectors should be cleaned well and have their female ends tightened a bit with pliers.
The bullet connections for the alternator coils underneath the sprocket cover are very prone to corrosion and overheating - definitely check them and resolve any problems. Corrosion there can only reduce output - they're not a factor in overcharging but they should be checked at least annually.

Offline jakec

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Re: Having trouble with my '75 CB400F - Battery constantly discharging
« Reply #45 on: October 03, 2018, 10:58:56 AM »
I really appreciate that message Bodi it really helps me wrap my head around this.

The ONLY reason I'm doing this work on his bike while he's out of town is because we had scheduled a ride for this saturday.. I'm thinking when (if) we get to the destination he will be buying ALL the beers.
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1977 CB750 Chop
1997 XR650L

Offline jakec

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Re: Having trouble with my '75 CB400F - Battery constantly discharging
« Reply #46 on: October 04, 2018, 07:44:26 PM »
I lubricated the key switch, cleaned all fuse contacts, and cleaned the regulator contacts. Putting the lead on the black lead for the regulator (bike not running) gave me a reading of 1.06v
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1977 CB750 Chop
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Online scottly

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Re: Having trouble with my '75 CB400F - Battery constantly discharging
« Reply #47 on: October 04, 2018, 07:52:40 PM »
1.06V isn't great, but it's better than 1.5V. ;D What is the max voltage now, with the engine running?
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Offline jakec

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Re: Having trouble with my '75 CB400F - Battery constantly discharging
« Reply #48 on: October 04, 2018, 07:59:30 PM »
I have it running now, when I tried it and got the 1.06 I had unplugged the black lead and was putting the bolt reader on that. Now that's it's running I can't  unplug that lead from the regulator, right?

When I put the meter to the contact point on the regulator with the bike running I get 1.30.

I just revved it up to about 6k and got to about 14.5 volts but backed out because it was too loud haha
1970 CB750 K0
1977 CB750 Chop
1997 XR650L

Offline jakec

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Re: Having trouble with my '75 CB400F - Battery constantly discharging
« Reply #49 on: October 04, 2018, 08:06:28 PM »
I should also say that I did a quick check under the tank and all of the connections are clean like I expected since we just changed the handlebars.

I just looked at some more stuff and it reads 0.99 now (bike off, black lead disconnected from regulator).

I also tested the main fuse and I would say it's hot. The meter shows 0.8 across it.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2018, 08:19:24 PM by jakec »
1970 CB750 K0
1977 CB750 Chop
1997 XR650L