Topic: Aftermarket frame - group purchase

[754]

Cal  there are ways to deal with the front hanger strength issue.
 For one, wall thickness could be increased on those 2 tubes.
 And yes mount milled from  solid and plug welded , is a good idea. But drill out the middle.

I have seen frame pieces where the axle plate had portions that went into the frame tube  for several inches.
 But not a solid tube  more like 2 spears that tapered off. 
 This on a brazed frame made a HUNDRED years ago..
 So they been on this problem from before any if us were born..

 And they had no FEA then..

[MessnerMoto]

Captain, you never fail to impress!

Mirko, ok, must have missed thats it's a single copy.

Nevertheless, where are you going to put a decent volume of fuel with that spine taking up all the place?

My current tank has more room under the tank than needed for this design... Holds 17L-19L. If I make it tight around back bone of this design it will go to 22L

[turboguzzi]

as per the original title of this thread, im still curious as how folks deal with potentially making a kit frame road legal
here in italy, ASFAIK, you have to be a certified manufacturer of complete road worthy bikes with the ministry of transportation and even then, engine wise you'd be relying on the homologation of the engine unit of the donor bike in terms of emotions, etc. That's what Bimota did all along their lifetime...
how is it around your area?

[turboguzzi]

Ok, interesting.... round here many register italian bikes in germany, get TUV test and then register again in italy, for some reason germans seem more lax but quite a costly procedure.
My neighbour took the donor neck shortcut with a crazy guzzi he built.

[gschuld]

https://www.rbracing-rsr.com/aboutrb.htm

I’ll just throw this in for food for thought.

Very Elgi like, parts count petty low.

George

[754]

That last pic.  BULTACO clip ons  like my Matador..

I just thought up another alternative  for the  engine front bolt hanger mount..
 Weldless  of course..
 Thread the tubing end like a tie rod and slit. Make the hanger with threads(like a tie rod end), then install and clamp externally.,

[scottly]

Ok, interesting.... round here many register italian bikes in germany, get TUV test and then register again in italy, for some reason germans seem more lax but quite a costly procedure.
My neighbour took the donor neck shortcut with a crazy guzzi he built.

Yes, interesting. Seeley had to make some mods to get his bikes accepted in Germany? When I bought my Seeley, there was a delay of 2-3 months before I received the California title, which listed it as a 1971 CB750, but with the Seeley frame VIN. I don't know if the delay was caused by a paperwork issue, or the incompetence of the seller/PO, who had proven himself mechanically incompetent several times already.    

[eli]

Ok, interesting.... round here many register italian bikes in germany, get TUV test and then register again in italy, for some reason germans seem more lax but quite a costly procedure.
My neighbour took the donor neck shortcut with a crazy guzzi he built.

Yes, interesting. Seeley had to make some mods to get his bikes accepted in Germany? When I bought my Seeley, there was a delay of 2-3 months before I received the California title, which listed it as a 1971 CB750, but with the Seeley frame VIN. I don't know if the delay was caused by a paperwork issue, or the incompetence of the seller/PO, who had proven himself mechanically incompetent several times already.

Well, I wouldn't exactly call TÜV lax!
The mods to the seeley frame for the german authorities were simple: A support for a steering lock (don't know the technical term, in german it's "Lenkradschloss"). With this little mod, the SH GER-series of frame numbers was made

[simon#42]

In England it's called a lock stop

[eli]

Thanks.
Simon, would you consider something like member mec did? An Egli-copy, but different steering angle and swingarm length? With that design, it would be easy to lower the engine or put it a few cm more in front to be more flexible with the position of the swingarm rotation point. Would still be a period style frame with twin shocks...
As many said, that one is easy and affordable to make. Maybe I try that design first on my jig...

[simon#42]

spine frames can work , this is a 1981 250 waddon  i made six of these a few years ago . it handled very well , my local track had a race for pre 1989 1300cc bikes .the track is fast and does favour the big bikes .the grid is mostly rc30´s and gsx1100r based race bikes with about 20 smaller bikes making up the grid . after i won the championship they split the classes due to complaints from the big bike riders , as i said it handled very well .

[eli]

That looks like one from Tony Foale....

[simon#42]

it was designed by an ex foal employee ,  it worked much better than tonys bikes though . was second at daytona and at a couple of grand prix .

[bwaller]

Tidy little racebike Simon, melike!

Not sure how you find all these pieces George but I enjoyed that one. Lang was at the top of his game then. Mike Rieck has a Lang connection too.

[MessnerMoto]

Probably that backbone design is close to best weight-stiffness ratio you can achieve and is probably the simplest to make regarding fabrication and cost. Nice smart design

....regarding German TUV from what I hear it is around 300eu? Maybe I have wrong information. Also I heard that there it is not that difficult to pass and it takes one day to do it?

...for registration... lets say this... if you come with old bike to regular technical inspection... who would now how the bike looked 40 years ago. At least where I live it works....

[eli]

....regarding German TUV from what I hear it is around 300eu? Maybe I have wrong information. Also I heard that there it is not that difficult to pass and it takes one day to do it?

If the bike/frame was street legal once, it is not more then 100€ and 2 hours or so. If you built the frame yourself (they take it as that even if you only changed something on the original frame between head and swingarm), it's almost impossible. They want a couple of similar made frames to crash them to find out if your creation is safe. But even if you built them their 5 frames only to get 4 of them crashed, it would still be a new vehicle, so the engine you're using would have to pass newest norms etc.
Impossible 

[MessnerMoto]

....regarding German TUV from what I hear it is around 300eu? Maybe I have wrong information. Also I heard that there it is not that difficult to pass and it takes one day to do it?

If the bike/frame was street legal once, it is not more then 100€ and 2 hours or so. If you built the frame yourself (they take it as that even if you only changed something on the original frame between head and swingarm), it's almost impossible. They want a couple of similar made frames to crash them to find out if your creation is safe. But even if you built them their 5 frames only to get 4 of them crashed, it would still be a new vehicle, so the engine you're using would have to pass newest norms etc.
Impossible 

Are you sure in that. Because like Yoss wrote there is a lot of people reexporting bikes to Germany just to pass TUV because it is easier... bikes with have modifications. I see also there is a lot of customizers in Germany(probably the most in EU), not just for bikes but also for cars, and they are doing some pretty heavy modifications to frames. Also I know a guy who has custom shop for Harleys in Germany and he is doing some crazy modifications including frames. He said to me it cost him around 300eu to pass all the things... And he is doing customization beyond recognizing original bike.

[eli]

....regarding German TUV from what I hear it is around 300eu? Maybe I have wrong information. Also I heard that there it is not that difficult to pass and it takes one day to do it?

If the bike/frame was street legal once, it is not more then 100€ and 2 hours or so. If you built the frame yourself (they take it as that even if you only changed something on the original frame between head and swingarm), it's almost impossible. They want a couple of similar made frames to crash them to find out if your creation is safe. But even if you built them their 5 frames only to get 4 of them crashed, it would still be a new vehicle, so the engine you're using would have to pass newest norms etc.
Impossible 

Are you sure in that. Because like Yoss wrote there is a lot of people reexporting bikes to Germany just to pass TUV because it is easier... bikes with have modifications. I see also there is a lot of customizers in Germany(probably the most in EU), not just for bikes but also for cars, and they are doing some pretty heavy modifications to frames. Also I know a guy who has custom shop for Harleys in Germany and he is doing some crazy modifications including frames. He said to me it cost him around 300eu to pass all the things... And he is doing customization beyond recognizing original bike.

Can I have the contact to that Harley guy? Yes, you can modify almost everything on your bike and get TÜV - but it still has to be the original main/front frame with it's frame number, which was once registered before or has an EU-certificate. You can change the rear part under the seat quite freely, if it's done correctly. A typical example is the hardtail mod on Harleys. I know bikes where there were small modifications done to fit another engine which means modifying the front part of the frame. Those welds on the main frame have to be done by a certified welder with certain papers. Trickier is the change from twin-shocks to cantilever. I doubt I would find an engineer nowadays who legalizes such a change. Maybe there is a TÜV-engineer who "has a blind eye" for certain mods on the main frame, I wouldn't deny that. If you reeeaaally know him well....
But if I come to visit them with my own recreation of an egli-type frame and my genuine ELI-001 framenumber  , I have to pass all those tests on strength, welding and so on (maybe a proper computer analysis of the frame strength done by some certified engineer will do)the costs will rise to thousands, maybe ten-thousands...and the bike will be a new bike with all the safety and ecological requirements of today. There is no way to get a CB750SOHC engine in a newly built frame as far as I know. But I would love to get in contact with someone with the right connections

[754]

The procedure to sell frames is very tough.
 Getting a frame certified for personal use is much easier I imagine.

In the early 90,s a  Harley frame builder from here  sought and got TUV approval for Germany. AS FAR as I know the first to do so in Germany, made it easy to sell frames and lots of them.. as I recall it involved testing a few frames.
I at one point was over there checking out the distributor, it was HAAS in Stockstadt..

I suspect if you find an engineer to Sign off on a personal frame, it would be easier with the right people..

[Sam Green Racing]

How about this one guys. Made in the UK for Honda France with the permission of Honda themselves.
5 frames were made for Honda France and they went on to a few World Endurance Championship wins.

[MessnerMoto]

probably if you now right people that does the job

[Sam Green Racing]

They were made by Spondon but they are no longer in business but there is a former employee that makes Spondon frames but I don't think he worked for them when these frames were made in the early 70s.
5 frames were made for Honda France, I found out where #1 and #2 are. Two got crashed beyond repair and we're still looking for the other one.
2 other frames were made #6 and #7 for the then reigning World Endurance Champion Peter Darvill.
His team in the IOM still have one and the other one was sold to a friend of mine in Texas.
Apart from around the head stock and the swingarm, they look much like a stock frame but they sure did the business in the day.

[eli]

I found out where #1 and #2 are.

You also found out where the shoes and the cup of tea are  I love this storage room: an absolutely precious bike and random stuff, alltogether...

In the early 90,s a  Harley frame builder from here  sought and got TUV approval for Germany.

Frank, you said it: in the early 90s. Things changed in Germany, especially since 2007 they tightend the rules.

[754]

Actually nobody in Germany could sell a custom Harley frame in Germany, they were the first to do so..

[Sam Green Racing]

I found out where #1 and #2 are.

You also found out where the shoes and the cup of tea are  I love this storage room: an absolutely precious bike and random stuff, alltogether...

eli, I'm sorry but your quote went right over my head.