Author Topic: Aftermarket frame - group purchase  (Read 26955 times)

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Offline livefast_dieold

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Aftermarket frame - group purchase
« on: October 23, 2018, 04:02:02 am »
Hello everyone,

I've not been that active in the past few months, but I keep reading daily the sohc forum :-)

I've been talking with Mirko about the possibility of replicating an aftermarket frame for our beloved bikes, using his contacts it would be possible at a quite attractive price. We think that if we can find at least other 5 people willing to buy a frame, we can keep the cost at 2000 € per frame (swingarm included).

We still have to decide which design to follow, at the moment we are considering 3 main options:

> Egli backbone


> Seeley double cradle


> Moto Martin trellis


Personally I'm very intrigued by the Martin solution, as it has a more modern design and rear monoshock, but I'm afraid that is not allowed in most race regulations (it is allowed in Italy).

Sooooo, who could be interested on this?

Offline MessnerMoto

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Re: Aftermarket frame - group purchase
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2018, 06:25:00 am »
....Yep I have almost all the measurements from the frame and the engine in CAD.

There needs to be several people interested to offset the cost of building the frame jig.

I am here to support ;)

Offline turboguzzi

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Re: Aftermarket frame - group purchase
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2018, 07:03:42 am »
What Jig????? Can't you 3D print it? Piece of cake. c'mon....

Offline slikwilli420

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Re: Aftermarket frame - group purchase
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2018, 07:13:10 am »
Thats nearly the price of a pro frame fab shop here in the states and I won't have to deal with shipping internationally. The Egli frame is about the simplest of frames anywhere and I would think It would be far cheaper. The frame jig need not be complicated and one should be able to make a suitable jig for $300 or so. I like the idea but the economics are not very appealing.
All you gotta do is do what you gotta do.

Vintage Speed Parts Mashup: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=133638.0
Rickman CR Parts Kit Refresh: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,154837.0.html
AHRMA CB750 Racer: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,158461.0.html
AHRMA Superbike Heavyweight Racer: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,173120.0.html
'76F CB750 Patina Redemption: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,174871.0.html

Offline MessnerMoto

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Re: Aftermarket frame - group purchase
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2018, 07:13:33 am »
What Jig????? Can't you 3D print it? Piece of cake. c'mon....

;) Probably laser cut sheets of 15mm-20mm tick steel then assemble with welding. Jig needs to withstand banding of frame because heat stress in metal while welding.

Offline turboguzzi

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Re: Aftermarket frame - group purchase
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2018, 07:25:00 am »
Thick steel is for pussies. Just hold the head tube steady with your hand, check by eye it's more or less straight, two tacks, job done  ;)

 

Offline livefast_dieold

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Re: Aftermarket frame - group purchase
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2018, 07:43:37 am »
Thats nearly the price of a pro frame fab shop here in the states and I won't have to deal with shipping internationally. The Egli frame is about the simplest of frames anywhere and I would think It would be far cheaper. The frame jig need not be complicated and one should be able to make a suitable jig for $300 or so. I like the idea but the economics are not very appealing.

Well in the US there is a strong tradition of chopper frames, haven't thought of that! Anyhow here in Europe, I wasn't able to get any quotations below 5k €. The guys that took over at Egli in Switzerland are charging 8k € for a frame kit...

Offline slikwilli420

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Re: Aftermarket frame - group purchase
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2018, 07:57:00 am »
Thats nearly the price of a pro frame fab shop here in the states and I won't have to deal with shipping internationally. The Egli frame is about the simplest of frames anywhere and I would think It would be far cheaper. The frame jig need not be complicated and one should be able to make a suitable jig for $300 or so. I like the idea but the economics are not very appealing.

Well in the US there is a strong tradition of chopper frames, haven't thought of that! Anyhow here in Europe, I wasn't able to get any quotations below 5k €. The guys that took over at Egli in Switzerland are charging 8k € for a frame kit...

Im talking about places that build real race frames, not choppers. For that money you could fly over from Europe, consult with the frame builder, fly home while it was built, then fly back to take it home with you and still be ahead. The Egli fram could not be simpler so charging that kind of money is madness.
All you gotta do is do what you gotta do.

Vintage Speed Parts Mashup: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=133638.0
Rickman CR Parts Kit Refresh: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,154837.0.html
AHRMA CB750 Racer: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,158461.0.html
AHRMA Superbike Heavyweight Racer: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,173120.0.html
'76F CB750 Patina Redemption: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,174871.0.html

Offline livefast_dieold

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Re: Aftermarket frame - group purchase
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2018, 08:14:02 am »
Thats nearly the price of a pro frame fab shop here in the states and I won't have to deal with shipping internationally. The Egli frame is about the simplest of frames anywhere and I would think It would be far cheaper. The frame jig need not be complicated and one should be able to make a suitable jig for $300 or so. I like the idea but the economics are not very appealing.

Well in the US there is a strong tradition of chopper frames, haven't thought of that! Anyhow here in Europe, I wasn't able to get any quotations below 5k €. The guys that took over at Egli in Switzerland are charging 8k € for a frame kit...

Im talking about places that build real race frames, not choppers. For that money you could fly over from Europe, consult with the frame builder, fly home while it was built, then fly back to take it home with you and still be ahead. The Egli fram could not be simpler so charging that kind of money is madness.

Amazing! Can you put me in contact with them? I might ordering a Martin frame right away!

Offline calj737

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Re: Aftermarket frame - group purchase
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2018, 08:23:14 am »
;) Probably laser cut sheets of 15mm-20mm tick steel then assemble with welding. Jig needs to withstand banding of frame because heat stress in metal while welding.
I think I’d approach that differently. If you’re welding steel, the jig need not be 15-20mm thick. In fact, rigidly restricting the steel forces too much stress while cooling. As soon as you release the jig, the steel will expand and likely crack. Welding up a frame is ALL about heat control and distortion. The metal MUST move, and knowing how much it will move as you weld it, is the hard part.

Now aluminum is a bit different (Egli) if that’s what’s used. Aluminum will move a great deal in any direction against its restricted force. Then as it cools, it will shrink and that’s when the welds crack. You can’t restrain aluminum in a jig too tightly while cooling, else you will have a taco with weld cracks everywhere.

There are ample plans for quality jigs available, and even professional jigs that are easily copied with inexpensive steel. The trickiest part is to get the engine hoops bent equally and symmetrically side-to-side. Placement of the mounting lugs and brackets comes with other fixture plates, where a CNC machined fixture would be handy.

All-in, probably $500 for steel and ally for fixtures and jig. Steel tubing for a 750 frame, here in the States, 4130 x0.063 would run about $125 for raw tubes. Figure another $50 for brackets and bungs. Bending and notching and welding, $1500 per frame. So for someone here, $2,000 gets you a professionally built frame of highest quality material.

Mirko, if you have the geometry for the stock/custom frame, it’s easy to have numerous frame components CNC bent and shipped back to EU. Deal with VIN and Neck issues locally, but send unassembled parts back is super easy. And much cheaper.

Just some friendly input.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline MessnerMoto

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Re: Aftermarket frame - group purchase
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2018, 08:39:00 am »
;) Probably laser cut sheets of 15mm-20mm tick steel then assemble with welding. Jig needs to withstand banding of frame because heat stress in metal while welding.
I think I’d approach that differently. If you’re welding steel, the jig need not be 15-20mm thick. In fact, rigidly restricting the steel forces too much stress while cooling. As soon as you release the jig, the steel will expand and likely crack. Welding up a frame is ALL about heat control and distortion. The metal MUST move, and knowing how much it will move as you weld it, is the hard part.

Now aluminum is a bit different (Egli) if that’s what’s used. Aluminum will move a great deal in any direction against its restricted force. Then as it cools, it will shrink and that’s when the welds crack. You can’t restrain aluminum in a jig too tightly while cooling, else you will have a taco with weld cracks everywhere.

There are ample plans for quality jigs available, and even professional jigs that are easily copied with inexpensive steel. The trickiest part is to get the engine hoops bent equally and symmetrically side-to-side. Placement of the mounting lugs and brackets comes with other fixture plates, where a CNC machined fixture would be handy.

All-in, probably $500 for steel and ally for fixtures and jig. Steel tubing for a 750 frame, here in the States, 4130 x0.063 would run about $125 for raw tubes. Figure another $50 for brackets and bungs. Bending and notching and welding, $1500 per frame. So for someone here, $2,000 gets you a professionally built frame of highest quality material.

Mirko, if you have the geometry for the stock/custom frame, it’s easy to have numerous frame components CNC bent and shipped back to EU. Deal with VIN and Neck issues locally, but send unassembled parts back is super easy. And much cheaper.

Just some friendly input.

Just to be clear I am not making the frames and selling them. I am helping Riccardo...  he personally got crazy quotations for frame in Europe.

i will just design the jig and frame in CAD... for the fun of design not for money... And prepare the things for bending, laser cutting etc... I also know the shop where they are wiling to do the job.

if thats that cheap in US than thats should be done in US for sure... metal workers in my country are probably payed 5-10 times lower per hour than in US... so to me it sounds crazy that thats cheaper in US.... So if people know cheaper better place why not....
« Last Edit: October 23, 2018, 09:14:50 am by MessnerMoto »

Offline 754

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Re: Aftermarket frame - group purchase
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2018, 08:41:05 am »
 Any good frame jig has at least 200 bucks worth of machined parts. A tilting neck fixture is pretty tough to build  in a few hours . Don't get fooled by some cheapo eBay frame jig kit.
 Not that you can't build a frame with one, but some folks like higher precision. .. like most racers.
 Think of what any shop charges for labor, i mean someone with experience and equipment, its going to be 75 per hour and up..
 So to suggest you should expect a pro built frame for 2 K is ludicrous.
 BTW  a flattrack frame for a single cylinder  is over 2500 bucks.

The quickest  way to get talented welders fabricators, machinists to stop working on motorcycle stuff..... is to expect them to work for low pay..
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline 754

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Re: Aftermarket frame - group purchase
« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2018, 08:50:10 am »
 I assume we are all talking frames with rear suspension here,  meaning some kind of swingarm, but not counting the cost of shocks.
 I don't know how many on here have ran a shop, and paid for liability insurance  to even touch motorcycle parts,   I did it before.
 I also built thousands of pieces to be used in the manufacture of custom frames, so I have an idea what  the loose bits cost.
 So just let me say this,  to try to build racing frames at low cost and sell them to others, that is a pretty tall order.
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline 754

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Re: Aftermarket frame - group purchase
« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2018, 08:54:34 am »
Here us what one maker offers today , for around 4 K .. not sure if it includes rear section.
Bodywork, engine , wheels,  suspension, not included
 And that is pretty reasonable..
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline gschuld

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Re: Aftermarket frame - group purchase
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2018, 08:58:20 am »
Anyone interested can contact Framecrafters in the USA and CMR racing products in Canada for proper road race frames.  Both companies have a strong reputation for quality custom designed(or replica) and built race frames.

To call either inexpensive might be a stretch though.😉

George

Offline calj737

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Re: Aftermarket frame - group purchase
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2018, 09:03:18 am »
Not that you can't build a frame with one, but some folks like higher precision. .. like most racers.I dare say, these vintage bikes are far from "precise" anywhere along their frame. Neck angles are likely 0x.xx different from each other.
The Seely and Egli frames made in the '70s and '80s were hardly machine-precision made frames.

Sure, if I were attempting to build a Moto"N" bike, I'd go with a professionally made jig. We/they aren't.


So to suggest you should expect a pro built frame for 2 K is ludicrous. Well, Frank, that all depends upon where you live. I've got buddies that will happily build a whole frame, material included, for darn near $2,000. They're professional frame shops that build every day, for Race Spec. Its no big deal, nor daunting task. They weld up a Nascar frame in under 2 days, and that has dozens and dozens of welds that are X-rayed.

SOHCs have barely a dozen welds, and all of them are 1" tube or less. I can tell you from personal experience, welding up an SOHC frame using a jig to position the thing, doesn't take me 8 hours. So, at your $75/hr rate, thats less than $800. Throw in about 2 more hours for the swing arm, and there you go-


The quickest  way to get talented welders fabricators, machinists to stop working on motorcycle stuff..... is to expect them to work for low pay..
I dare say, that if the tubing were pre-made, anyone with decent skills and a jig to position their frame, can weld the thing. TIG welding a tube frame is simply not that hard. Yes, you need to know what you're doing, but its thin-walled, easy to get full penetration, and stronger than stock when you're done. Heck, you could even do it with a 110v TIG welder from Harbor Freight and Scratch Start.  ::)
'74 550 Build http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=126401.0
'73 500 Build http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132935.0

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline slikwilli420

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Re: Aftermarket frame - group purchase
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2018, 09:04:11 am »
Prices quoted were in Euros. I may be a bit low on the estimate, but the guys George mentioned already have jigs and years of experience to draw from. The Egli frame is literally all straight tubes and should cost far less than other options listed.

The frame that Frank showed is an XR69 copy and far more complicated than any frames LF_DO showed in the original post.

Having said all that, 8,000 Euro for any frame is outrageous. A place in England will make you a Rickman CR copy with swingarm for like $2500.
All you gotta do is do what you gotta do.

Vintage Speed Parts Mashup: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=133638.0
Rickman CR Parts Kit Refresh: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,154837.0.html
AHRMA CB750 Racer: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,158461.0.html
AHRMA Superbike Heavyweight Racer: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,173120.0.html
'76F CB750 Patina Redemption: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,174871.0.html

Offline 754

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Re: Aftermarket frame - group purchase
« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2018, 09:14:59 am »
Ok so who build a Rickman copy for 2500 , please let us know.
 I agree the Egli type, should cost less than many others.
 But this idea that someone will build frame cheap, sell it to people that will flog it mercilessly,  and sell it with a receipt,  it may take a long time for that to happen.
 Of course you can weld it up yourself cheaper, if you only count wages maybe.
 But if you figure you can do it cheap, why have you not done it already?
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline gschuld

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Re: Aftermarket frame - group purchase
« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2018, 09:19:30 am »
http://curtisracingframes.com/road-racer.html

FWIW, Dennis Curtis (CMR racing products) was a forward thinker back in the 70s.

He did build a CB750 frame of two back then as well. 

George

Offline 754

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Re: Aftermarket frame - group purchase
« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2018, 09:27:49 am »
I was inbthe Curtis shop 40 years ago, an amazing place while it lasted.
 He built the frames in the pics of the white bikes I posted.
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline livefast_dieold

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Re: Aftermarket frame - group purchase
« Reply #20 on: October 23, 2018, 09:30:09 am »
Anyone interested can contact Framecrafters in the USA and CMR racing products in Canada for proper road race frames.  Both companies have a strong reputation for quality custom designed(or replica) and built race frames.

To call either inexpensive might be a stretch though.😉

George

Got a quote for a Seeley frame a year ago from CMR, they asked 4650 CAN $ for frame + swingarm, so 3000 € or 3500 US $. That's the lowest quotation I was able to find honestly, but then I would have to add shipping and customs duty (maybe VAT even) so it may have reached 3500 or 4000 €.

I was thinking to do it myself (provided I can find someone to cut the tubes precisely), I found this company selling frame jigs in the US: https://www.chopsource.com/full-frame-jig-kit.html

Any feedback on them?



Offline 754

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Re: Aftermarket frame - group purchase
« Reply #21 on: October 23, 2018, 09:39:32 am »
 Tubes  are often hand fitted, to machine them precisely is much work, so is hand fitting too.
 Those cheapo frame jigs can turn out frames.  Pretty good  for a chopper frame.
 But the key element here is they usually get attached to  unmachined or unground surfaces, i.e. no precision.
 But also keep In mind, that  many frames are assembled and welded in jigs for efficiency,  then straightened or tweaked  to final straighteners , after they come out of the jig.
 And there are production tolerances  and racing tolerances..
 The less you pay  the less you get..
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline scottly

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Re: Aftermarket frame - group purchase
« Reply #22 on: October 23, 2018, 09:42:49 am »
From the satanic mechanic site:
Roger Titchmarsh is manufacturing Seeley replica chassis with the approval of Colin Seeley himself:

Roger Titchmarsh Racing
PO Box 8
Summer Bridge
Harrogate HG3 4XQ
GREAT BRITAIN
Tel./Fax +44 (1423) 781772
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
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Offline bwaller

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Re: Aftermarket frame - group purchase
« Reply #23 on: October 23, 2018, 09:56:15 am »
Denis (CMR) is a close friend. He's been dying to build a frame for my 550. ;D Tim V on here had two racebikes with CMR frames.

If anyone wants info from Denis, let Tim or I know and we'll get the "family rate" .  ;)

Offline 754

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Re: Aftermarket frame - group purchase
« Reply #24 on: October 23, 2018, 10:12:31 am »
 To be fair all the frames in first post are nickel plated..
 So right there, that is 750 and up in any currency.
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way