Topic: Aftermarket frame - group purchase

[754]

I want to know where you can get enough chrome Moly tubing to build a frame for 125.00
 Cuz that's about 25 ft of tubing, and we could neverget it for 5 bucks a foot..
 And all the bungs for 50 bux..?

[slikwilli420]

Ok Frank, double the prices Cal quoted and you are still near dirt cheap. I built a jig a few years ago that should be more than adequate to build me a frame or two. I don't trust my welding skills or I would have built one. The materials really werent that expensive and I think to have built the jig and one frame I would be under $1000 with every ancillary cost associated. Simple machines have simple frames, it becomes about finding someone who wants to help you undertake you project that is the issue. Frame places are specialist shops and they do this to put food on the table. A guy in his garage with a few connections to the fabrication world should be able to do it for far less.

[754]

 All right then do it, and tell us what it cost.
 So what do you estimate for fitting tubes and all the welding.. even considering you have a tubing notcher and say a mill..
 I am guessing 20 hours plus.
 There us more people that think they can build a frame, than people actually doing it..
 Heck, even just a swingarm , could easily take 6 or more hours..
 Try it and see..
 

[slikwilli420]

We have already quoted the cost of raw materials. If I am doing it for myself, labor is free. Say $300 in materials (its less but to be generous) plus the cost of welding. If it takes a pro welding 20 hours (again, being really generous) thats $1200. Now Im in $1500 for a complete custom frame, and likely a whole lot less. People assign this mythical status to making a frame. Yes, there will be a difference between my home built frame and one from a pro fab shop, but with care of fitment and welding (Id use a professional welder to do mine) it may be very difficult to tell the difference.

[gschuld]

Hand fitting the tubing for a single frame will be time consuming no doubt.

But if Mirko designed programs that allowed the ability for a machine to create a complete “kit” with all pieces cut to a fairly precise degree of accuracy, then a high quality chassis welder could justify creating a proper jig and weld up a number of frames at potentially a reasonable cost.

That’s a lot of ifs, and all this cost time and money. I’m not bad on a tig welder, but I’d send that kind of job to someone I know who has been welding intricate custom chassis for 35 years.  His stuff is beautiful....

That said, I’m impressed with the performance that seems available in our old factory frames with a few hours of cleanup and gussets.

George

[slikwilli420]

George's comment hatched an idea. How about a frame kit? Get all the tubes bent and coped close enough that only some hand finishing is left and let the end user get them all welded. I would be in for that since much of the cost will be putting the tubes together. Shipping would be cheaper and likely way less hassle from customs paperwork wise.

[livefast_dieold]

Denis (CMR) is a close friend. He's been dying to build a frame for my 550. Tim V on here had two racebikes with CMR frames.

If anyone wants info from Denis, let Tim or I know and we'll get the "family rate" . 

I exchanged emails directly with him, very friendly and professional.
Maybe we can even ask him what would be the price if 5 or more people purchase the same frame...

But is there actually anyone here interested in a racing frame? Because if it's just me then this whole discussion is useless :-)

[calj737]

I want to know where you can get enough chrome Moly tubing to build a frame for 125.00
 Cuz that's about 25 ft of tubing, and we could neverget it for 5 bucks a foot..
 And all the bungs for 50 bux..?

Frank, you live in a small world I'm afraid. There are so many metal supply houses here in the States that you can order piece good to size, large quantity, small quantity, whatever. Here's a simple website from the home of NASCAR, Mooresville, NC. You can see clearly, 4130 in 1" is VERY AFFORDABLE. Heck, Hot rolled is even cheaper (akin to the stock frame). Even DOM is cheap.
https://www.stockcarsteel.com/4130-chrome-moly/4130-chrome-moly-round-tube

You don't want to have to "hand fit" the tubing. The whole point of having CNC bent tubing is to have the geometry in the CAD file, and the intersecting notches CNC plasma cut at the same time. Tube bending shops do this regularly.

To Geroge's point, as I said, if Mirko had the engine hoops bent and notched here in the states, the balance of straight tubing is easily and readily available elsewhere. Yes, this notion is a "kit" to be assembled either by a welder, or a competent builder. Its NOT THAT HARD, FFS.

As for the mounting bungs, geez, simple proper wall tube, cut to length, and passed through plates and welded up. Really, you are missing the whole point I think. I'm not describing threaded bungs, I'm referring to the bolt mounting bungs.

Ok so who build a Rickman copy for 2500 , please let us know. I have no clue who does, but I can assure you, it can be done with some reasonable skills and elbow grease. The nickel plating requires professional service if that's a requirement.

But this idea that someone will build frame cheap, sell it to people that will flog it mercilessly,  and sell it with a receipt,  it may take a long time for that to happen. Frank my friend, you mistake my posts. I am not suggesting that a professional frame shop will, or should build them for $2,500 with their overhead and liability embedded into the cost. I was more describing "how it can be done" by a small group of interested folks with combined talents and common passion.

But if you figure you can do it cheap, why have you not done it already? Well I'll tell you why- even at 50% profit, (sake of argument lets call that $2,000) what is the total addressable market globally for such a retro, vintage frame? 50? 100? 200? I'd wager less than 50. But for the purposes of math, let's say 50x$2,000. That's $100k gross. Pay your overhead and taxes, and sh!t, I can't afford the pay cut. Would I make a few frames for close pals, charging them only my labor to weld? Sure I would. (And have). But to make it a full time, viable business, not enough customers out there.

There is simply too limited a market for anyone to do this as a full stop business (report frames). CMR makes great frames, as does Framecrafters, Roger Titmarsch, and many others mentioned. But they make them for many models and brands and numerous types in order to survive. And I'm glad they do, as they all do spectacular work.

Look at the bloke on this forum who did the HB-1 clone bike. I wonder if he sold any after that first commissioned bike... Who would spend the $25-$30k for a knock-off? Maybe someone, but those suckers aren't the masses.

I think you're right, Frank, 20 hours to notch and fit the tubes, and then weld them up. 20hoursX$75=$1500. Exactly what I said earlier  And the raw materials, and we are back to my original estimate of closer to $2,000 for a frame if done in a "kit" and "assembled" by contractors. My approach is a "group-share" project notion. Sorry if my posts created confusion, but that's what I interpreted this thread to be about.

[gschuld]

That’s a good question regarding potential interested bodies.  Presuming a buyer would be interested in road racing, the classes you can race an aftermarket frame is somewhat limited, more so if it is monoshock as many classes require a traditional twin shock chassis.

I’ve had a number of discussions with Dennis Curtis and spent some time at his shop a few years ago while he was in the middle of building one of the XR-69 frames for the Team USA International Challenge.  Amazing craftsmanship👍  Talk about nice jigs😉

George

[MessnerMoto]

just to clarify this hole topic.

Riccardo(livefast_dieold) was talking about getting complete assebled/welded/redytouse frame at your doorstep

[gschuld]

just to clarify this hole topic.

Riccardo(livefast_dieold) was talking about getting complete assebled/welded/redytouse frame at your doorstep

What’s the fun in that when we can do it the HARD way😁

George

[slikwilli420]

just to clarify this hole topic.

Riccardo(livefast_dieold) was talking about getting complete assebled/welded/redytouse frame at your doorstep

What’s the fun in that when we can do it the HARD way😁

George

Oh George (shaking head)

I still would me more interested in a kit from a price standpoint and it would give me the ability to customize small details.

[gschuld]

I was just making light of our taking the original concept of having a hands off professionally built frame made to a very much hands on approach.

I think the frame kit approach is entirely doable logistically as long as all parties involved can maintain the same high level of craftsmanship.  From design/program, to CNC cut out frame kit pieces, to proper jig design and build, to aligning and welding the frame/swingarm.  One disappointment in quality in that chain and the results will be compromised.

FWIW, two pics from the CMR shop, one of Dennis next to one of his special frame jigs.

[calj737]

FWIW, two pics from the CMR shop, one of Dennis next to one of his special frame jigs.

You can see that frame jig is not precision machined, but it is very strong and straight, and rather easily constructed (provided one is diligent in its construction). And CMR still turns out highest quality frames.

Biggest consideration is the platform. Must be dead nuts level in 2 directions, and dead nuts plumb on all the rails. I’ve seen these made from square tube,  robust channel, railroad track, and of course large plattens.

[754]

Look closer at the neck post fixture it's either milled or ground.. good as that is very important.
You can get by with less as I mentioned, some frames are built to loose spec, then straightened or tuned later
This fixture looks like not a modular design, some of the elements are tacked in place probably a temporary setup.
 My buddy uses one that is much more involved, his own design... and at least one of his is a rotissiere or swings at least 180 degrees for ease of welding.
 Another thing I used to do was work on production fixtures for  Western Star trucks.
 They used a modular approach that pretty much was adjustable in 2 planes in most cases, fine tuning with shims.. I would make pieces for the fixtures and  did a huge amount of drilling fixtures. I gained a good under standing of fixture design and  adjustability.
 Plenty of ways to get the job done, understanding the objective is a huge  factor.
 That said, no matter how good the coping is, you probably will still have to tweak the joint fitment,  sure they can be 3D milled, but you would not like the price.

[754]

 Calj737, Thanks for the link for the very well priced CroMo tubing..

[scottly]

Seeley and Rickman frames were made from Reynolds 531, not chrome moly, and were brazed, not tig welded. Reynolds 631 is more suitable for welding, IIRC.
The first rule of fabrication is whatever you think it will cost, double that, and even then it will take several finished pieces before you begin to break even, much less make a profit. If you want a Seeley frame, contact Roger. It will probably be cheaper in the long run, as he doesn't have to go through the learning curve again.

[754]

I have always thought 531 and 4130 were pretty much the same alloy. I would like to know the differences.

I think if you are thinking to build your own frame, build a swingarm first.   Make a for cast of what you think it will take timewise.. the  keep track of your time. That will tell the talem and give you a more realistic scope on building a frame..

 I think there is a big reason nobody is offering kits, people that already  are building frames  realise that if you can't go through all the steps, you may not be ready.
 That said , anyone that wants to build one, I would try to help with it..

[scottly]

I have always thought 531 and 4130 were pretty much the same alloy. I would like to know the differences.

Reynolds 531 is chrome manganese, not chrome molybdenum.

[turboguzzi]

Mirko, was kidding all along of course,
Nevertheless, we all seem to have short memory or simply were not around when Mec pulled together this mega project, already 10 years ago.
Still my hat's off to the guy after all these years

Look at what this guy has accomplished on a bare table.... and drool

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,44736.0.html

[calj737]

Seeley and Rickman frames were made from Reynolds 531, not chrome moly, and were brazed, not tig welded. Reynolds 631 is more suitable for welding, IIRC.

I am personally well aware of that. The reason I referenced CroMo is availability, weldability, and 531 is much harder to come by. Modern frames are more often CroMo, and to stay within possible regulations for racing, steel frames are more likely to get a nod than alloy frames.

531 can be brazed with a TIG torch, but you really need to know what you’re doing to undertake it. I’ll stick with CroMo 

[slikwilli420]

Everyone geeks out on Chomoly but the fact is that even a quality DOM tubing with higher carbon content will be far stronger than a stock frame, from nearly any era. Chromoly is not lighter than regular steel as many think (most on here are aware but just reiterating the point) but you can use thinner material. Stock frames were roughly 0.065" wall tubing and with quality tubing (DOM or Chromoly) you could probably go down to 0.058" for main pieces and even thinner for ancillary pieces. Joe Sh*t the Ragman (as my dad calls him) can weld DOM any day of the week and likely surpass the quality of welds on stock CB750 frames while it takes far more skill (read $$) to get Chromoly done to the same standard. Im still interested in the kit as it takes the most tedious part of the job out of my hands. Precision bending of tubes is something that would take me a lot of material to get right while I can easily handle the jigging and welding part on my end.

[gschuld]

It’s important to consider what frame is being copied and how accepted these frames are for different classes.  Twin rear shock frames will certainly be more accepted in more classes.  This leads more toward Rickman or Seeley type frames.  Competing directly with a gentleman already building Seeley frames/swingarms, with Colin Seeley approval, isn’t such a great idea.

That leaves a Rickman or another lesser known vintage custom twin shock frame or a clean sheet new design.

Just something to consider.  Narrowing down what you’d want and finding out how many people could be interested in having one for x amount could be an important issue.

I have someone who could likely jig and weld a number of 4130 frames for a very competitive price with very high accuracy and quality.  I’m just not in the market for a custom frame personally.

George

[slikwilli420]

It’s important to consider what frame is being copied and how accepted these frames are for different classes.  Twin rear shock frames will certainly be more accepted in more classes.  This leads more toward Rickman or Seeley type frames.  Competing directly with a gentleman already building Seeley frames/swingarms, with Colin Seeley approval, isn’t such a great idea.

That leaves a Rickman or another lesser known vintage custom twin shock frame or a clean sheet new design.

Just something to consider.  Narrowing down what you’d want and finding out how many people could be interested in having one for x amount could be an important issue.

I have someone who could likely jig and weld a number of 4130 frames for a very competitive price with very high accuracy and quality.  I’m just not in the market for a custom frame personally.

George

All very solid points George. Though there are already outfits making Rickman CR frame as well. The exotica of the trellis frame is appealing but then again, it takes more to get that going like a custom tank that is already available for the Rickman option. The Egli is interesting but as already stated, very easy to produce relative to other frames so cost would be a different consideration. For me personally, N of 1, a stock frame with some nice enhancements made from better quality steel and eliminating all the stamped head tube crap is interesting.

[gschuld]

It’s important to consider what frame is being copied and how accepted these frames are for different classes.  Twin rear shock frames will certainly be more accepted in more classes.  This leads more toward Rickman or Seeley type frames.  Competing directly with a gentleman already building Seeley frames/swingarms, with Colin Seeley approval, isn’t such a great idea.

That leaves a Rickman or another lesser known vintage custom twin shock frame or a clean sheet new design.

Just something to consider.  Narrowing down what you’d want and finding out how many people could be interested in having one for x amount could be an important issue.

I have someone who could likely jig and weld a number of 4130 frames for a very competitive price with very high accuracy and quality.  I’m just not in the market for a custom frame personally.

George

All very solid points George. Though there are already outfits making Rickman CR frame as well. The exotica of the trellis frame is appealing but then again, it takes more to get that going like a custom tank that is already available for the Rickman option. The Egli is interesting but as already stated, very easy to produce relative to other frames so cost would be a different consideration. For me personally, N of 1, a stock frame with some nice enhancements made from better quality steel and eliminating all the stamped head tube crap is interesting.

So like the proper vintage Factory Honda CR frames.  Sure, that would make a lot of sense.  It also offers more realistic possibilities for the spendy cafe bike crowd.

You could do a slightly upgraded geometry version of the original CR frames too.  They were designed around the limits of the rather pathetic road race tires available 50 years ago.

Perhaps a modest head angle change, slight wingarm pivot lowering to account for the steeper swingarm angles used today, etc.

There is another factor though.  For many, with going through all the effort into building custom race frames, having the end result being a very unique visually frame add the WOW factor to impress others.  A CR type frame is hard to distinguish from a stripped down a race prepped $50 factory frame.  This affect is hard to ignore and is embedded in the male DNA.  Some more than others perhaps.

George