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Author Topic: Having an issue seating the cylinder block.  (Read 533 times)

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Offline juntjoo

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Having an issue seating the cylinder block.
« on: November 09, 2018, 11:37:42 am »

Anyone have experience or just a tip on what I can do here?

-Ben

82 Nighthawk 650

I just wanted to own and ride a bike. instead I became a (amateur)mechanic.

Offline Tim2005

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Re: Having an issue seating the cylinder block.
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2018, 03:10:59 pm »
Are they the original dowels at the ends of the block? It looks like they are a bit too long. Either that or they haven't dropped into their holes well and the block is hanging up on them.

Offline juntjoo

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Re: Having an issue seating the cylinder block.
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2018, 03:24:03 pm »
Thanks. I didn't take the block off originally but the pins were already sitting in the crankcase so I just assumed they were completely sealed. Tomorrow when I get back at it I'll check the holes in the underside of the block and try to fit them I manually/individually.
-Ben

82 Nighthawk 650

I just wanted to own and ride a bike. instead I became a (amateur)mechanic.

Online Scott S

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Re: Having an issue seating the cylinder block.
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2018, 08:25:59 pm »
 Make sure you seat the cam chain tensioner properly or you'll be back in there again!
'73 CB500/550
'71 CT70
'14 Triumph Scrambler

 and too many projects...

Offline 754

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Re: Having an issue seating the cylinder block.
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2018, 09:08:17 pm »
Dowels are easily damaged , when trying to remove them.
 My favorite way to pull them is with a tap.
 Is it the cylinder that came off that motor ?
 Did you try to remove dowels  and scar them or make them oval ?
Can you lift it high enough to get your little finger in to feel for damage..
 Don't put to much pressure on that crank bolt.
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline juntjoo

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Re: Having an issue seating the cylinder block.
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2018, 09:52:03 am »
Dowel pins https://imgur.com/a/8PVDCMU

I didn't scar them or anything. Currently after my last attempt at wiggling the block on they're settled in pretty good. I'd need to use a tap to get them out but I wonder if they're the culprit. The block was just lifted off I presume. I didn't feel any obstructions underneath, nothing obvious. Tried tightening down a bit but I'm scared. As I should be. I have a proclivity to break things. I think I'll get that reverse tap and get pins out then try just to make sure...

Will that little tear in the (new) gasket there cause problems? That wet spot where it tore was from some gasoline. Is there something I should smear in there?
« Last Edit: November 11, 2018, 09:55:23 am by juntjoo »
-Ben

82 Nighthawk 650

I just wanted to own and ride a bike. instead I became a (amateur)mechanic.

Offline juntjoo

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Re: Having an issue seating the cylinder block.
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2018, 10:08:05 am »
http://imgur.com/a/0wA9YBn

I guess no using a tap to get it out. That's for oil correct?
-Ben

82 Nighthawk 650

I just wanted to own and ride a bike. instead I became a (amateur)mechanic.

Offline juntjoo

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Re: Having an issue seating the cylinder block.
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2018, 09:06:53 am »
9mm ID/10mm OD https://imgur.com/a/zuCEeBA

If I'd been the one who took it apart it I'd know if these oil dowel pins are original. I'm going to imagine so and that in fact I'm supposed to press them in by tightening down the whole thing but I don't know for sure. Maybe I have them upside down? If I remember correctly one pin was already in the block and I just put the other one in to fit the same way and it just easilly fit in. I remember it was tapered, or stepped down in diameter and I put the smaller side in. I think I'll need a special tool to remove them at this point. Already scuffed one up a bit too much. Are these supposed to be pressed I tight as heck? Are the block and head supposed to fit easily or require pressing the pins in?
-Ben

82 Nighthawk 650

I just wanted to own and ride a bike. instead I became a (amateur)mechanic.

Offline 754

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Re: Having an issue seating the cylinder block.
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2018, 10:01:41 am »
I just use a tap, twist them out  but I have many sizes,
 Btw that does not look like most dowels   thicker wall, can't be the size you listed.
They generally have to be tapped in, some go easy.
 But if you pulled  them or part way and they are cocked a bit, it will take some extra tapping to get them sliding in.
 Make sure they are smooth.
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline Phoenix

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Re: Having an issue seating the cylinder block.
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2018, 10:34:13 am »
If it were me, and I've been there, I would pull of the jugs and measure the pin length and pin depths.  Ideally, check the fit w/o the pins.
Ed Spengeman
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1971 CB750K1 (Stock)
1973 CB350 Twin  (Gone)

Offline juntjoo

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Re: Having an issue seating the cylinder block.
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2018, 10:41:42 am »
I just use a tap, twist them out  but I have many sizes,
 Btw that does not look like most dowels   thicker wall, can't be the size you listed.
They generally have to be tapped in, some go easy.
 But if you pulled  them or part way and they are cocked a bit, it will take some extra tapping to get them sliding in.
 Make sure they are smooth.

http://partstream.arinet.com/Mobile/UT9QOkNB9cTAfbSJvd9VecST4zy8a0T2hjnStblpb433l6aSssMlA_BkW1KQ5y_jLXlY6ANpm_BmcM17qQdedSxglo0MyUNQOm8I9PvYvhFRpebPQJWj7kuqbAq7A1P30.html#/Mobile/2i3esvi_J4GMMAyOe7dXTVH6NQIzLpj5muN_NtyzkcYvPovZLGkJvvtPkb8UhdBLoN_xrd9_YlTHUPwUJM2VEOlAWfObXVuRH-ggFDLX92A1.html

"oil control valve" and now I'm thinking I put them i upside down if what this diagram seems to show. I think I gotta get my hands on a special tool. May check with my mechanic who's working on my truck atm. Good time to go check on it...
-Ben

82 Nighthawk 650

I just wanted to own and ride a bike. instead I became a (amateur)mechanic.

Offline The Lone Builder

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Re: Having an issue seating the cylinder block.
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2018, 01:11:47 pm »
I went through a very similar story; on a 750K2 so don't know if it's the same. See the story here:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168350.msg1950253.html#msg1950253

First, I agree with 754 that those dowels don't look like originals - certainly not like the 750 ones.

If you ahven't got a right size tap, a drill bit will do the same job.

The main thing I learned was to make sure both the bore and the outside of the dowels are clean are smooth. Then measure teh depth of both sides and get a dowel to fit.

Good luck.

Sean
CB750 K2 - A work in progress
CB750 K1 - The less, said the better!
CB450 K1 - It's black.
CB400F Supersport - It's rusty!

Offline juntjoo

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Re: Having an issue seating the cylinder block.
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2018, 02:02:16 pm »
I went through a very similar story; on a 750K2 so don't know if it's the same. See the story here:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168350.msg1950253.html#msg1950253

First, I agree with 754 that those dowels don't look like originals - certainly not like the 750 ones.

If you ahven't got a right size tap, a drill bit will do the same job.

The main thing I learned was to make sure both the bore and the outside of the dowels are clean are smooth. Then measure teh depth of both sides and get a dowel to fit.

Good luck.

Sean

Thanks. No, I'm sure at this point that I put them in upside down as the pic in the fiche page I linked to above shows them(oil control valves) them oriented with the narrow side up. I put mine in down hence the tight/stuck fit. I stuck them via rubber mallet  - cylinder head. With the narrow ends of these up I can see how they wouldn't interfere with the holes in the underside of the cylinder head. Silly mistake. Destined to make them til you do these jobs several times til you know each part. First time going this deep into this machine. Now I know what an oil control valve looks like. Speaking of which, I've dropped some rtv debris in the engine scraping the mating surfaces. Not much but I ought to change and flush the oil right? Flush with what? I've r/heard how those pieces get stuck in oil passages like of these valves, which I now can see how junk could block them then no oil to cylinder head ouch.

If anyone has any ideas on pulling these oit(without damaging), gripping them really. I'll ask mechanic tomorrow. He's also a machine shop so he should have an idea/tool. I can get around them with pliers and electrical tape to protect but can't physically grip them enough. I'm not too familiar with many vice gripping tools like higher end pliers like those Irwin vice grip ones. Are they much more mechanically advantageous than standard pliers? I've always wanted to grab a pair. What do you use to get the best hand grip on something this little and difficult to grab?
-Ben

82 Nighthawk 650

I just wanted to own and ride a bike. instead I became a (amateur)mechanic.

Offline 754

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Re: Having an issue seating the cylinder block.
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2018, 08:39:09 pm »
Like i said tap, or sometime a jacobs chuck will work.. should work good if dowels are thick.
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline bryanj

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Re: Having an issue seating the cylinder block.
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2018, 08:49:53 pm »
Not sure what bike it is but the 500/550/650 had the oil restrictor jets in the base dowels so you can not get a tap into them and yes they only go one way round
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Offline 754

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Re: Having an issue seating the cylinder block.
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2018, 08:55:31 pm »
You don't need to go thru the bushing just grab it and turn it,
 Get a measurement and I will tell you tap size. 
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline bryanj

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Re: Having an issue seating the cylinder block.
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2018, 09:39:35 pm »
You cant get anything into the dowels i have seen as at one end the flat part of the jet is damn near flush and the other has the "pin" very similar jet to later 750 but a push tight fit in the dowel
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline trigger

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Re: Having an issue seating the cylinder block.
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2018, 12:04:15 am »
Oil jet in up side down  ;)

Offline juntjoo

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Re: Having an issue seating the cylinder block.
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2018, 07:30:47 am »
Yeah, no tap is going in there cuz the little oil passage is like right there in the middle. I got this. In another forum someone suggested heating it all up a bit(without melting the dang thing like I'm sure I could do) and grab em with pliers(wish I had a piece of leather or similar). Thanks guys. I'll report back hopefully with this bike up and running or at least on its way...
-Ben

82 Nighthawk 650

I just wanted to own and ride a bike. instead I became a (amateur)mechanic.

Offline juntjoo

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Re: Having an issue seating the cylinder block.
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2018, 12:42:59 pm »
Mission completed https://imgur.com/a/7Q81sYW

Thanks all. Heat, lube, a tap in this case, tenacity and CARE & PATIENCE (for future REFERENCE I'm finding does many the job.

Had to use a oversized tap. Did min damage inside. Outside scores sanded. Valves still function where they need to. Everything fits.

Def got some debris in the engine after all this. Should I completely flush it out? If so I'm noticing the drain plug right at the bottom but I can still see where stuff could end up around the hole inside(along with oil filter cover).
« Last Edit: November 15, 2018, 10:21:30 am by juntjoo »
-Ben

82 Nighthawk 650

I just wanted to own and ride a bike. instead I became a (amateur)mechanic.

Offline Don R

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Re: Having an issue seating the cylinder block.
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2018, 02:26:51 pm »
 Any junk in there is bad, with luck it will lay in the bottom but I'd hate to count on it. Is there an oil pan to remove? I usually have a jug or two of left over racing oil sitting around. I've been known to use it for a flush on a questionable engine when I've cut the racecars filter and know it's clean.
If the things you own end up owning you, it's better to be owned by some cool things.

Offline juntjoo

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Re: Having an issue seating the cylinder block.
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2018, 03:10:13 pm »
Any junk in there is bad, with luck it will lay in the bottom but I'd hate to count on it. Is there an oil pan to remove? I usually have a jug or two of left over racing oil sitting around. I've been known to use it for a flush on a questionable engine when I've cut the racecars filter and know it's clean.

Yes

http://partstream.arinet.com/Mobile/ACrA2nDmW-_-JVhDz3cH1VNvMhSn45fSDmeEBOSpjHuFYOqNlOJrndDPbKHWprofou4vGu3gvhphiAJdzvzmF3i4Nc_39yNlkNPg5KFe8U41.html

I suppose while there remove that strainer above? Shall I get it running then start pouring oil and letting it idle to get stuff moving and between flushes? Thanks. And I suppose if I strain the oil properly outside the engine i can save the good stuff. I don't have any old unused oil.
-Ben

82 Nighthawk 650

I just wanted to own and ride a bike. instead I became a (amateur)mechanic.

Offline juntjoo

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Re: Having an issue seating the cylinder block.
« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2018, 10:24:35 am »
Head bolt stripping at 10 lbs/sf? https://imgur.com/a/iFO3G1v

This is a situation I've been in many a time. How do you know when you're stripping threads torqing bolts? Book calls for 17-22 lb/sf and it has stayed at about 10 for a bit too long for my comfort. There's always part of me that says 'just keep going, it's made to handle over 22lb/ft. You're almost there, don't quit!' and I don't trust that voice 100%

It's definitely getting stuck too early. Strange. These long bolts have a long way down to the threaded hole. You'd think it'd be pretty difficult to strip the threads. Well I would.

Been looking online for some type of tap extension. Found individual long taps but very expensive. Trying to avoid having to take it all apart again. And you gotta get new gaskets each time right? Well at least if you don't want to take chance of any resulting leaks right? Or is the possibility not THAT likely? I JUST put in a new gasket set.

Anyway, unless anyone comes up with a better plan I think I'll try retapping the hole with the bolts themselves, different ones to avoid possibility one catches the thread in hole wrong. Maybe torch the bolt first, oil, then rethread? I'll say I turned the bolt a good few times with the torque wrench @ 10 lb/sf. Idk. Hopefully it's just a false alarm...
« Last Edit: November 15, 2018, 10:27:01 am by juntjoo »
-Ben

82 Nighthawk 650

I just wanted to own and ride a bike. instead I became a (amateur)mechanic.

Offline 754

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Re: Having an issue seating the cylinder block.
« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2018, 10:26:34 am »
Weld a rod to a tap..
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline juntjoo

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Re: Having an issue seating the cylinder block.
« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2018, 10:36:26 am »
Weld a rod to a tap..

!!! I should have upgraded my 'shop' with welding setup years ago. Would have solved a lot of problems since then.. We'll see how I make out with current plan. I should have properly cleaned and lubed the bolts and predicted them beforehand. Bad mechanic
-Ben

82 Nighthawk 650

I just wanted to own and ride a bike. instead I became a (amateur)mechanic.

 

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