Author Topic: '82 cb650sc cafe project  (Read 13198 times)

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Offline calj737

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Re: '82 cb650sc cafe project
« Reply #25 on: November 29, 2018, 05:04:34 AM »
I've heard (read)) that some switch to carbs from a cb750, but I'm not sure what the advantages might be after you get past the "style" angle of the switch.
Potentially much easier to tune and some performance gains.
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Offline SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan

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Re: '82 cb650sc cafe project
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2018, 08:29:40 AM »
I've heard (read)) that some switch to carbs from a cb750, but I'm not sure what the advantages might be after you get past the "style" angle of the switch.
Potentially much easier to tune and some performance gains.

This is an option if you have a 1979 or 1980 CB650 head (spaced the same as the 750).
1975 CB550K1 "Blue" Stockish Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=135005.0)
1975 CB550F1 frame/CB650 engine hybrid "The Hot Mess" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,150220.0.html)
2008 Triumph Thruxton (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,190956.0.html)
2014 MV Agusta Brutale Dragster 800
2015 Yamaha FZ-09 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,186861.0.html)

"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

Sold/Emeritus
1973 CB750K2 "Bionic Mongrel" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132734.0) - Sold
1977 CB750K7 "Nine Lives" Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=50490.0) - Sold
2005 RVT1000RR RC51-SP2 "El Diablo" - Sold
2016+ Triumph Thruxton 1200 R (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,170198.0.html) - Sold

Offline kerryb

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Re: '82 cb650sc cafe project
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2018, 12:13:54 PM »
Well, this is an '82 so when I held pd42's up to the engine they obviously don't fit.  To make it work I would need to build a mounting plate...is this re-racking the carbs?  Not sure if I'm up to the task and since the existing cv carbs work fine, the motivation to try is not there yet.  Achieving the precision needed to make the chokes work smooth is not something I have the tooling for.  But we can always pipedream right?
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Offline SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan

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Re: '82 cb650sc cafe project
« Reply #28 on: December 02, 2018, 02:40:01 PM »
Well, this is an '82 so when I held pd42's up to the engine they obviously don't fit.  To make it work I would need to build a mounting plate...is this re-racking the carbs?  Not sure if I'm up to the task and since the existing cv carbs work fine, the motivation to try is not there yet.  Achieving the precision needed to make the chokes work smooth is not something I have the tooling for.  But we can always pipedream right?

Re-racking the carbs is re-mounting the individual carburetors so that they are aligned with the head intake ports. 

As a practical matter, the the easiest way to allow your bike to used the CB750 carburetors is to swap out your head for a 1979 or 1980 unit.  In my opinion, the juice is not worth the squeeze.  You are not running an overbore kit and cam, so the carburetors will not have an enormous effect.  And right now, your CV carburetors sound like they are working fine. 
1975 CB550K1 "Blue" Stockish Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=135005.0)
1975 CB550F1 frame/CB650 engine hybrid "The Hot Mess" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,150220.0.html)
2008 Triumph Thruxton (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,190956.0.html)
2014 MV Agusta Brutale Dragster 800
2015 Yamaha FZ-09 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,186861.0.html)

"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

Sold/Emeritus
1973 CB750K2 "Bionic Mongrel" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132734.0) - Sold
1977 CB750K7 "Nine Lives" Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=50490.0) - Sold
2005 RVT1000RR RC51-SP2 "El Diablo" - Sold
2016+ Triumph Thruxton 1200 R (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,170198.0.html) - Sold

Offline Godffery

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Re: '82 cb650sc cafe project
« Reply #29 on: December 02, 2018, 09:33:01 PM »
 So here is a weird story...
A friend stopped by my shop one day, looking for a set of Carbs for a CB650 he was working on. It seems that the PO had totally destroyed the original set, but he brought them with for a size & spacing comparison. I knew that I did not have a set from a 650 but told him he was welcome to rummage threw what I had, well he finds a set that had the proper dimensions but oddly enough, they were from a Kawasaki ZR550 (Zephyr).  Well Damned if they didn't work like they were made for the CB650, he literally just bolted them on, fired it up and set the idle...?!  :o 
 But... Here's the thing; I can't remember if his was the early model 650 or the later?   :-\
« Last Edit: December 02, 2018, 09:35:16 PM by Godffery »

Online seanbarney41

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Re: '82 cb650sc cafe project
« Reply #30 on: December 03, 2018, 01:33:41 AM »
That would be pretty epic trip to discover you can just slap on some mikuni vm24s from a kz650...
If it works good, it looks good...

Offline SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan

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Re: '82 cb650sc cafe project
« Reply #31 on: December 03, 2018, 10:09:58 AM »
I do recall someone making a mention of some model Kawasaki that has better CV carburetors that work with the later head (81-82).  I don't have any more than that though.
1975 CB550K1 "Blue" Stockish Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=135005.0)
1975 CB550F1 frame/CB650 engine hybrid "The Hot Mess" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,150220.0.html)
2008 Triumph Thruxton (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,190956.0.html)
2014 MV Agusta Brutale Dragster 800
2015 Yamaha FZ-09 (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,186861.0.html)

"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

Sold/Emeritus
1973 CB750K2 "Bionic Mongrel" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132734.0) - Sold
1977 CB750K7 "Nine Lives" Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=50490.0) - Sold
2005 RVT1000RR RC51-SP2 "El Diablo" - Sold
2016+ Triumph Thruxton 1200 R (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,170198.0.html) - Sold

Offline kerryb

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Re: '82 cb650sc cafe project
« Reply #32 on: December 14, 2018, 07:38:02 AM »
Finally made some progress on frame modifications.  Found a race car shop to bend some tubing, (second attempt) and after much guesswork and fitting, I have a beginning for the new tail section.  Rear wheell is currently blocked up at full shock compression to maintain clearance between the hoop and the tire.
On another note, Pd 42 carbs fit nicely in the stock boots...so a re-rack of the carb bank is looming on the horizon.  it could be quite the adventure.
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Offline kerryb

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Re: '82 cb650sc cafe project
« Reply #33 on: December 18, 2018, 06:17:17 AM »
A little more progress...currently perfecting my technique of bending a slug around a corner.  Seeking advice about slugs, plates, and gussets for joining tubes that don't meet square.
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Offline calj737

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Re: '82 cb650sc cafe project
« Reply #34 on: December 18, 2018, 08:03:52 AM »
That’s a tricky fit you got there. You could trim the stock tube back farther, allowing you to establish the new hoop line earlier. If that won’t work because your new hoop is a fixed length, then do a 2 piece join. Bend a small section of tubing at the needed radius to transition from the stock, to new hoop alignment. Weld the section in, then weld the hoop to the new transition section.

Or, a more complicated but less noticeable method is to cut a half lap from the stock and the new hoop, both with tapers so the new joint angle within the welded section. A bit hard to describe in words, but think about the change in angle, the height of the transition, then divide. You’ll end up with a small length of the transition being larger in diameter than 1” to accommodate the transition, but you’ll only have a single joint.

Slugs aren’t needed with this method. In fact, slugs aren’t technically needed in any of these, though they can be helpful. The hoop is welded to the frame, and the truss leg is welded, so there’s little to no likelihood that the hoop would pull apart if your welds are decent.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline kerryb

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Re: '82 cb650sc cafe project
« Reply #35 on: December 18, 2018, 08:50:31 AM »
Thanks calj, I seriously considered the 1/2 lap method, but the time needed to sneek up on those angles and lengths convinced me otherwise.  I wanted to eliminate the down slope completely but the existing tubing was getting too narrow to take any more off, so here's my solution...a solid slug turned to fit.  Then slit and bent to the right angle for the new tube.  The slug is in for these pics, would you approve?
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Offline Godffery

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Re: '82 cb650sc cafe project
« Reply #36 on: December 18, 2018, 09:10:18 AM »
 Well kerryb, I would say you came up with a pretty clever solution there!

Offline calj737

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Re: '82 cb650sc cafe project
« Reply #37 on: December 18, 2018, 11:48:00 AM »
I surely don’t see why it won’t be as good and strong as stock. A few nicely woven passes with small TIG wire, a tubing sander, and you’re golden.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline kerryb

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Re: '82 cb650sc cafe project
« Reply #38 on: December 18, 2018, 01:56:15 PM »
Thanks...what's a tubing sander?  I could always use a new tool!  Does it do more damage than good, like a belt sander, or clean up previous work like a random orbit sander?!? ;D

 Thanks Godffrey, I do what I know the best I can and make stuff up when presented with new problems.
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Offline calj737

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Re: '82 cb650sc cafe project
« Reply #39 on: December 18, 2018, 05:17:06 PM »
http://www.bluerocktools.com/bluerock-polishing-machine-tig-plasma-arc-weld-40a-pipe-polisher-sander-grinder/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIqobe_duq3wIVRpyzCh30egPOEAQYBCABEgIQBvD_BwE

That’s an example of a tubing sander. The belt allows you to wrap around the tubing to sand/grind/polish the circumference without grinding flat spots in a round tube. Very useful tool.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline kerryb

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Re: '82 cb650sc cafe project
« Reply #40 on: December 19, 2018, 06:46:23 AM »
[quote author=calj737

That’s an example of a tubing sander. The belt allows you to wrap around the tubing to sand/grind/polish the circumference without grinding flat spots in a round tube. Very useful tool.
[/quote]

Now that's a nice machine!  I should have one of those in my arsenal.
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Offline calj737

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Re: '82 cb650sc cafe project
« Reply #41 on: December 19, 2018, 06:50:46 AM »
Spend the extra $ and get a Metabo, Fein or Walter
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline kerryb

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Re: '82 cb650sc cafe project
« Reply #42 on: December 19, 2018, 08:11:38 AM »
+1 on the Metabo, that's what my grinder is, and it was money well spent!
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Offline Ramrod_Racing

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Re: '82 cb650sc cafe project
« Reply #43 on: December 20, 2018, 12:29:37 PM »
So here is a weird story...
A friend stopped by my shop one day, looking for a set of Carbs for a CB650 he was working on. It seems that the PO had totally destroyed the original set, but he brought them with for a size & spacing comparison. I knew that I did not have a set from a 650 but told him he was welcome to rummage threw what I had, well he finds a set that had the proper dimensions but oddly enough, they were from a Kawasaki ZR550 (Zephyr).  Well Damned if they didn't work like they were made for the CB650, he literally just bolted them on, fired it up and set the idle...?!  :o 
 But... Here's the thing; I can't remember if his was the early model 650 or the later?   :-\

I do recall someone making a mention of some model Kawasaki that has better CV carburetors that work with the later head (81-82).  I don't have any more than that though.

I just picked up a set of ZX600C (1st gen Ninja carbs) for my '82. I believe they are common to the mid-80's GPZ550's as well. Anyhow, I was planning on needing to do some fiddling to make them fit, but I'll be dammed if the spacing and engine side O.D. are exactly the same. O.D. on the intake side is slightly smaller, so you'd need to form a solution there.

Offline kerryb

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Re: '82 cb650sc cafe project
« Reply #44 on: December 20, 2018, 02:12:20 PM »
Thanks ramrod, that's nice to know what will fit, it completes the story.  I'm leaning toward a set of pd42b's because I have them on the shelf, they fit the intakes, and it will puzzle those in the know.  Making a new rack,  throttle shaft and choke shaft will be a goodle challenge for my meager fab skills.  Is there any good reason against using aluminum for the throttle  and choke actuator shafts?  It sure would be easier to work with, and has enough strength to do the job. As for the airbox, there are so many good ideas out there to simulate the conditions of a stock setup that it will be fun to get creative while trying to make it look good and tuck it up under the seat.
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Offline kerryb

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Re: '82 cb650sc cafe project
« Reply #45 on: December 24, 2018, 05:59:34 AM »
Making some progress, but now I have a style/engineering question.  In these photos the tubing is tacked together, but not finish welded.  I'll disassemble everything for that so I can position the frame on the table.  Before that happens I want to finalize the shock mounts which is where I'm questioning my judgement.  (remember...I tend to overthink!)  The shock is positioned to get the desired position of the rear hoop with the stock shock length.  After cutting out a gusset (there will be four, two pairs) the gusset looks too big.  The circles represent "speed" holes and the thickness is about .107".  So,...do they look too massive? Should I trim them back, a little, a lot, or none at all?

Positive and/or negative opinions welcome.
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Offline calj737

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Re: '82 cb650sc cafe project
« Reply #46 on: December 24, 2018, 06:42:47 AM »
What is important to determine is the swing arm angle to the drive chain. If that is within the range, then you can install your shock at angle from 90->acute.

My impression is the gusset is too big as you fear. I don’t see why you need to double the thickness either. A single piece of .107 is plenty. I’d grind a light bevel where the gusset hits the tubing to allow less amps welding, and a deeper penetration as a result.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline Godffery

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Re: '82 cb650sc cafe project
« Reply #47 on: December 24, 2018, 06:38:04 PM »
 I to, would trim some fat a bit on those gussets.  ;)

Offline kerryb

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Re: '82 cb650sc cafe project
« Reply #48 on: December 24, 2018, 08:21:44 PM »
Better?"

.075" mild steel, still two pieces separated about 1/2" to provide leverage to hold the shock mount post.
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Offline Godffery

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Re: '82 cb650sc cafe project
« Reply #49 on: December 24, 2018, 10:48:12 PM »
Yes I would say better.
The angle of the shocks may be a bit too far forward though.  To check for proper top post location, use a ruler or string from the forward swingarm pivot point, back to the lower shock mount on the swingarm, then (keeping the forward end on the pivot point) rotate the other point up to the frame and see where it lands.