Author Topic: '76 Honda CB550F: Choke and Starting Issues  (Read 1117 times)

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Offline magner

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'76 Honda CB550F: Choke and Starting Issues
« on: November 26, 2018, 10:33:49 PM »
Hello! I'm new to motorcycles and still working out the kinks and getting used to my CB550! I have been having issues starting it, so I dropped in a new battery and topped off the gas (it was very close to empty). I finally got it to start with after maybe 15 hard kicks with the choke all the way on (turned in the direction of the arrow on the lever). The bike would idle really roughly around 200 and would die after a few seconds. Just for the sake of it, I turned off the choke (opposite the direction of the arrow)and it started up with one swift quick, and idled pretty well around 500. Is this not the reverse of what the choke should do? It was not cold out, but given my recent troubles with starting, I figured the choke being on would give it extra help starting. Is this normal behavior? Also should I turn my idle screw in a bit to raise it up around 1000? I have been having lots of starting issues like this and I just want to feel confident in my bike running well enough to get me to work (only 4 miles). Any help is appreciated, I really want to get it running well so I can practice riding without the anxiety of my bike dying or not starting!

Offline Deltarider

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Re: '76 Honda CB550F: Choke and Starting Issues
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2018, 01:06:13 AM »
The bike would idle really roughly around 200 and would die after a few seconds. Just for the sake of it, I turned off the choke (opposite the direction of the arrow)and it started up with one swift quick, and idled pretty well around 500.
Well, Magner, it's amazing the engine will even turn over at such low rpm. Anyway RPMs below 1000 are to be avoided!
The correct cold start procedure is described on p.46 in the Owner's Manual for your model. If you don't have one, here's a copy (scroll down to find yours): http://www.honda4fun.com/materiale-documentazione-tecnica/libretti-uso-a-manutenzione
Before you start, raise the chokelever in order to fully close the carburettor chokeflaps. Now, most owners have learned to use the big (almost central) Idle Adjustment screw to temporarily raise the idle. You know where that screw is located, right? Immediately after the bike starts, you can lower the chokelever to say halfway down or even fully down. Let the bike warm up for a minute (@ 1500- 2000 rpm) while you put on your helmet and gloves. Then the chokelever should be lowered all the way in order to fully open up the carburettor chokeflaps and you can start riding. It is not advised to start riding with the chokes still partially engaged. The high idle should keep the engine running. After a short distance you can turn that adjustment screw back (you will notice the rpm have increased as the engine has further warmed up) to reduce the idle. I use standing at a traffic light for that. It is not unusual to repeat this at the next traffic light to achieve an advised idle of around 1100 rpm. Forsaid Idle Adjustment screw is big enough to facilitate wearing gloves. An alternative way ofcourse is to use the throttle to keep the idle high enough, but that implies you have to keep your hand at the throttle all the time. That's why many riders prefer to use that big Idle Adjustment screw for this. Your choice.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2018, 07:25:45 AM by Deltarider »
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Offline robvangulik

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Re: '76 Honda CB550F: Choke and Starting Issues
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2018, 01:37:12 AM »
As the 76 550 has choke operation on the carbs, I suspect you are using the choke lever the wrong way round.
Lever raised is to choke at first (cold) start, lever down is normal operation with warm engine.

Offline flatlander

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Re: '76 Honda CB550F: Choke and Starting Issues
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2018, 05:51:19 AM »
yes, lever down is for riding and lever up (its handle in horizontal position) is witch choke applied, meaning flaps closed.
these old carbs need to be manually give more gas until the engine warms up fully. i do it with giving it at bit of throttle. the idle adjust screw should be set when the engine is fully warm, and then doesn't need to be touched again ever (unless you use it as delta describes). for reference, i have my idle set at 1200rpm which is a tad higher than what honda says but works well. anyway, 200 or 500 is way too low.

Offline calj737

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Re: '76 Honda CB550F: Choke and Starting Issues
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2018, 06:14:44 AM »
anyway, 200 or 500 is way too low.
One must wonder whether the gauges on his bike are original, or even the correct Tach ratio  ;)
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Offline Stev-o

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Re: '76 Honda CB550F: Choke and Starting Issues
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2018, 08:35:27 AM »
Welcome to vintage bikes!   I have found that each bike can like starting in it's each way, but most like full choke and no throttle till it fires.

I like the idle a little higher than most, around 1500, I set it by ear, these old gauges can be off by 10%.

Good luck
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline TwoTired

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Re: '76 Honda CB550F: Choke and Starting Issues
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2018, 12:40:25 PM »
Choke lever down is the normal run position when the motor is warmed up.  The idle knob is set for 1100-1200 rpm when the engine is warm.

For starting cold, the choke is fully applied to enrich the mixture.  But there is no fast idle cam, so the throttle must be held slightly open to hold RPM up above 1500 rpm -ish.  The choke is partially removed after starting and adjusted downward proportionally to allow power for driving off.  There is no need for a stationary run up which only wastes gas.  You can drive off immediately, progressively removing choke in increments until none is needed to idle where the idle knob is set. It only takes a few blocks of driving.  Don't ask the engine for max power until it has warmed up and the oil is flowing well. During the warm up, the choke is placed where the throttle can make the motor revs increase and no more choke than necessary to do that.

A cold engine atomizes fuel poorly and so efficiency is low.  That's why it will idle lower with a warm engine idle knob setting when it's cold.  I typically suit up with helmet and gloves on, apply full choke for starting, remove a bit of choke proportional to how cold it is, and drive off holding throttle and RPM while driving.  Reach down and bump a little choke off periodically as the engine warms.    Won't be very long until it is all off and the engine won't mind a hand off the throttle to idle normally.

Hard to imagine a 200 RPM idle for this engine.  Mine usually all die if asking below 700 RPM no matter if warm or not.  Better check your tach for proper/correct indication.

If you must practice stationary warm up, get yourself a throttle lock to hold increased idle RPM during such practice.
You won't have to fiddle with the idle knob anymore, having fast idle speed controlled from the bar control.
The earlier model 500/550's had a friction knob under the bars that could be used for this warm up purpose.  Honda discontinued it as people were using it as a cruise control that couldn't be quickly defeated.

My first 74 Cb550 was crashed during this cruise practice, when the driver fell asleep.  The machine drove straight off the road and messed up both driver and bike during the flip and tumble.  Took a lot of fixing to make the bike driveable again, and the driver swore off motorcycles forever after that crash.  I still have that bike...

Cheers,

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline Deltarider

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Re: '76 Honda CB550F: Choke and Starting Issues
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2018, 01:43:20 PM »
Honda does not (and did not) advise to play the choke lever - positioned somewhere below where you can't even see it unless.... (the horror) - whilst riding. It would be absurd. Every experienced bikerider knows how little it takes to negatively influence steering. Honda intended you to have both hands at the bars at all times and, seen the perfect layout of the controls, did great effort to enable this. It's about safety. Choke lever should be down prior to riding. Just do what the manual says.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2018, 08:33:09 AM by Deltarider »
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Offline flatlander

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Re: '76 Honda CB550F: Choke and Starting Issues
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2018, 10:23:45 PM »
yeah and that idle adjust knob that you fiddle with is right where your hand naturally falls while you have two fingers on brake and clutch lever for total control...

i pretty much do what TT describes and it's not hugely dangerous. it takes 2 reaches down to the lever: one to open it a bit more after driving off, one to close it  - done. i don't even need to look down to reach it. of course someone could do it in a stupid way and make themselves crash but then there's no remedy against really stupid people.

Offline jlh3rd

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Re: '76 Honda CB550F: Choke and Starting Issues
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2018, 04:29:08 AM »
yeah and that idle adjust knob that you fiddle with is right where your hand naturally falls while you have two fingers on brake and clutch lever for total control...


I don't know how someone can have two fingers on the brake lever and adjust the idle, but ok.
     people have ignored manuals since forever and lived, and then some have paid a price. In this litigation society a company has to protect itself, even back in 1975, so a manual reflects that.
     So it gets down to personal choice. I'm pretty much a manual guy, my career was based on manuals with possible dire consequences if not understood and followed. As long as someone understands the reason why and why not a manual says what it says, have at it.
     The original poster says he's new at riding, i'd follow the manual.
Deltarider is correct.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2018, 04:32:55 AM by jlh3rd »

Offline calj737

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Re: '76 Honda CB550F: Choke and Starting Issues
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2018, 05:20:07 AM »
yeah and that idle adjust knob that you fiddle with is right where your hand naturally falls while you have two fingers on brake and clutch lever for total control...
I don't know how someone can have two fingers on the brake lever and adjust the idle, but ok.
Use your right ring finger and pinky to control the front brake lever whilst adjusting the idle screw with your thumb and index finger.  ::)
Deltarider is correct.
Anyone who rides a bike WILL have a need to operate the bike with only 1 hand at some point during every ride. Some, will even find occasion to ride without either hand on the bars momentarily. This always needs to be performed under safe conditions, but really, if you can't ride competently, a manual won't save you anyway.
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Offline jlh3rd

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Re: '76 Honda CB550F: Choke and Starting Issues
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2018, 05:50:31 AM »
yeah and that idle adjust knob that you fiddle with is right where your hand naturally falls while you have two fingers on brake and clutch lever for total control...
I don't know how someone can have two fingers on the brake lever and adjust the idle, but ok.
Use your right ring finger and pinky to control the front brake lever whilst adjusting the idle screw with your thumb and index finger.  ::)
Deltarider is correct.
Anyone who rides a bike WILL have a need to operate the bike with only 1 hand at some point during every ride. Some, will even find occasion to ride without either hand on the bars momentarily. This always needs to be performed under safe conditions, but really, if you can't ride competently, a manual won't save you anyway.
the only idle speed knob i know of is mounted on the carb throttle assembly under the tank on the right side. That's what was suggested as to controlling idle when warming up.I wouldn't recommend juggling throttle idle speed, brake ,starting and stopping with one hand while a bike is still warming up to a new rider. His choice though.
he said he's a new rider, so he's not competent, yet, and he's asking for advice. The idea would be to get him to that point.  So, learn the manual, then make your own choices.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2018, 06:38:15 AM by jlh3rd »

Offline Deltarider

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Re: '76 Honda CB550F: Choke and Starting Issues
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2018, 07:25:22 AM »
yeah and that idle adjust knob that you fiddle with is right where your hand naturally falls while you have two fingers on brake and clutch lever for total control...

i pretty much do what TT describes and it's not hugely dangerous. it takes 2 reaches down to the lever: one to open it a bit more after driving off, one to close it  - done. i don't even need to look down to reach it. of course someone could do it in a stupid way and make themselves crash but then there's no remedy against really stupid people.
Flatlander, you've missed the waiting at traffic lights that I mentioned. At a traffic light you will easily notice the idle is still (too) high. But... if you will notice the choke is still (partially) engaged, remains to be seen... Nothing wrong with your method, nothing wrong with mine, but to suggest these old models need any choke whilst riding, is misleading. As a matter of fact I don't know any Japanese bike of that era (up to 1976) with similar chokelever that needs the chokes enroute. A raised idle is all what it takes. Unless your bike has a lean condition. That is then to be adressed.
Let me finish with that I hope I did right to guide a newcomer to what Honda intended. Expressed in the Owner's Manual. It's in my first reply. Can't be missed.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2018, 08:38:54 AM by Deltarider »
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: '76 Honda CB550F: Choke and Starting Issues
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2018, 01:43:53 PM »
...but to suggest these old models need any choke whilst riding, is misleading.

Hard to believe the ignorance proudly professed here.  Still more opinion presented than science.

Internal combustion, carbureted engines have had choke plates for as long as i remember.  There is nothing special about Japanese motors and carburetors that change the laws of physics for them.
Manual choke preceded the automatic chokes, which operated based on temperature.  Cars and bikes need choke to run normally when cold.  Even the 1937 chevy had a manual choke and a throttle knob on the dash.  Latter, engines had a single choke knob the applied choke and throttle simultaneously like some of the latter SOHC4s.  Then automatic chokes became standard.  They apply full choke when cold and gradually remove choke as the engine warms up.  Many engineers are far more clever and aware than many individuals who may have better skills in other matters which don't require an understanding of physics.
Doesn't the CB400 have a fast idle cam on the choke lever?  I know the 77 CB750 models do.  Those chokes are variable in operation, too.

Choke and partial choke enrich the mixture when operated.  Cold engines don't atomize fuel well, and enrichment is required to make power.   They are inefficient when cold, so they can't maintain a fixed idle speed setting of the warm engine.  These are principles based on physics, rather than human emotion driven opinions.
Modern engines use a computer to sense conditions and adjust mixtures appropriate to present conditions.  The computer for the SOHC4 is located 2-3 ft above the seat.  And some of these work far better than the others.  But, it's this computer that is usually capable of adjusting the choke to make the engine comply with throttle demands.

It is no harder to reach down and poke the choke lever than it is to reach down and twiddle the idle knob.  And in some ways easier.

If you tweak the idle knob, you are compensating for lack of engine power with centrifugal inertia.  And it inhibits engine breaking to slow down.

In the end, it's a matter of how well you can learn to operate your machine.  Certainly, if you are not competent enough to poke the choke lever while riding or stopped, then don't do it.  But, I fear for your survival as a competent motorcycle rider.  In some cases, perhaps a culling is a good thing.  As, there are those that simply shouldn't ride a motorcycle as they can never be safe.  Public transport is a safer alternative.

If you chose to waste gas with a stationary warm up run, that's your choice.  But, for 20-30 years I have easily avoided that practice with my CB550s.  Never did I feel unsafe.  And we all know how important "feelings" are...in order to make the machine behave as we feel.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline jlh3rd

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Re: '76 Honda CB550F: Choke and Starting Issues
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2018, 05:54:01 AM »
..

Hard to believe the ignorance proudly professed here.  Still more opinion presented than


only to be exceeded by arrogance professed here sometimes.

the science behind cold/ warm engines and drivability is irrelevant. The original poster was not trying to gather information to write a thesis, he wants to learn to ride his bike safely. He needs to start with the manual.
     Manger, if you're still reading this:
You're a  new rider, so i'm regressing here based on what you asked. You mentioned filling up with gas to help starting. Are you aware of the fuel petcock with the reserve setting? If you are low enough on gas , the " on" position will not let gas get to the carbs. The bike won't start, The petcock would have to be in the " res" position. If you want the proper cold start technique for your 1975 honda and taking your statement that you are new and inexperienced, read the manual or get one.It is a foundation building starting point for any new rider, and better than just opinions. It will remove a lot of your anxiety.
     Your level of competence is fine, for your inexperience level. Don't think you have to used advanced techniques or understand the science of fuel atomization to ride your bike safely. Also, you're on two wheels, not four. The fact that you're asking these questions show your competent. What would be unsafe for you is to try techniques that you may not be ready for. Fiddling with choke levers, and throttle manipulation for idle control while riding just 4 miles may not be something your ready for. Once again, read the manual. I hope this helps you, it doesn't matter what I or anyone else feels is right. It only matters that you gain confidence and reduce your anxiety and become a better rider.
     Pics for you in case you don't have a manual.
     
« Last Edit: November 29, 2018, 05:57:24 AM by jlh3rd »

Offline Deltarider

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Re: '76 Honda CB550F: Choke and Starting Issues
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2018, 07:29:42 AM »
Twotired, you and the laws of physics....  ;D ;D ;D
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Offline flatlander

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Re: '76 Honda CB550F: Choke and Starting Issues
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2018, 12:51:36 PM »
yeah and that idle adjust knob that you fiddle with is right where your hand naturally falls while you have two fingers on brake and clutch lever for total control...

I don't know how someone can have two fingers on the brake lever and adjust the idle, but ok.

that's the point. it's irony  ;)
for those who are worried taking a hand off the bars, maybe putting down the manual for some rider training would be an idea? it's the single best thing you can do for safety and confidence.