Author Topic: 1974 CB550K electrical issues (2)  (Read 1486 times)

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Offline Jim74cb550F

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1974 CB550K electrical issues (2)
« on: November 17, 2018, 07:34:10 PM »
My son and I are restoring a 74 CB550K. We got it running and came across 2 electrical issues

- On the left hand grip there is 2 wires (Red  / Red and Green that come out clean out of the grip, they be pushed back in, but fall out with a little pressure.  The neutral light doesn't come on the tree either I don't know if it is related

- The other issue is... when the bike is running with the headlight off, both signal lights work as they should (blink with audible alert). When the headlamp is on, the Front turn signals both light up, the rear ones don't. When I activate one of the signals the rear light for that side comes on, fronts stay solid, no blinking or audible alert). I appreciate any ideas the forum might have to give me a starting point.

Thanks
JIM 

Offline bryanj

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Re: 1974 CB550K electrical issues (2)
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2018, 02:38:35 AM »
If the two loose wires come from the bracket the clutch lever is on rather than inside the switch they are part of the "starter safety interlock system" which is supposed to stop the electric starter working unless EITHER the clutch is pulled in OR the ñeutral light is on. Neutral light not working could be bulb, loose connection or neutral switch under the sprocket cover. Indicator problem is probably a bad ground inside the headlamp shell.
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

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Offline calj737

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Re: 1974 CB550K electrical issues (2)
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2018, 05:28:27 AM »
Odd. I don't recall the '74 550 having that RED wire on the LH switch pod...

The GREEN/RED striped wire is the NEUTRAL wire from the switch. If your NEU light is not illuminating, it is very likely due to the loose connection you described. I am unaware of a single, solid RED wire on the bike other than a lead from FUSE block to KEY. I suspect you have non-stock controls.
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: 1974 CB550K electrical issues (2)
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2018, 07:22:50 AM »
My son and I are restoring a 74 CB550K. We got it running and came across 2 electrical issues

- On the left hand grip there is 2 wires (Red  / Red and Green that come out clean out of the grip, they be pushed back in, but fall out with a little pressure.  The neutral light doesn't come on the tree either I don't know if it is related

Does it need to be said the no wires should come loose and disconnect themselves?  The 74 model bike came originally with wires routed inside the bars, exiting in the center.  No exposed wires at the grip controls.  Connection for bar controls were made inside the headlight bucket.  Not surprising if you have creative mods done to your bike.  But, we'll need better descriptions of these changes for us to help you.  Particularly if you have components that aren't meeting Honda color code standards.  You can check this with a wire diagram and noting defined connection colors that do or don't match with what your bike has.

- The other issue is... when the bike is running with the headlight off, both signal lights work as they should (blink with audible alert). When the headlamp is on, the Front turn signals both light up, the rear ones don't. When I activate one of the signals the rear light for that side comes on, fronts stay solid, no blinking or audible alert). I appreciate any ideas the forum might have to give me a starting point.

The US model bike had front run lights that came on with the headlight.  Due to many laws, rear run lights had to be red, with signaling allowed to be amber.  Rear amber run lights were a violation.  So, the fronts on this model had dual element bulbs, one element for run, the other for signal flashing.  The rear bulbs were single element bulbs which only flashed as turn signals.  You'll note the light doesn't flash bright to dim, but rather on to off.  This is because the run light element is disabled when flashing is selected.  Clever switch, that.

If they don't flash, someone may have switched bulbs to easily available ones that fit the socket, but draw more power.  As the original flasher unit was voltage sensitive, increasing the load, effects the flash rate, as will low battery voltage.  If the 1034 front bulbs have been exchanged for 1157 (higher wattage) and the rear 1078 have been exchanged with 1156 (higher wattage) the stock flasher unit likely won't play well with them.  Get the proper bulbs or replace the flasher unit with a non voltage sensitive type.  Could be that they will flash with the bike revved up a bit so as to keep the battery topped up in charge.
I use this "feature" on my bikes to inform me of the battery charge status.  If the blinking slows or stops, I know the battery is discharging, and I have to keep the revs up.  An interpretive voltmeter, if you like.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Deltarider

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Re: 1974 CB550K electrical issues (2)
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2018, 07:34:00 AM »
Jim74cb550F, compare your engine- and framenumber with those listed in the first few pages of the various CB550 Parts Lists. http://www.honda4fun.com/materiale-documentazione-tecnica/parts-list/parts-list-cb550 For once and for all you'll know what model you have and what you can expect. After determining the model, go to the Honda Shop Manual CB500-CB550 and look for the appropiate wiring scheme there: https://www.classiccycles.org/media//DIR_1653304/DIR_1653404/DIR_1653507/ecc6759db0a214d5ffff8823ffffe41e.pdf
« Last Edit: November 18, 2018, 07:38:19 AM by Deltarider »
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Offline bryanj

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Re: 1974 CB550K electrical issues (2)
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2018, 11:56:32 AM »
I have seen aftermarket clutch starter switches with red wire
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline Jim74cb550F

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Re: 1974 CB550K electrical issues (2)
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2018, 04:13:33 PM »
Thank you for all the leads, it gives me some good starting points. I am a novice period, even more so at the electrical stuff. I got the neutral light to come on (cleaned the bulb connections). The left signal light unit is HM-14QB-T. the main wires travel through the handlebars,  but there is a small black conduit that contains a red / red / green wire to a spot right by the clutch. So that makes sense about how that would be a safety feature. I have a CB550K0 (1974). I have the Clymers Manual for it, the manual does have a wiring diagram, trying to figure it out. Thanks again for all your help!!!

 I'll update as I go.

Offline bryanj

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Re: 1974 CB550K electrical issues (2)
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2018, 01:21:23 AM »
You have to fit that switch from the lever side and feed all the plastic cable through the hole. The indicater number you quote sounds like the number on the outside of the casing whilst a previous poster was quoting bulb numbers
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline Jim74cb550F

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Re: 1974 CB550K electrical issues (2)
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2018, 06:33:19 PM »
Making progress... sort of... I removed the headlight and cleaned all the grounds and electrical connections in there, I wanted to do the same for the Turn signal relay, I located it behind the left side cover. Grey wire / Black wire connected, but the dark green ground wire is unattached. The issue is there is no place to attach it, I would appreciate your guys thoughts, thank you , in advance. and for now same issue still exists. When head lamp is on, signals stay on steady, no flashing or audible sound. when headlamp is off, signals blink with audible beep.

Thanks Jim

Offline Robbo

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Re: 1974 CB550K electrical issues (2)
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2018, 07:38:02 PM »
Making progress... sort of... I removed the headlight and cleaned all the grounds and electrical connections in there, I wanted to do the same for the Turn signal relay, I located it behind the left side cover. Grey wire / Black wire connected, but the dark green ground wire is unattached. The issue is there is no place to attach it, I would appreciate your guys thoughts, thank you , in advance. and for now same issue still exists. When head lamp is on, signals stay on steady, no flashing or audible sound. when headlamp is off, signals blink with audible beep.

Thanks Jim
Jim, it sounds like the bike has a 2-pronged relay when it should be a 3-pronged unit.  Can you please post a picture so we can see what you are dealing with?


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Offline Jim74cb550F

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Re: 1974 CB550K electrical issues (2)
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2018, 07:41:32 PM »
An update on my last. I re read some of the posts. Two Tired mentioned he increased the rpms to make things work. My CB550K idles about 1K RPM's. No signal flashing or signal buzzer. When I increase it to 2k RPM's they flash and I have the buzzer. I am glad they work, but now suspect I must have some voltage/ charging issue? Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks
Jim

Offline Jim74cb550F

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Re: 1974 CB550K electrical issues (2)
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2018, 07:52:08 PM »
Here is a pic of the Turn Switch Relay ( I hope) you can see the ground next to it, no place to attach it. Thank you for your reply

Offline TwoTired

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Re: 1974 CB550K electrical issues (2)
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2018, 11:20:47 PM »
Is your battery fully charged? ( charge from off the bike)
Report voltage at beginning of testing.
Have you monitored the voltage at the battery a 1k rpm increments from idle to 5k rpm?

Next do the same voltage measurement on the black wire to the vreg in those same rpm increments.

The original two prong flasher dies wear with use. If the voltages in the above test turn out acceptable.  You can replace it or slightly tweak it internally to make it flash faster.

I use the stock flasher to give an indication of battery charge status, and rev the motor to keep it flashing and keep the battery from depleting at idle, which they all do in stock form with lighting on.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline bryanj

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Re: 1974 CB550K electrical issues (2)
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2018, 01:17:43 AM »
US  relays are only 2 wire and the green goes nowhere. It is used in other markets like UK.
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline Jim74cb550F

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Re: 1974 CB550K electrical issues (2)
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2018, 02:27:23 PM »
Thank you for the leads. I am going to measure the voltage in the next day or two. I’ll keep you posted. - Jim

Offline Jim74cb550F

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Re: 1974 CB550K electrical issues (2)
« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2018, 03:04:16 PM »
I hooked up the volt mtr. Positive battery terminal and headlight ground. I got the following readings

Pre start - 12.32
1K - 12.66
2K - 14.10
3K - 13.96
4K - 13.96
5K - 13.96

I am I novice so I apologize... I went to check the black wire going into the voltage regulator, but I do not know where it is on the bike. I found a bunch of the electronics under the left side cover. Rectifier / fuses / turn signal relay etc. but nothing with a black / white / and green ground wires.

I would welcome any thought if I have an electrical issue or it is what it is.

Thanks
Jim

Offline calj737

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Re: 1974 CB550K electrical issues (2)
« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2018, 03:08:41 PM »
The Regulator is also there under the left cover. It’s a silver “cap like” object, upper left of the panel. You might just be able to pick out the 3 colored decals above it for Green, Black and White.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline TwoTired

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Re: 1974 CB550K electrical issues (2)
« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2018, 03:57:16 PM »
Your battery is low.  (about 60%)  This will effect the flash rate at idle where is it depleting further.  And explains why it flashes when you rev the alternator.

Get yourself a small battery charger and start with a topped up battery.  Or, run the motor at 3000 RPM for a couple hours with all the lights off.

You still may have voltage loss in the connectors and components, which would make the voltage getting to the black wires and flasher unit lower than desired.

You might consider turning off the lighting when it isn't necessary.  Adds drain to the battery during idle.

Cheers,+
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline bryanj

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Re: 1974 CB550K electrical issues (2)
« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2018, 04:01:49 PM »
Those numbers show the charging system is working and in time would fully charge the battery as long as you are running without lights on, but it would be better to start with a fully charged battery just do not be tempted to use a "big" car battery charger as the charge current is too high for the tiny (in comparison) bike battery.
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline Jim74cb550F

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Re: 1974 CB550K electrical issues (2)
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2018, 02:53:10 PM »
Thank you for all of your advice. I got a new Turn Signal Relay today and installed it on the bike. All works perfectly now. Even fits in the rubber sleeve like the original.

Our last intentional project on the bike is the exhaust. We are changing the 4 to 2 pipes we bought it with,  to either the original 4 to 4 set up ( if not to much $$$) or a 4 to 1 like the 75 CB550F had.

If anyone has a lead on reasonable priced 4 to 4 i would appreciate the lead.

regardless thanks again, exhaust questions sure to be forthcoming

Jim