Author Topic: '76 CB550F: Lethargic and Sluggish; running rich?  (Read 2111 times)

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Offline magner

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'76 CB550F: Lethargic and Sluggish; running rich?
« on: April 04, 2019, 05:23:51 PM »
Hey guys, still dialing in the ride of my CB550F and I recently pulled the plugs to find them sooty as a stick of carbon. As I understand it, this means I am running super rich, which would explain alot of the issues I have noticed: lethargic and sluggish acceleration, rough idle, terrible exhaust smell, choke has no effect, etc. Today I was going about 40mph and shifted into 3rd, and when I throttled it revved up but went no faster at all. I realized that I really started to notice the sluggish acceleration after I put in the baffle on the stupid muffler the PO installed, so I just pulled that baffle out to see it was absolutely covered in carbon.

I have new plugs and pods that I will install this weekend, and I have Carpy's Yoshimura muffler on the way (about 2 weeks out). I assume I have to rejet, but I want to wait until the new exhaust and pods are on so I can see how it runs with those on first. I am hoping removing the baffle helps a bit until I can rejet. I am still learning about how to rejet, but I assume the weird lack of acceleration in 3rd gear has some clue as to which jet I will need to replace? I am hoping that this throttle issue is because of the richness, and not a different issue. Any wisdom would be helpful!

Cheers,
Andy

Offline HondaMan

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Re: '76 CB550F: Lethargic and Sluggish; running rich?
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2019, 05:36:47 PM »
Hey guys, still dialing in the ride of my CB550F and I recently pulled the plugs to find them sooty as a stick of carbon. As I understand it, this means I am running super rich, which would explain alot of the issues I have noticed: lethargic and sluggish acceleration, rough idle, terrible exhaust smell, choke has no effect, etc. Today I was going about 40mph and shifted into 3rd, and when I throttled it revved up but went no faster at all. I realized that I really started to notice the sluggish acceleration after I put in the baffle on the stupid muffler the PO installed, so I just pulled that baffle out to see it was absolutely covered in carbon.

I have new plugs and pods that I will install this weekend, and I have Carpy's Yoshimura muffler on the way (about 2 weeks out). I assume I have to rejet, but I want to wait until the new exhaust and pods are on so I can see how it runs with those on first. I am hoping removing the baffle helps a bit until I can rejet. I am still learning about how to rejet, but I assume the weird lack of acceleration in 3rd gear has some clue as to which jet I will need to replace? I am hoping that this throttle issue is because of the richness, and not a different issue. Any wisdom would be helpful!

Cheers,
Andy

Don't use pod air filters: it will make the bike run rich. If you have the OEM airbox, put it back on, then get it working that way first. Otherwise you have a real pile of issues, there...
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Offline magner

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Re: '76 CB550F: Lethargic and Sluggish; running rich?
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2019, 05:49:37 PM »
I don't have the original airbox as the pods were put in several owners before me... they did rejet for them, but obviously it doesn't seem to be correct. I do plan on keeping the pods because in all honesty I really love my bike and the cafe aesthetic that it has. Is it really impossible to get a bike with pods to run well?

Offline HondaMan

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Re: '76 CB550F: Lethargic and Sluggish; running rich?
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2019, 06:18:41 PM »
You will always struggle with pods, simply because they destroy the ability of the carbs to mix fuel and air. Instead, it ends up feeding the engine with wet, un-aerated fuel.

The carbs work like this: there are 3 pressures zones in the carb. The bowl is at highest (atmospheric) pressure, due to it having the little breather tubes (which should be routed up underneath the seat, or at the very least, over to the back side of the [missing] airbox where air is still and quiet). The bell area of the carbs (where the pods are now mounted) have slightly lower air pressure, when a proper airbox is used. This air is at a pressure lower than the bowl pressure (reasons explained shortly). The lowest pressure is underneath the slide, on the engine side if it.

When the intake stroke happens (engine sucking in air-fuel mix) it creates a low pressure underneath the slide as sucks in the fuel that is laying there from the previous engine intake cycle. Then, the pressure in this area is lowest and the high pressure in the bowl starts pushing fuel up into the mainjet. As it reaches the emulsifier tubes, the air from the bell area of the carb pushes its way into the emulsifier outer chamber and bubbles the fuel as it rises toward the carb throat. This causes it to spray upward, against the bottom of the slide, and wets the area. The next engine intake stroke sucks this mixture into the engine, and this cycle starts again.

When pods are used (or improperly-designed velocity stacks), the bell area of the carb is at the same pressure as the bowl. This means that when the engine sucks in the fuel, the bowl pushes fuel up, but the emulsifier, at the same pressure as the bowl, fights the flow of the fuel. The result is often a lean mix until the upper RPM ranges are reached, at which point there is much more steady vacuum in the carb throat and whatever fuel reaches the area is caught in a turbulent situation, so it aerates somewhat better - but, not as well as if it was first aerated in the emulsifier, so power is less.

The results of pods is always the same story: at engine speeds around 1500-2500 RPM the engine runs very, very 'rich' (which in actuality is a proper amount of fuel, but not aerated, so it won't burn), fouling plugs and acting poorly (and it stinks of gas...), and at around 3000-3500 RPM it starts to improve, but then, as it is also leaning out the mixture here it feels like it is 'falling on its face', so people try to increase the mainjet to stop this sensation (people like to call this "rejetting for pods"). This just further increase the richness to a higher RPM, like 5000, and unless the bike is ridden very hard, all the time, the plugs will foul from far too much fuel.

I have lost count of how many bikes I have magically "fixed" by either removing the pods and reinstalling a properly-designed airbox, or in some cases I have literally blocked off 80% of the pod faces with duct tape (or other media) and put the stock mainjets back in. The bike suddenly behaves again, runs normally (or nearly so), and stops fouling plugs every week.

It's just physics! There must be 3 different pressures in these carbs to make them work: pods only allow for 2.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline Spanner 1

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Re: '76 CB550F: Lethargic and Sluggish; running rich?
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2019, 06:25:44 PM »
Hondaman's wealth of knowledge for the win !.... we are so lucky to have his advice so freely given on this Forum for years and years  :)
« Last Edit: April 04, 2019, 06:30:14 PM by Spanner 1 »
If your sure it's a carb problem; it's ignition,
If your sure it's an ignition problem; it's carbs....

Online jgger

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Re: '76 CB550F: Lethargic and Sluggish; running rich?
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2019, 06:43:22 PM »
+mucho×mucho!👌👍^^^^
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Offline magner

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Re: '76 CB550F: Lethargic and Sluggish; running rich?
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2019, 06:45:16 PM »
Thanks, I understood some of that! Haha but really I will have to study that a bit more later to feel like I fully understand it, but I get the gist. Are you able to comment on if the problems I'm having are entirely because of the pods? As in could I improve the situation for now at least until I can get an airbox in?

Offline Spanner 1

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Re: '76 CB550F: Lethargic and Sluggish; running rich?
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2019, 07:41:31 PM »
Thing is Magner that most folks on here can give loads of advice about carbs etc. when coupled with the stock airbox/ exhaust. Pods and 4-into-1 and your solutions are narrowed. Some on this Forum claim lots of success with pods and I hope they chip in with advice , but the CB 750 carburation was designed starting at the opening of the airbox and ending at the tip of each 4 pipes ! Pod riders claim great performance maybe without ever riding a stock bike for comparison ;)
If your sure it's a carb problem; it's ignition,
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Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: '76 CB550F: Lethargic and Sluggish; running rich?
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2019, 03:17:44 AM »
Yes, it’s much easier to get the bike dialed in and running well with the air box and stock exhaust, but you’re experiencing issues that can be eliminated, even with pods.

I don’t know the history of the bike, so if I were to come across this right now I would first do the 3k mile maintenance procedures outlined in the manual (tappet clearance, cam chain adjustment, ignition timing, spark plug gap, etc.)

Some pictures of the carbs and exhaust and whole bike would help.

What spark plugs are you using? Getting a good spark on them when you crank the motor while holding the plug against the case while still plugged into the plug wire?

What jets are installed? They’re stamped with a number. Pilot jet and main jet. What’s your mixture screw setting (number of turns out from lightly seated).

You will have to go into the carbs and check the needle position. Since it seems the PO altered them you need to know what you’re dealing with.

Also, have you removed and thoroughly cleaned the carbs? Removed all jets and emulsion tubes and cleaned ALL holes with compressed air and carb cleaner?

Float height is also something that should be checked. Search the “clear tube method” of adjusting floats. The fuel level should be about 4mm from the bowl seam.

I had pods and a 4-1 exhaust on my 550k and it ran very well. My settings were as follows:
110 main jets
45 pilot jets (stock jets would probably be fine for you here)
Needle position one notch down from stock. So for mine it was the 4th notch from the top.

This should get you in a place where you’re not fowling plugs and running ok.

Offline magner

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Re: '76 CB550F: Lethargic and Sluggish; running rich?
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2019, 11:04:31 AM »
Awesome I was hoping to hear that! I just got a new points plate installed and timed, as well as carbs synced. This weekend I will put in new plugs and pods (plugs very fouled I’m sure that’s not helping). I will try and find out the jet sizes and report back, but the PO took off the carbs and did a thorough clean (sent me pics and everything) the day before I picked it up. As a newbie, pulling off the 4 carbs has been very daunting but I guess now is the time to learn! I will be installing the Yoshimura replica exhaust that Carpy makes in about a week or so with the baffle, so I suppose I can’t dial anything in until then.

Offline DaveBarbier

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'76 CB550F: Lethargic and Sluggish; running rich?
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2019, 11:29:15 AM »
With out an air box it’s pretty easy to remove the carbs. What I used to do with my 550 was remove the 8 10mm nuts holding on the manifolds to the head and work the carbs off the studs instead of trying to remove and put on the very stiff rubber insulators. But if you’re not a weakling like me then you should be ok.

I would NOT trust any PO to clean carbs right before he’s going to sell them, hell, I even wouldn’t trust a shop. I would verify with my own eyes so I’m not going down a rabbit hole. Vintage bikes require help to get going if they haven’t been well taken care of. Get used to bring it to a shop you trust and spend money if you aren’t willing to dive in. Carb work isn’t difficult, pull them off and see what you see. If you don’t have a manual get one. You can also find the manual in the downloads section for your bike. Do some searching and you’ll find it.

Also, you said the carbs synced and timing set, but you didn’t mention the other maintenance stuff I talked about. Each thing is different and has to be checked. It’s outlined in the manual.

Offline magner

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Re: '76 CB550F: Lethargic and Sluggish; running rich?
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2019, 03:37:05 PM »
I will have to wait until this coming weekend to try and get the carbs off and get you that information about the jets, needle, and mixture screw. I will also check tappet clearance, but I'm not sure how confident I feel about checking the cam chain tension! Hopefully on Saturday I can upload some detailed photos and in depth information about the carb tuning.

I put new pods and new NGK D7EA plugs in before taking her out for my first canyon ride on Angels Crest HWY, and it was amazing! I didn't notice any distinct issue with the revs climbing and not going anywhere like before, but I think its still probably sluggish overall in terms of acceleration... The bike overall felt good in the upper revs (kept it around 5K through the canyons and pushed up to 80mph on my first time on the highway), but I now have a tough time idling for the first 10 minutes of riding. I noticed on my way to work this morning that it would idle correctly for the first 10 seconds when waiting at a light, but then it would die if I didn't feather the throttle. While feathering the throttle I also noticed that it would pop a bit of white smoke out of the pods every once in awhile! Super annoying because I basically could never take my hand off the throttle, and had to keep constant slight throttle.

I attached some photos of the carbs that the PO sent before I came to pick up the bike.

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: '76 CB550F: Lethargic and Sluggish; running rich?
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2019, 02:19:53 AM »
Nice bike, glad you posted pictures. Seat hump looks similar to some of the stuff Dustin Kott makes. I was expecting something old and more typical, not something this clean and well taken care of (regarding aesthetics).

It could be something as easy as some clogged jets from a dirty tank. If it was working better before and then all of a sudden performance dropped, I’d probably steer you in that direction. But definitely check the maintenance stuff now and beginning of every season.

Cam chain adjustment is outlined in the manual. You have one?

Offline calj737

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Re: '76 CB550F: Lethargic and Sluggish; running rich?
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2019, 03:32:11 AM »
Many of your issues described from your canyon ride can easily be resolved by:
* Checking the fuel height with the carbs on the bench
* Checking the valve adjustments once the ignition timing is properly set
* Checking the cam chain for proper adjustment
* Then, once the carbs are clean and reinstalled, warm up the bike, then let it idle. Set the idle to 1,100-1,200. You should have no more issues with it dying out.

Puffs of white smoke indicate a hot-running engine, consistent with a bike running pods that is running very lean, not rich. Stumbling and struggling for power, especially in the upper rev bands says lean, again not rich. A combination of pods and the Yoshi style 4:1 exhaust typically see a jump in the main jet to a 105, the needle clip raised 1 position, then the air screws enriched. I've never heard of or experienced a pod bike running rich... that's a new one on me.  ???
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Offline magner

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Re: '76 CB550F: Lethargic and Sluggish; running rich?
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2019, 11:06:07 AM »
Puffs of white smoke indicate a hot-running engine, consistent with a bike running pods that is running very lean, not rich.

I know pods typically lean out since they obviously introduce more air, but I am not sure if the PO that rejetted did so correctly and may have overcompensated. Here's a few pics of my old plugs before I installed new ones. I'm no expert, but to me these really looked carbon fouled which I understood to mean I was running very rich. I read up on the symptoms of running rich they all described my bike very well (see starting post of this thread). This was all while I had the baffle/silencer in the end of my exhaust, which I heard would effect fuel/air mixture, so I pulled that out a few days ago before the canyon ride and put in new plugs and pods. I'll pull the new plugs tonight to check them! I will get to all the adjustments you described this weekend when I pull the carbs, thank you!

Offline magner

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Re: '76 CB550F: Lethargic and Sluggish; running rich?
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2019, 11:13:16 AM »
Nice bike, glad you posted pictures. Seat hump looks similar to some of the stuff Dustin Kott makes. I was expecting something old and more typical, not something this clean and well taken care of (regarding aesthetics).

Thanks haha, I'm glad you no longer assume the worst of me! I am an architectural designer, so naturally I am very picky about aesthetics... The bike still has alot of things I will change to tune the aesthetics. I've always been inspired by Dustin Kott and I love his seats (actually just saw him blow by me on one of his bikes in Venice last weekend). The PO made the hump in a very similar fashion to Kott's, but clearly didn't have a very keen eye for lines as the hump really bumps up looking far too bulbous. I am considering taking it to the shop and cutting it down and rewelding it to be much more refined.

Offline calj737

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Re: '76 CB550F: Lethargic and Sluggish; running rich?
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2019, 07:26:32 PM »
Puffs of white smoke indicate a hot-running engine, consistent with a bike running pods that is running very lean, not rich.

I know pods typically lean out since they obviously introduce more air, but I am not sure if the PO that rejetted did so correctly and may have overcompensated. Here's a few pics of my old plugs before I installed new ones. I'm no expert, but to me these really looked carbon fouled which I understood to mean I was running very rich. I read up on the symptoms of running rich they all described my bike very well (see starting post of this thread). This was all while I had the baffle/silencer in the end of my exhaust, which I heard would effect fuel/air mixture, so I pulled that out a few days ago before the canyon ride and put in new plugs and pods. I'll pull the new plugs tonight to check them! I will get to all the adjustments you described this weekend when I pull the carbs, thank you!
Picture 1 looks more like a weak spark than too much fuel. Dry and sooty from the look in the picture. Picture 2 looks oily on the threads, but decently clean at the insulator. Neither is conclusive really.

You need to perform proper plug chops, not inspect after a ride. Riding introduces variable throttle positions. You need to assess IDLE, WOT, and at least 1/4 and 1/2 throttle. Start with IDLE and a new set of plugs on a warmed up motor. Then do a WOT chop. Then makes some adjustment decisions.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis