Author Topic: Keyster slide needles  (Read 1952 times)

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Offline cb750f-2010656

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Keyster slide needles
« on: December 14, 2018, 06:17:01 PM »
I know, I'm being a pest.  But when it comes to being a pest, I'm the best!  ;D I'm pretty sure I have keyster needles in my '76 F1.  I read on another topic they are way too lean from idle to 1/4 throttle.  Can I cure this with bigger pilot jets and raising the needles?  Or will it go rich at some point?  I'm trying to gather as much info as I can and buy what I need to buy before I really get started.  Gonna buy a borescope tomorrow and have a look at the cylinders too.  When I get it running again I have a leakdown tester to hook up to it as well.  Thanks a ton in advance for your support!!

Also to note, I have a long, bell-end Jardine slip-on installed that is really quiet.  Any recommendations will be greatly appreciated!
« Last Edit: December 14, 2018, 06:20:20 PM by cb750f-2010656 »
76 CB750F (Old Girl)
85 Rebel 250 (Little Girl)
96 Fleetwood Brougham (USS Great White)

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Keyster slide needles
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2018, 07:00:38 PM »
I know, I'm being a pest.  But when it comes to being a pest, I'm the best!  ;D I'm pretty sure I have keyster needles in my '76 F1.  I read on another topic they are way too lean from idle to 1/4 throttle.  Can I cure this with bigger pilot jets and raising the needles?  Or will it go rich at some point?  I'm trying to gather as much info as I can and buy what I need to buy before I really get started.  Gonna buy a borescope tomorrow and have a look at the cylinders too.  When I get it running again I have a leakdown tester to hook up to it as well.  Thanks a ton in advance for your support!!

Also to note, I have a long, bell-end Jardine slip-on installed that is really quiet.  Any recommendations will be greatly appreciated!

The Keyster needles are too large at their base, which causes the lean-ness issue. Although it tapers to the same length, the taper is therefore more progressive (i.e., "faster") as it reaches 3/4 throttle (which is the range you will most likely be using).

The difficulties begin where the idle jets falls off before the needle taper thins out enough to make the mixture more consistent. There's some things you can try and that will help a little, provided you have a stock airbox. If not, all bets are 'off', as they say...

If you have roundtop carbs:
1. Increase the float bowl depth: instead of 26mm float depth, go to 24mm. This may cause a tendency for the carbs to overflow when the bike is on its sidestand, so remember to turn off the gas when parked. My K2 has been set this way since 1973 (using all Keihin parts, though). It increase the richness between 2000-3000 RPM.

2. Step up the mainjet a 5-size. Also use Keihin Jets: the Keyster jets run quite lean, and their tapers and numbers do not match up to Keihin's values. For example, their #110 mainjet runs more like a #103 in Keihin at 26mm bowl depth, and #107 Keihin equivalent at 26mm depth. The non-Keihin jets have differing angles where the fuel meets the metering hole. and the hole size is not the same, either.

3. Adjust the idle air screws outward slightly. I'd suggest trying 1-1/8 turns out instead of 1 turn, for starters.

4. Retard the spark advance rate a little bit. This is most easily accomplished by cutting off 1/2 turn of one of the spark advancer's springs, bending the new end outward to reattach to the weight. This will let the intake vacuum raise slightly by reducing the spitback at low engine speeds, helping to increase the fuel loading at a given throttle setting. You can preliminarily test this part by just retarding the timing plate a few degrees to see how it works, but it will lose some full-advance angle this way in the end. Many city-only riders have found this works well when combined with lower-octane (regular) gas, leaving it retarded all the time for cleaner sparkplugs. Somewhere in between "T" and "F" at idle speeds is appropriate. I have also run my own 750 with stronger springs since 1976, with terrific results!

See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline cb750f-2010656

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Re: Keyster slide needles
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2018, 07:18:23 PM »
Thanks for the great info, Hondaman!  I did forget to mention, though, I installed the keyster supplied needle jets as well.  Will that change things?  Sorry I didn't say so before.
76 CB750F (Old Girl)
85 Rebel 250 (Little Girl)
96 Fleetwood Brougham (USS Great White)

Offline cb750f-2010656

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Re: Keyster slide needles
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2018, 07:44:47 PM »
I'm full of questions this evening.  Nothing to do but smoke cigarettes and think about my bike.  Are the K&L Supply parts any better?
76 CB750F (Old Girl)
85 Rebel 250 (Little Girl)
96 Fleetwood Brougham (USS Great White)

Offline cb750f-2010656

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Re: Keyster slide needles
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2018, 09:46:00 PM »
Man, I think I read on this site somewhere about reproduction slide needles that had the keihin star and correct part number, but still had the wrong taper.  I can't locate the topic tonight to verify
..  Could someone confirm or debunk this?  Thanks.  Trying to track down some OEM slide needs and needle jets #27201.  AwesomeCB so awesomely gave me one needle.  Three needles and 4 needle jets to go!  Gonna order some real keihin main and pilot jets
76 CB750F (Old Girl)
85 Rebel 250 (Little Girl)
96 Fleetwood Brougham (USS Great White)

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Keyster slide needles
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2018, 07:15:28 PM »
If your carbs are the 08(x)a series, the needle is #271307 or #271301, which is slightly leaner below 2500 RPM than the #27201. This is done to match the late-opening cam of the "F" engine. The carbs will also have little strainers on their fuel valve seats. The #27201 will work, but you might want to use a #37.5 pilot jet so the idle air screw range is restored. Otherwise, turn the air screws in about 1/8 turn and think of that as your "1-turn nominal" starting point, instead of actually 1 turn.

The K&L parts I have seen in the last few years are Keyster parts.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline cb750f-2010656

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Re: Keyster slide needles
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2018, 09:30:02 PM »
I have the 064A carbs.  Hondaman, are these correct for my '76 CB750F?  I have tracked down the 27201 needles and seats, as well as Keihin #40's and #105's.  About $150 worth of parts.
76 CB750F (Old Girl)
85 Rebel 250 (Little Girl)
96 Fleetwood Brougham (USS Great White)

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Keyster slide needles
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2018, 02:11:01 PM »
I have the 064A carbs.  Hondaman, are these correct for my '76 CB750F?  I have tracked down the 27201 needles and seats, as well as Keihin #40's and #105's.  About $150 worth of parts.

IIRC, the 064a is the non-emission-controlled version of the 069a. The latter was widely found in the western US (CA) and around the northeast, like New York area. The 069a often came with #37.5 (labelled #38) pilot jets for a leaner burn with the late-opening 'F' cam (0 degrees BTC intake cycle). The 064a usually has #40 pilot jets.

It will run with the 27201 needles, but see my notes above: if you can find the #271301, #271302, or #271307 needles, it will idle better and won't have a 'rich spot' at about 1800-2200 RPM that ends to make it feel like it is falling flat just below 3000 RPM. The plugs will stay cleaner, too.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline cb750f-2010656

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Re: Keyster slide needles
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2018, 02:45:14 PM »
Thank you, Hondaman!  The needles I already have are stamped 271307.  Would keyster needles be stamped like this?

76 CB750F (Old Girl)
85 Rebel 250 (Little Girl)
96 Fleetwood Brougham (USS Great White)

Offline cb750f-2010656

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Re: Keyster slide needles
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2018, 02:52:40 PM »
From what I could see in the borescope my cylinders look great!  No scoring, corrosion, plenty of crosshatching.  A couple of the spark plugs didn't really want to come out. I probably let some crud get on the threads.  I reckon I should go ahead and at least unload the top end, check out the threads, change the leaky head gasket, let the machine shop look at the valves.  I still want to hear it run and do a leakdown test while it's hot. 

I have to change the points and probably the condensers because the ones on it are very cheap.  I think they are part of the problem.
76 CB750F (Old Girl)
85 Rebel 250 (Little Girl)
96 Fleetwood Brougham (USS Great White)

Offline cb750f-2010656

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Re: Keyster slide needles
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2018, 03:16:43 PM »
Also, I did notice piston #3 had no carbon build up like the rest of them.  I wonder why?  I have long suspected something isn't right with the coils.  Just a gut feeling.  They are cheap enough I could just throw some on there anyway.
76 CB750F (Old Girl)
85 Rebel 250 (Little Girl)
96 Fleetwood Brougham (USS Great White)

Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Keyster slide needles
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2018, 03:57:31 PM »
One difference in the 75/76 F carbs was the needle/jet. If you look up the part number you will find it is a -392 number and not a -300 which tells you there IS a difference.
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Keyster slide needles
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2018, 07:18:11 PM »
Thank you, Hondaman!  The needles I already have are stamped 271307.  Would keyster needles be stamped like this?

No, Keyster needles are 3 or 4 letters/digits. Those are Keihin needles!
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Keyster slide needles
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2018, 07:22:34 PM »
Also, I did notice piston #3 had no carbon build up like the rest of them.  I wonder why?  I have long suspected something isn't right with the coils.  Just a gut feeling.  They are cheap enough I could just throw some on there anyway.

That usually indicates 1 of 2 things:
1. poor compression, letting turbulence pass the rings and wash the piston crown.
2. leaky valve(s), causes the same thing. The leaking one (if just one) will make the piston crown cleaner by it.

If you pull the head: contact me before reassembly for some extra-thick O-rings for the oil passages at the head gasket. All head gaskets today are 1.0mm thick (at least), where the OEM version was 0.8mm thick. So, the O-rings that were originally 2.4x11mm in the oil passages are now too thin, and this causes oil leaks 100% of the time. There is a Parker number that translates to 2.62x10.77mm thick, works great. I have dozens of them...
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline cb750f-2010656

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Re: Keyster slide needles
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2018, 07:36:20 PM »
That's great to hear about my needles!  I wonder if the seats match. I'll get the right jets and see how it runs after I get some points.  I would like to see if adjusting the cam chain made it any quieter.  I'll be in touch with you, Hondaman about those o-rings.
I need to get a copy of your book, too.  I figure  if I'm pulling the motor, I might as well split the  cases.
I barely have a 2nd gear, but I have a used transmission in a suitcase in my closet.  If I need a timing chain it'd be easier to just pass it over bthe end if the crank.  I had better save up some  cash first.  Thanks, everyone!  I'll be back in the projects forum for the overhaul!
76 CB750F (Old Girl)
85 Rebel 250 (Little Girl)
96 Fleetwood Brougham (USS Great White)

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Keyster slide needles
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2018, 06:16:29 PM »
That's great to hear about my needles!  I wonder if the seats match. I'll get the right jets and see how it runs after I get some points.  I would like to see if adjusting the cam chain made it any quieter.  I'll be in touch with you, Hondaman about those o-rings.
I need to get a copy of your book, too.  I figure  if I'm pulling the motor, I might as well split the  cases.
I barely have a 2nd gear, but I have a used transmission in a suitcase in my closet.  If I need a timing chain it'd be easier to just pass it over bthe end if the crank.  I had better save up some  cash first.  Thanks, everyone!  I'll be back in the projects forum for the overhaul!

The 'weak' 2nd gear comes from one of (or all 3 of) these things:
1. Most common: worn dogs on the C5 gear, with corresponding worn slots in the C2 gear. These can be reconditioned.
2. A bent "L" shift fork. This comes most often from the bike having fallen on the left side and the shifter hitting something on the way down: I call this the "car-tapped-the-parked-bike-in-the-garage" accident.
3. (This is rare, but happens) a lazy-left-hand shifter who consistently shifted without waiting a split second for the clutch to disengage (some call it "crowding the shift") when doing the frequent 1-N-2 shift in traffic. Poor oils, for a long time, can also cause it: this wears the shift fork and does not fully engage these 2 gears as the result. Reconditioning the gears into 'back-cut' or 'pull-cut' versions will help, even if the "L" fork is not changed out (they are getting  hard to find!).

I have a couple of "F" gearboxes if it comes to that.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline cb750f-2010656

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Re: Keyster slide needles
« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2018, 04:53:57 AM »
Thanks, Hondaman!  This bike was t-boned just before o bought it for $50 from a towing company.  Nearly killed the guy riding it.  The alternator cover had a hole in it, the tank had a YUGE crease in it where the guys knee was.  Still have the old tank.  The points were smashed, the cover ripped off, the guages were smashed, etc.  I never got the electric start to work again.  Everything worked well untill the bike would begin to run.  Then it would seize.  You had to turn the engine BACKWARDS 1/8 turn to free it.  Determined it to be in the starter reduction, which I took out.  Been using the kickstart ever since.  20 year old me peicee it back together the best I could and it ran pretty good, but I couldn't do anything for the trans.  Now that you mention it I did have trouble getting into 5th gear, but it never jumped into a false neutral like 2nd did.  Oh, well.  All this stuff I will address when I get it out.  I just need to throw the motor backnit the car first.  Nothing major there, just re-sealing it and drilling out an exhaust stud.  I'm being lazy because it's getting colder outside.  I get to work on the bike in the house.
76 CB750F (Old Girl)
85 Rebel 250 (Little Girl)
96 Fleetwood Brougham (USS Great White)