Author Topic: Crankshaft Problems CB750  (Read 3495 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Jens77

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 18
Crankshaft Problems CB750
« on: December 25, 2018, 11:37:39 AM »
Hi...any idea what happend to my crankcase?
Is there something wrong?
Its a 1978 CB750 Supersport.
Thank for any information.

Jens
« Last Edit: December 25, 2018, 11:41:07 AM by Jens77 »

Offline bryanj

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,132
  • CB500 Number 1000036
Re: Crankshaft Problems CB750
« Reply #1 on: December 25, 2018, 11:54:57 AM »
Dont understand why you are measuring width as i dont know of any spec for that
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline Jens77

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 18
Re: Crankshaft Problems CB750
« Reply #2 on: December 25, 2018, 12:06:07 PM »
I dont know whats wrong. So i did some measurement.
Maybe someone can compare.
The width could be to big, so crankshaft touched.
I dont know 😔

Offline innovativems

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,028
    • Innovative MotoSports
Re: Crankshaft Problems CB750
« Reply #3 on: December 25, 2018, 12:15:27 PM »
How does your crank journal look?   There isn't much to gain by measuring that width.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
2007 KTM 990 adv
2003 Honda RC51
2000 Yamaha YSR50
1978 Honda Express
1975 Honda CB400f
1974 Honda CB350f
1974 Kawi H2
1974 Honda CB550f
1971 Kawi h1
1973 Kawi h1
1974 gt 550
1974 gt550

Offline bryanj

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,132
  • CB500 Number 1000036
Re: Crankshaft Problems CB750
« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2018, 12:15:42 PM »
What problem did you have to make you rear it down?
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline Jens77

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 18
Re: Crankshaft Problems CB750
« Reply #5 on: December 25, 2018, 12:27:24 PM »
Crankshaft looks normal, but preowner told me it was changed years ago.
Its the upper part of the crankcase.
I just dont know why it looks like this.
Is it the guide for the crankshaft?
Why did crankshaft touched the case?
Crankshaft not fixed?
Its my first CB750 engine...

Offline bryanj

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,132
  • CB500 Number 1000036
Re: Crankshaft Problems CB750
« Reply #6 on: December 25, 2018, 12:38:34 PM »
But why did you take it apart?
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline 754

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 29,050
Re: Crankshaft Problems CB750
« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2018, 12:39:18 PM »
What does the other case and crank look like ?
 I would just be making a guess that the hole in crank may have had debris partially blocking oil feed.
 Is the Kurt journal damaged ? DO YOU THINK THIS IS RECENT . OR EARLIER DAMAGE , ie.. the last guy had a problem and fixed it, awhile ago..
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline Jens77

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 18
Re: Crankshaft Problems CB750
« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2018, 12:55:22 PM »
the other half of the case looks normal. There is more space.
Its only in this half of the case and only at this point.
The case is milled there, it must have some function.
Maybe the crankshaft moved from left to right?
How is it  fixed / guided in horiz. direction?
I opened the engine to clean and check the valves and change seals.
The camshaft was not ok anymore, so i decided to split the enginge and check everything.
IT can be old or nee damage...hard to say.
The bike wasnt running for many many years. I got it this summer in bad condition.

Offline bryanj

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,132
  • CB500 Number 1000036
Re: Crankshaft Problems CB750
« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2018, 02:12:18 PM »
This engine does not have "thrust" bearings like a car engine has as there is no load in a horizontal direction. Apart from the slight damage on the corners of the mating faces i can see no problem but you need to plastigauge the shells to see what clearance there is. You also need to check the Honda manual for all required clearances.
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline innovativems

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,028
    • Innovative MotoSports
Re: Crankshaft Problems CB750
« Reply #10 on: December 25, 2018, 02:48:02 PM »
From what you have posted I don't see anything for concern.  Just check clearances


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
2007 KTM 990 adv
2003 Honda RC51
2000 Yamaha YSR50
1978 Honda Express
1975 Honda CB400f
1974 Honda CB350f
1974 Kawi H2
1974 Honda CB550f
1971 Kawi h1
1973 Kawi h1
1974 gt 550
1974 gt550

Offline 754

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 29,050
Re: Crankshaft Problems CB750
« Reply #11 on: December 25, 2018, 04:12:12 PM »
 If it were recent, you would have seen something in the oil.. if you inspect it..
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline Jens77

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 18
Re: Crankshaft Problems CB750
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2018, 02:04:02 AM »
OK, thanks..
Then i will get new bearings, chain, damper etc 😁



Offline bryanj

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,132
  • CB500 Number 1000036
Re: Crankshaft Problems CB750
« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2018, 03:18:28 AM »
Dont forget you need to get all the journal sizes from the crank and hole sizes from the cases.
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline Jens77

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 18
Re: Crankshaft Problems CB750
« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2018, 05:51:31 AM »
Yes.... the case is BBBBB and crankshaft AAAAA
The old bearings, i dont know which size.
They took the crankshaft from another engine, but i think did not checked the bearings.
I cannot trust anything. The bearings look terrible.

Offline innovativems

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,028
    • Innovative MotoSports
Re: Crankshaft Problems CB750
« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2018, 06:44:20 AM »
Between those sets of numbers the service manual should tell you what size bearings to run and then you can check clearances. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
2007 KTM 990 adv
2003 Honda RC51
2000 Yamaha YSR50
1978 Honda Express
1975 Honda CB400f
1974 Honda CB350f
1974 Kawi H2
1974 Honda CB550f
1971 Kawi h1
1973 Kawi h1
1974 gt 550
1974 gt550

Offline PeWe

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 15,759
  • Bike almost back to the 70's 2015
Re: Crankshaft Problems CB750
« Reply #16 on: December 26, 2018, 07:09:21 AM »
I was told back in the days that green shells usually work fine.
 
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline Tracksnblades1

  • My Son was a collegiate competition Trap, Skeet, and sporting Clay
  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,913
Re: Crankshaft Problems CB750
« Reply #17 on: December 26, 2018, 10:21:47 AM »
Is this the measurement your looking for..?
Age Quod Agis

Offline Tracksnblades1

  • My Son was a collegiate competition Trap, Skeet, and sporting Clay
  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,913
Re: Crankshaft Problems CB750
« Reply #18 on: December 26, 2018, 03:31:30 PM »
Jens77,

This illusive measurement , as you have already found,  is taken on the top case between cylinders 1&2. I can't see the milling or crankshaft marks in your pictures. I'll look through them again.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2018, 03:36:57 PM by Tracksnblades1 »
Age Quod Agis

Offline Tracksnblades1

  • My Son was a collegiate competition Trap, Skeet, and sporting Clay
  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,913
Re: Crankshaft Problems CB750
« Reply #19 on: December 26, 2018, 06:18:59 PM »
Your journal marked 4, is that evidence of heli-arc repair of the uppercase crankshaft thrust surface...?  Look at the pictured bottom main bearing stud hole, on the left side of journal ,  is that something welded to the side..?  It does in the attached picture look like the machined edges may have been rolled off by a heli-arc repair. I would focus on the upper and lower bearing shells condition of the journal you have marked 4. Those shells should indicate any immediate problems. Without being toe-to-toe with your uppercase it would be tough to tell whether the thrust surface had been repaired by welding and remachining.  Sometimes one can distinguish small color and or  textures changes, or arc undercutting in the remachined areas. I'd follow your trust nothing philosophy on this one too.
Age Quod Agis

Offline scottly

  • Global Moderator
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,418
  • Humboldt, AZ
Re: Crankshaft Problems CB750
« Reply #20 on: December 26, 2018, 07:11:43 PM »
None of the photos show the actual thrust surfaces...
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
Helmets save brains. Always wear one and ride like everyone is trying to kill you....

Offline Jens77

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 18
Re: Crankshaft Problems CB750
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2018, 07:51:25 AM »
I ordered new shells, the green ones.
Then i have to check with plastigage spb1
Hmm, yes...the edges are damaged, but not of the shells, they are much smaller.
The crankshaft touched the aluminium case.
There was no welding or machine work.
Some Pictures, i have two open engines.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2018, 08:06:27 AM by Jens77 »

Offline Jens77

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 18
Re: Crankshaft Problems CB750
« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2018, 08:15:05 AM »
OK...22,75mm is service limit.
So every case is still okay.
But which is the value of a new one?
Maybe it was to big? Mistake in production?
The crankshaft worked hard in the case and still more than 23mm.

Offline Tracksnblades1

  • My Son was a collegiate competition Trap, Skeet, and sporting Clay
  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,913
Re: Crankshaft Problems CB750
« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2018, 05:30:40 PM »
Jens77,
I'm not sure what the Honda thrust surfaces min/max were newly machined. I've lightly paged through the service manual, but nothing has jumped out at me.

What clearance does your green and blue feeler gauges indicate your thrust clearances are..?

You'll have to get a picture posted of the actual thrusts surface for forum members to actual see what your concerns are. You indicate the crankshaft has worked on them. Try a picture, perpendicular to the crankbore, of the thrust surface that concerns you.

If you feel the crank was loading on one thrust surface check for the cause. I'd inspect first the primary chain tensioner to see if it was trying to track the chain to one side.  Camshaft guide for the same and replace both guides and tensioner on both. They're old. Inspect crank thrust surfaces, crank sprockets, and runout.

If you have both cranks to chose from, as pictured, the journal with the green gauge, looks very dirty with what looks like rust on the crank's bearing surface. Without visually inspecting, measuring runout, journal sizes, and magnifying it, it would be a lottery to pick the best one.

It would be interesting to know what oil was used in your two engines. One oil was up to the task. The other looks like it was not.
Age Quod Agis

Offline 754

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 29,050
Re: Crankshaft Problems CB750
« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2018, 05:55:19 PM »
 To me it looks like something wore the side off the boss on the crankcase. M if not something fell in there.
 I have seen shells wore and overheated to the point, the steel base flared out the sides.
 And that maybe happened here... I really can't think if any reason between that or something falling in.

 When something like that happens, you toss the crank, replace it and the bearings, and unless something ovalled, you are good for another 50,000 miles.
 Would not  hurt to plastiguage that  one in 3 or 4  spotsm .. one at a time
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline Jens77

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 18
Re: Crankshaft Problems CB750
« Reply #25 on: December 28, 2018, 01:26:02 AM »
Bad News...i checked again...23,13 is in the base.
You can see where the crankshaft worked, its only 22,75
So what to do now?
Its the service limit...any experience?
« Last Edit: December 28, 2018, 01:27:39 AM by Jens77 »

Offline Tracksnblades1

  • My Son was a collegiate competition Trap, Skeet, and sporting Clay
  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,913
Re: Crankshaft Problems CB750
« Reply #26 on: December 28, 2018, 08:35:27 PM »
Excellent pictures... You know what they say about a picture's worth.

If I read 754 last post, I think someone My have already tossed the old crank.

You may be looking at the old cranks wear marks. I think it is what was trying to do the welding.

Does the crank you removed have matching wear marks...?
Age Quod Agis

Offline Jens77

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 18
Re: Crankshaft Problems CB750
« Reply #27 on: December 28, 2018, 11:46:17 PM »
Yes...you can see it in the crankshaft, looks little like polished

Offline 754

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 29,050
Re: Crankshaft Problems CB750
« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2018, 01:35:54 PM »
It's strange.
 It does not look deep so may not be a  problem , work the high spots off.
 One thing comes to  mind.. maybe.  . Bike went down on alternator side breaking cover,  kept running pushing the crank against the thrust surface ? .
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline bryanj

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,132
  • CB500 Number 1000036
Re: Crankshaft Problems CB750
« Reply #29 on: December 29, 2018, 03:48:13 PM »
If it is still in spec use it
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline Jens77

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 18
Re: Crankshaft Problems CB750
« Reply #30 on: December 31, 2018, 07:53:53 AM »
I dont know about the history of this bike.
Everything might be possible.
Some say the case is rubbish.
I am not sure, its not too deep...but on the service limit.
Hmmm...i remouved the material carefully.
Have to check crankshaft and rods.
Then i will use it again..i did not get a new on Christmas 😣
Anybody tried washer on legt and right side or other way of guiding the crankshaft?

Happy 2019

Offline bryanj

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,132
  • CB500 Number 1000036
Re: Crankshaft Problems CB750
« Reply #31 on: December 31, 2018, 10:13:23 AM »
DO NOT put anything on end of crank.
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline Tracksnblades1

  • My Son was a collegiate competition Trap, Skeet, and sporting Clay
  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,913
Re: Crankshaft Problems CB750
« Reply #32 on: December 31, 2018, 10:44:17 AM »
What is your end play ( thrust ) clearance....?
Age Quod Agis

Offline Tracksnblades1

  • My Son was a collegiate competition Trap, Skeet, and sporting Clay
  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,913
Re: Crankshaft Problems CB750
« Reply #33 on: December 31, 2018, 11:32:02 AM »
I finally found Honda's production min, max, and service limit in the same publication.
Hope this helps with your decision. Have a Happy New Year.....Hic-cup...Hic-cup...burp......hic-cup
Toot......🎉😎
Age Quod Agis