Topic: Factory CR750 at Mecum

[slikwilli420]

Pretty amazing looking machine.

https://www.mecum.com/lots/LV0119-362319/1971-honda-cr750-factory-racer/

[Tintop]

Given it has a stock oil tank, is this a 'factory built' kit bike?  Just wondering.

[MRieck]

Given it has a stock oil tank, is this a 'factory built' kit bike?  Just wondering.

Me too.

[kmb69]

Definitely NOT a factory CR.

[turboguzzi]

had a look at the rest of the Stockholm museum sale and it made my jaw drop.... havent seen so many desirable bikes in one sale.
https://www.mecum.com/auctions/las-vegas-motorcycle-2019/lots/motorcycles/01/25/
 

[Sam Green Racing]

Watching with a lot of interest. 

[turboguzzi]

Watching with a lot of interest. 

Watching with a lot of envy!!!! 

[Sam Green Racing]

Watching with a lot of interest. 

Watching with a lot of envy!!!! 

I don't think so Yos, but providing the provenance is in place, good luck to the guys.

Looking at it another way though, can you really see Honda turning a bike out like that.
If you read through the auction houses own write up on this bike,

 The CR750 was the racing version of Honda’s CB750, and while several “CR750s” were sold as kits, the factory did build a very few racers, including four for the 1970 Daytona 200, which Dick Mann won on his infamous orange machine. The CR750 was not available to the public or privateer racers; it was strictly a factory job, made available to very few importers. Sweden had very large sales of the Honda four and quite a few world-class Grand Prix riders in the period, and the Swedish importer Autohansa was offered a genuine CR750 from the Honda factory. Autohansa duly ordered a CR750 in late 1970, and the machine was delivered in the fall of 1971, ready to race for the 1972 Swedish racing season.

They are basically saying it is the same as the Daytona bikes made only for a few of their best customers and yes, I know they did do this and I have seen a few of these bikes and none of them look like this one.

Of the extra bikes they made, I know for a fact that one came to Bill Smith in Chester, England, a couple went to Honda France and one went to Honda Australia and all were as near as damn it the same as the Daytona bikes.
So why send this one to Autohansa in Sweden looking very stock indeed. Apart from the already mentioned steel oil tank, the frame, swingarm and rear shocks are stock CB750 as is the generator which is sticking through the side of the fairing, something smells a bit fishy to me. haha.

[simon#42]

if these are the bikes they want to get rid of to make space the ones they are keeping must be pretty impressive .

i think the 750 is a replica though , not the original cases probably not the original engine . why fit different rods in a historic bike and ruin its originality ?  i did see the bill smith bike and it did not look like this .

[PeWe]

I had no knowledge of that museum! I live 100 km away from it and I'll miss that bike.
If it is this museum: https://mc-collection.com/en

Edit: It will move to just outside my town. 20 minutes drive :-)

Mc Collection moves to Tidö Slott (Castle)
Mc Collection moves on 29 July 2018 from Sollentuna. Mc Collection opens the exhibition in 2019 at Tidö Castle outside Västerås. During the winter months until the opening, exciting environments with a lot of interactivities will be created – emphasis is placed on the whole family having an interesting and enjoyable visit to look forward to.

[Sam Green Racing]

if these are the bikes they want to get rid of to make space the ones they are keeping must be pretty impressive .

i think the 750 is a replica though , not the original cases probably not the original engine . why fit different rods in a historic bike and ruin its originality ?  i did see the bill smith bike and it did not look like this .

Thanks Simon.

[CR750]

That bike ain't a factory CR - like Mann's bike for sure, as others noticed.. Provenance, mmmm yeah but not for a bike with the current engine, and I wonder if it has had a frame number on the factory papers.. I doubt it. So then my bike can also a factory provided racer if they let me copy the document....An who on earth would run a museum and upgrade unobtainable original items with modern of the shelve performance parts. I mean comenon, if a racer would do it it would still be blasphemy, which such a bike, but makes some sense..... but an museum with bikes on static display?

I wonder what it will fetch. If you are serious collector you would/should have the hairs in your neck also raised when eying this bike and description. But then there are lots of people with more money then brains...

[Short shins]

think this might answer the question
From the description
"This particular CR750 was not raced often, as during its early years, it broke a connecting rod and destroyed the original crankcase with Engine No. CB750E-1088639. The engine was swapped with Engine No. CB750E-2421824, which still exists. The crankcase, as far as the MC Collection, knows is the same on both the CR750 and CB750. When the MC Collection made a full and complete restoration of this machine, a NOS crankcase still in its original Honda box was found and used for the engine. The rest of the engine is made of original CR750 parts original to this machine, except for a few improvements like Carillo connecting rods and an upgraded cam-chain tensioner, a known weak spot. This CR750 has the original chassis equipment from the factory, including the sand-cast rear brake, the twin front disc brakes, the 18-inch aluminum rims, the 28.0L fuel tank, special thinwall exhaust system and CR750 factory fairing. Sadly, the original racing seat was stolen at a race in 1972 or 1973 and has been replaced by a replica. This historic 1971 Honda CR750 is very important, has comprehensive documentation and is a genuine racer supplied by the Honda factory to Autohansa in 1971. The MC Collection purchased the machine from its only owner from 1975 and has sympathetically restored this compelling and truly rare machine."
So no its not 100% original but it is a (almost) genuine kit racer.. I would buy it but you cant sell children these days..

[simon#42]

unfortunately when buying a very expensive old racing bike you have to be  sceptical . if that engine does not have the right numbers you have to wonder why ,the reason stated why it does not have the original cases is very very common and often bollocks . buyer beware!

[CR750]

For 200-250k I call bull#$%*, especially with that description that raising all kind of questions. Look at the frontforks for example, gastank etc. It could be that parts of this bike have once been part of a bike spoken about in the provenance, but for sure this is not a 'factory' honda.

[turboguzzi]

Watching with a lot of interest. 

Watching with a lot of envy!!!! 

I don't think so Yos, but providing the provenance is in place, good luck to the guys.

Looking at it another way though, can you really see Honda turning a bike out like that.
If you read through the auction houses own write up on this bike,

 The CR750 was the racing version of Honda’s CB750, and while several “CR750s” were sold as kits, the factory did build a very few racers, including four for the 1970 Daytona 200, which Dick Mann won on his infamous orange machine. The CR750 was not available to the public or privateer racers; it was strictly a factory job, made available to very few importers. Sweden had very large sales of the Honda four and quite a few world-class Grand Prix riders in the period, and the Swedish importer Autohansa was offered a genuine CR750 from the Honda factory. Autohansa duly ordered a CR750 in late 1970, and the machine was delivered in the fall of 1971, ready to race for the 1972 Swedish racing season.

They are basically saying it is the same as the Daytona bikes made only for a few of their best customers and yes, I know they did do this and I have seen a few of these bikes and none of them look like this one.

Of the extra bikes they made, I know for a fact that one came to Bill Smith in Chester, England, a couple went to Honda France and one went to Honda Australia and all were as near as damn it the same as the Daytona bikes.
So why send this one to Autohansa in Sweden looking very stock indeed. Apart from the already mentioned steel oil tank, the frame, swingarm and rear shocks are stock CB750 as is the generator which is sticking through the side of the fairing, something smells a bit fishy to me. haha.

Sam, wasnt actually thinking of the CR750.... plenty of items on my nice to have list in there, Falcone, RC30, G80CS, TT F1 racer, V7 sport, NSU MAX...

[gschuld]

Reference article FWIW

George

[Sam Green Racing]

OK guys, let's put this to bed. Probably only Simon#42 might know the people involved in this thread but all the riders with the exception of Dick Mann at Daytona were personal friends of of mine and despite all the news paper clippings as posted by George, a lot of the information is just hearsay as picked up by the media, no disrespect George.
I was involved with people working on the projects before Daytona and to me, this bike that is for sale is not the sort of thing that Honda would have turned out to one of their valued customers in Sweden.
Why turn out a bike that is half stock in the hope of winning races at the top level even if the riders are the best in the country?
It's plain to see that anyone with half a brain could turn out a bike better than this using after market or replica parts.

Sam.

[MRieck]

OK guys, let's put this to bed. Probably only Simon#42 might know the people involved in this thread but all the riders with the exception of Dick Mann at Daytona were personal friends of of mine and despite all the news paper clippings as posted by George, a lot of the information is just hearsay as picked up by the media, no disrespect George.
I was involved with people working on the projects before Daytona and to me, this bike that is for sale is not the sort of thing that Honda would have turned out to one of their valued customers in Sweden.
Why turn out a bike that is half stock in the hope of winning races at the top level even if the riders are the best in the country?
It's plain to see that anyone with half a brain could turn out a bike better than this using after market or replica parts.

Sam.

Uncle Sammy did know those British chaps. I think Ralph was the closest to him. http://clingonforlife.blogspot.com/2011/09/death-of-cr750.html At least that's what I remember after some scotch whiskey and Jack Daniels in Sam's flat.

[754]

I wonder if the C bracket for the second brake hanger, is similar to the CFC magnesium one. .?

[Sam Green Racing]

To much Scotch and JD Michael Murphy, haha, Tommy Robb was the closest and we still speak almost every week.
Sadly Ralph is no longer with us as is their mechanic Steve Murray who was their main stay at Daytona.
It was all about being in the right place at the right time. Did you ever tell about the time I took you to meet the Ron Williams who wrapped a frame around the Honda NR500 and made it work when Honda couldn't ?
I've forgotten more about Honda's history than most people know to this day. hahaha.

[scottly]

I wonder if the C bracket for the second brake hanger, is similar to the CFC magnesium one. .?

I got spanked by someone that used to post here for suggesting that, Frank.

[754]

CFC made 4 bolt axle clamp lower legs for 500 4 bikes.
 I think the CR used 4 bolt axle plates..
 Not a big stretch for someone to look at those discontinued parts and think of making them..

[Sam Green Racing]

CFC made 4 bolt axle clamp lower legs for 500 4 bikes.
 I think the CR used 4 bolt axle plates..
 Not a big stretch for someone to look at those discontinued parts and think of making them..

Correct Frank. H2Eric who's bike won BOTY in 2017 eventually had 4 bolt magnesium lowers made for it.

[gschuld]

I am not at all well versed on early Honda cb750 based racing history.  So I have no idea how many custom framed CB750 engined race bikes the Honda racing group built back then of who they sold them to.

But they offered their “970” kits or “970” individual race specific parts to the public through dealers yes?  Those 970 kit parts were intended to transform a factory CB750 with bolt on parts into a race bike.  Not that this was equivalent to a Honda racing custom built racer, but a reasonably(depending on the competition level) competitive setup while using the factory chassis, swingarm, as a base. 

So is it fair to say that it’s possible that this bike was (or most of it was) a factory new 1971 bike that Honda supplied a whole pile of “970” kit parts to build a brand new race bike while retaining the factory oil tank etc?  This certainly doesn’t mean it’s a Honda factory racebike like Dick Mann and others raced, nor should it pretend to be anywhere near as valuable. 

But is this a likely situation assuming the provenance paperwork is real but “cleverly” exaggerated for the sake of increasing its value?

George