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Offline andyman

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Questions CB350Four Racer
« on: January 15, 2019, 07:27:02 am »
Hey guys!
Are there any people racing a 350Four? Which modifications? Stock or tuning camshaft?

Regards!

Andy

Offline MRieck

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Re: Questions CB350Four Racer
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2019, 07:50:46 am »
I've corresponded with a fella in Australia that has been working on one.
Owner of the "Million Dollar CB"

Offline gschuld

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Re: Questions CB350Four Racer
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2019, 08:44:26 am »
https://www.motorcyclistonline.com/motorcyclist-flashback-cardiac-kids-strike-again

This is an entertaining article by Mitch Boehm for Motorcyclist magazine.

Toward the end you will see why it pertains to road racing cb350/400f bikes.

George

Offline turboguzzi

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Re: Questions CB350Four Racer
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2019, 11:38:46 am »
https://www.motorcyclistonline.com/motorcyclist-flashback-cardiac-kids-strike-again

This is an entertaining article by Mitch Boehm for Motorcyclist magazine.

Toward the end you will see why it pertains to road racing cb350/400f bikes.

George
Nice try george, but a CB350 and CB400 are very different animals, the latter (taken to 500+) a known giant killer, the first not so much, even if they share some engine parts.

In vintage racing, the only honda 350 doing the winning are the twins.

PS- met the Mitch once, would you believe he told me too that story and how epic it all was? Guy was really stuck in  gear, wouldnt let go until i acknowledged how a great rider he was  :)

Offline seanbarney41

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Re: Questions CB350Four Racer
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2019, 11:47:17 am »
Never met mitch, but the rocky solo character is pretty much archetypical here in michigan.  So much so, that I have similar stories of pretty much every old bike I have purchased over the years.  Hell, even I could be rocky solo.
If it works good, it looks good...

Offline gschuld

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Re: Questions CB350Four Racer
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2019, 11:59:02 am »
https://www.motorcyclistonline.com/motorcyclist-flashback-cardiac-kids-strike-again

This is an entertaining article by Mitch Boehm for Motorcyclist magazine.

Toward the end you will see why it pertains to road racing cb350/400f bikes.

George
Nice try george, but a CB350 and CB400 are very different animals, the latter (taken to 500+) a known giant killer, the first not so much, even if they share some engine parts.

In vintage racing, the only honda 350 doing the winning are the twins.

PS- met the Mitch once, would you believe he told me too that story and how epic it all was? Guy was really stuck in  gear, wouldnt let go until i acknowledged how a great rider he was  :)

Yossef,

That’s a good point regarding the differences between the cb350f and the cb400f.  My brain is pretty stuck on the bigger displacements of the bigger Sohc model.

I never met Mitch, but I have spoken to Patrick Bodden a number of times.  Patrick was usually his main bike builder(built the Big Benly F750 racer) and crew chief on other borrowed bike races.  Yes, Mitch is widely considered to be rather full of ... um...self confidence😉

He should have destroyed the little yellow peril cb400f if he wasn’t carrying around that extra 70+lbs of extra body weight.  Not that I’m generally disparaging the heavy set, but it’s harder to swallow the attitude when you look like the newly minted national winner of the hotdog eating contest.

Offline turboguzzi

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Re: Questions CB350Four Racer
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2019, 01:32:17 pm »
I think that old hands will remember patrick sticking his neck out here in the forum eons ago, it ended up quick due to similar attitude problem :)

Offline gschuld

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Re: Questions CB350Four Racer
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2019, 04:58:29 pm »
That’s interesting as my interactions with him were very positive.  We did a little business, shared stories, etc.  I found him to be very knowledgeable, especially about early cr750 history and custom CB750 based race bikes, yet surprisingly humble and genuine.  I’d just assume keep that memory, even if it wasn’t the whole story.

I’ve found in general that many of the most knowledgeable or skilled/talented people I know have social quirks that can be off putting if given the right circumstances.  Which is a shame as forum settings tend to be target rich environments for some members to push these peoples buttons and make them reluctant to continue engaging.  I’ve seen a good number of these situations over a number of different types of forums to form that opinion.  This is just a generality, as I know nothing about how Patrick Bodden may have acted here.

I reallly enjoy learning from people with a far deeper than normal experience level.  It is rare, so I’d take a person like this with potentially a less than stellar bedside manner over 50 perfectly pleasant people who have far less to offer.  Perhaps I have a higher than usual tolerance of jackasses as I live in NJ.😁

George






Offline HondaMan

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Re: Questions CB350Four Racer
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2019, 06:29:24 pm »
I'd race the CB350F in roadracing, just cuz! Maybe even the CB250F, if I could find one.
No, I don't need to win, just need to RACE! If I finish, then I won! :D

I still think the Baby Fours are the coolest bikes to ever ride the streets. A close second was the Benelli Six that cloned the CB500 Four into their 750.
The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
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Offline turboguzzi

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Re: Questions CB350Four Racer
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2019, 08:34:36 am »
That’s interesting as my interactions with him were very positive.  We did a little business, shared stories, etc.  I found him to be very knowledgeable, especially about early cr750 history and custom CB750 based race bikes, yet surprisingly humble and genuine.  I’d just assume keep that memory, even if it wasn’t the whole story.

I’ve found in general that many of the most knowledgeable or skilled/talented people I know have social quirks that can be off putting if given the right circumstances.  Which is a shame as forum settings tend to be target rich environments for some members to push these peoples buttons and make them reluctant to continue engaging.  I’ve seen a good number of these situations over a number of different types of forums to form that opinion.  This is just a generality, as I know nothing about how Patrick Bodden may have acted here.

I reallly enjoy learning from people with a far deeper than normal experience level.  It is rare, so I’d take a person like this with potentially a less than stellar bedside manner over 50 perfectly pleasant people who have far less to offer.  Perhaps I have a higher than usual tolerance of jackasses as I live in NJ.😁

George
I wasnt even involved in the discussions as I know little about 750s, just remember there were a few heated ones and then it was over and out...

Offline SD26

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Re: Questions CB350Four Racer
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2019, 01:26:12 pm »
I can help a little.

I am the racer on the Yellow Peril CB400f.  I raced it for the owner (two of three builds actually) from 1994 to 199o, and then in 2015 once.  Also, I raced the CB750 for Mr Hadley the year after Mitch and I went at it in 1996.

Offline turboguzzi

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Re: Questions CB350Four Racer
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2019, 03:00:36 pm »
nice, welcome to the forum!

Offline gschuld

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Re: Questions CB350Four Racer
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2019, 04:52:01 pm »
Yes welcome.  You would be Dave Rosno I take it?  Please stay and share😉

George
« Last Edit: February 13, 2019, 04:59:24 pm by gschuld »

Offline gschuld

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Re: Questions CB350Four Racer
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2019, 05:03:20 pm »

Dave, this appears to be your 2015 run on Yellow Peril.  Nice

George

Offline turboguzzi

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Re: Questions CB350Four Racer
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2019, 03:34:50 am »
nice until mid race..... what happened to the engine?

Offline SD26

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Re: Questions CB350Four Racer
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2019, 04:15:32 am »
Yes welcome.  You would be Dave Rosno I take it?  Please stay and share😉

George
It is, George!
« Last Edit: February 17, 2019, 10:31:02 am by SD26 »

Offline SD26

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Re: Questions CB350Four Racer
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2019, 04:43:37 pm »
nice until mid race..... what happened to the engine?
Well, it never ran right on the two practice days to get a clean lap. 

I never raced Yellow Peril I.  Yellow Peril II and III I did race alternatively based upon all kinds of reasons.  Back the first time I rode the bikes the first time, they had stock forks, then they got Ceriani forks.  Stock swingarm originally, then later a Dresda swingarm, then a very modified swingarm that AHRMA asked us not to return with. 

We were using the same primary fuel we used in 2015 as we used in the 90s, Power Mist T111, but it really fueled poorly.  I think the last time I raced either of the bikes was at the Streets of Park City Utah in 1999.  I think they were raced a few times by some other people, but there were certainly some phantom issues in handling and electrical.  Lots of chasing. 

The end result was that I got asked to do an endurance race or two, and then I went and bought a TZ125 for myself.  We'll see how that goes this year.

Offline SD26

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Re: Questions CB350Four Racer
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2019, 04:45:38 pm »
A close second was the Benelli Six that cloned the CB500 Four into their 750.
Well, I didn't know that!

Offline SD26

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Re: Questions CB350Four Racer
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2019, 05:58:52 pm »
Kind of going off memory, the Yellow Peril was a CB400F frame.  I don't remember the swingarms making much actual difference.  I don't remember the change to different forks making much difference.  For quite some time, we had some Redwing shocks on the back.  And I could run it in pretty hard.  I'd get a lot of swingarm bounce that could cause the front wheel to bounce.  I wanted longer shocks to overcome that, but I just never was able to get that done.  Over preloading the shocks would at least allow me to have something closer to a rear strut that helped, but not perfect.  I think the rear drum hub was actuall a really, really light unit from an old CanAM MX bike. 

Single piston Honda calipers.  Two of them.  I think the rotors were off some kind of Suzuki.  I don't remember if the hub was from a Honda or a Suzuki or what. 

I think we had a 458cc kit in the one bike.  We might have gotten a bit more displacement later when working with Poweroll. 

AHRMA had some very specific rules that would not allow any of the modern CR carbs to be used in F500.  Stock carbs...or something else.  So, the owner, well, he had some Triumphs, and he had these Amal carbs.  I think he had some manifolds machined, but later he cast his own.  There were some problems with slop in the throttle cable, but it wasn't something that couldn't be over come. 

I think the triple clamps were off a CBX, different offset.  WM3 front wheel, WM4.5 rear wheel...as WM5's were hard to find.  Four into one exhausts...were kind of unknown origin.  One might have been a Kaz Yoshima unit and the other seems to have been maybe a Kerker.  The four-into-four units were hand build hydro formed units.  That was a real kick in the nuts for the owner when AHRMA changed the rules claiming that no Formula based machinery had anything other than four into four units.  The Krause Yoshimura CR750 that led the 1971 Daytona 200 was the counter to this, but AHRMA seemed to have issues.

I had a deal with Dunlop for my racing school, so were were just running Dunlop K591's.  100 front, 120VB rear (a 110 carcass with a 120 exterior).  1988-1991 GSXR stock footpeg brackets were used. 

The calipers were originally left at the front of the forks.  I had some handling issues with quickness of left to right changes of directions, and I finally got the calipers moved to the rear of the fork.  Helped make it work better. 

I don't know what cam it had or the specifics on valves. 

The owner stated that there was an oiling issue with the top end in manufacturing, and that the cam chain tensioner wasn't good.  He changed the oiling on the top end, blew a hole in the cylinder and installed a new rubbing block with a cam chain tensioner off a newer Kawasaki I think.  While that was developed around increasing reliability, it actually freed up the Reving of the engine overall and especially on top. 

Regular HP on a Dynojet Dyno was about 50-51HP on Power Mist T111, but we could get about four more by using Power Mist TO-137 which had 5% oxygen. 

Offline gschuld

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Re: Questions CB350Four Racer
« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2019, 06:35:06 am »
Dave,

Could you share a bit about your experience racing Vic World’s sandcast 970 kit bike? 

George
« Last Edit: February 17, 2019, 06:41:50 am by gschuld »

Offline SD26

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Re: Questions CB350Four Racer
« Reply #20 on: February 17, 2019, 07:44:20 am »
Dave,

Could you share a bit about your experience racing Vic World’s sandcast 970 kit bike? 

George
Sure!

I got a call at work prior to the end of April 1999.  It was pretty much, "Hey, I saw you race at this place against a CR750 (against Kurt Liebmann's CR at Mid-Ohio...1996 or 1995).  Would you like to come to Sears Point to race mine?"

The only other CB750 sandcast F750 bike I had raced was Harlan's bike.  That was a Dresda frame.  I think it was described in the Motorcyclist article as being more of a late 70's endurance racer kind of bike.  And, with all this Phillip Island Classic racing going on, it all reminds me of Harlan's bike. 

The World bike was completely newly assembled.  Had only recently ran, and it had never been on a race track.  I think the plan was that they were going to run it on Friday practice, then do practice and a race on Saturday, I'd fly in after work, race it Sunday, then come home.  I think there were problems on Friday, even some on Saturday.  I mean, it's a completely new build.  Plane ticket was in Chicago for me.  I made a call to see if things were on, and it was.  So, after work on Saturday, I drove to O'Hare, flew to California.  Vic picked me up and we at a very late meal, showed me the shop, and then slept for the night. 

Up early to Sears Point, which I really enjoy despite the dangers there.  Everyone was new to me, so that was something to learn.  My local mentor was a long time NASA engineer and AFM school instructor, and he arrived for support.  My sister-in-law stopped in too.  I would have one race, F750.  I don't remember anything going poorly, but I only managed third.  I always have issues and information for changes and ideas.  I think Vic World might have raced it in Formula Vintage later, but his friend Mike took me to the airport so I could get home.  I was in California for about 19 hours.  :)

Vic raced it at Mid-Ohio.  I was doing the NASB thing in 1999 with Kawasaki in addition to my riding school.  I can't remember if I was invited out or not or what.  Either way, it probably helped things move along.

I raced the bike in 2000 at Daytona.  Vic had never been to Daytona, and it can be a real grind.  Things to learn for both Vic and I.  I was able to get into the lead ahead of Don Canet and Adam Popp a number of times.  I think AHRMA was only one day then, and each time out the bike and I made friends.  Finally putting in some good laps, I recognized that we were geared too tall.  I don't remember the wind changing directions or anything, but we also had no prior data too. 

Anyway, after leading off and on, the transmission started shifting very poorly, and that was negatively affecting my ability to be consistent mixing it up with Don and Adam.  I decided to bring it home safe.  Third was decent, but I still wanted more.  I felt it could do it.  It was also puffing smoke.  I think that a small part failed and was pushing on the cylinder wall. 


I think I had some desires and complaints from the race, and those were supposed to be taken care of for the next time at Daytona 2001.  Talk and translation is hard sometimes without having your hands on things.  Kawasaki pulled the plug on their support program that 15 of us had for the prior two seasons even though they talked big at Daytona to us in October 2000.  So, I had a scramble putting together a Suzuki and the school program prior to Daytona.  The guy Vic had doing suspension was very good, but something got lost in translation.  I was spinning the CR very, very hard going through the infield kink.  I'm not a flat track rider, but I could see where is was really going to give me problems.  I got mad.  I walked on the race.  Pretty unprofessional, but I didn't hurt myself or the bike on track. 

Vic was really pretty understanding after my mentor in California talked with him about risk.  Eventually, we came to the understanding of how little time we had on the bike.  Hands on.  We decided that I should come to California to test in the Fall of 2001 to prep for Daytona 2002.  Did I mention Vic was really understanding?  :)  Sears Point was having a track day or test day or something.  I get to his shop, and he's got another CB750 race bike, sandcast.  Asks me what header pipes it has, and I instantly recognize the nice curve coming from the head all the way down.  "Yosh!" I say.  He says that he thinks it is the original Yoshimura CR750 that led the 1971 Daytona 200. 

Off to testing.  Well, no.  It rains, and the one hill collapses into the track in a mud slide.  :D  So, no actual riding, but I did get to push on the bike to compare to what it was (which was obviously going to be a problem when I pushed on it at Daytona 2001). 

I don't know if AHRMA was a two day event in 2001, but it was in 2002.  I was pretty "on" for the event.  The Yosh CR750 was completed...I have no idea how that got done at that level and that quick.  And Gary Fisher, the rider from the Daytona 200 in 1971 was going to ride it.  He hadn't raced since the Boldor for BMW in something like 1977 or something.  Gary and I clicked.  Then again, maybe he clicks with everyone. 

Short story:  I won F750 and FVintage at Daytona.  My first and second wins at Daytona.  Bike didn't really feel stronger, but the chassis was right.  Really right.  I think we set the fastest vintage lap at Daytona, but we just weren't on the caring side of some of the stop watches of those that keep those records.  It's a nice thing that others can boast about for you, but I think we were just focused on doing better.  I think Gary and I believed that I was going to win. 

Longer bits:  Some starts were aborted due to huge crashes, and I was nearly collected in them.  On one occasion, I was in the grass with the beautiful bike.  But, I need to remind myself, I crashed in Monday practice in what seemed to be someone's oil in the International Horseshoe.  That was terrible as it beat up one of the original CR pipes pretty bad.  It was quite a bit of work for Vic to get the ignition side all cleaned up and set.  Vic continued to use points.  Weight, reliability, I think. 

The bike carried Vic's number 970.  970 is the Honda prefix for all Honda CB750 Racing parts.  :)  Before I crashed, the bike had an original 970 part number windscreen.  The original tag was on it even, and it can be seen in some pictures.  I went through that as I low sided in the Horseshoe.  Vic had amassed the parts over decades, and, as other CR750's and CR750 replicas started to come out, he decided he'd assemble all of his parts...and I think that made it the largest number of 970/CR750 parts ever on one bike.  I would think that they were hard to get a hold of in the time period, or they were even rejected by teams and riders. 

2002 was a post 9/11 world, and shipping things around became more complicated.  Previously, the bikes could be flown via air freight from California or Ohio for a reasonable cost.  In 2002, the bikes came by truck from California to Ohio, and then I traveled from Wisconsin to Ohio to take them to Daytona.  The snow was bad.  Dangerous.  But we made it.  I think now doing a lot of that is more prohibitive cost wise.  I think that's what has hurt international entries from years past. 

Works Performance shocks reworked by Aftershocks in California.  Similarly, Works Performance spring kits in the front forks with various things done inside to the damper rods, etc by Aftershocks.  I think the guy with Aftershocks has since passed away as has the owner of Works Performance.  I wanted the calipers moved to the other side of the forks, but this was something that Vic was absolutely standing his ground on maintaining for an authenticity of appearance.  In the end, I went really, really fast with it that way.  No modified triple clamps.  As a result, I needed the front end pretty darn high for me to clamp down on the DP Brakes pads.  I tend to use a lot of trail and run in on the front brake hard.  I think we used a smaller front tire.  Vic had a very good reason that I agreed with on principle, but I don't remember what it was. 

Good times!

Offline bwaller

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Re: Questions CB350Four Racer
« Reply #21 on: February 17, 2019, 11:39:55 am »
Thanks Dave, good interesting report.

Offline turboguzzi

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Re: Questions CB350Four Racer
« Reply #22 on: February 17, 2019, 11:54:54 am »
super interesting, thanks. And also merits having it's own thread rather than hidding in a 350 post.... moderators, can you help?

Offline gschuld

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Re: Questions CB350Four Racer
« Reply #23 on: February 17, 2019, 01:09:25 pm »
Dave,

Great info and Kudos on the victories.  Sorry I poisoned this thread.  But it’s good poison anyway...😎

George

Offline SD26

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Re: Questions CB350Four Racer
« Reply #24 on: February 17, 2019, 01:33:13 pm »
Dave,

Great info and Kudos on the victories.  Sorry I poisoned this thread.  But it’s good poison anyway...😎

George
:) 

I don't know if you poisoned it. 

Yet another note on CB's. 

I raced the Racing Unlimited CB500/4 once at Road America.  I think that was 1998 or 1999.  And I raced some of the Team Hansen CB450's. 

I know that the swingarm pivot location on the CB750 is very close to the countershaft.  I think that really improved the handling for higher traction tires.  But one needs spring rates to maintain that location of the pivot under traction collapse.  Or even off the gas.  I think I even rode someone's CB550 that was allowed into F500 because of like design too.  It had hugely long shocks.  Of course, then that leads to issues with trail and feel up front.  If one had long shocks and long fork tubes, it really helps with a lot of things.  If one wants to get into more modifications, then it becomes moving the swingarm pivot location and triple clamps with less offset.  The extra ground clearance can be handy with the longer forks and shocks, but you've got a taller frontal area too. 

Decisions, decisions. 


Offline turboguzzi

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Re: Questions CB350Four Racer
« Reply #25 on: February 18, 2019, 04:05:09 am »
tnxs for the confirmation! when i first hit the track with my CB500/4 the need to raise the end was immediately evident, ended quite high in the back. indeed, lost quite a bit front end feel, restored it with smaller offset triples to bring trail back to around 100mm.
now the million dollar question: which is faster a well developed 500/4 or 450T?

Offline SD26

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Re: Questions CB350Four Racer
« Reply #26 on: February 19, 2019, 05:35:22 am »
I'd think the 4's have the better chassis because of the swingarm pivot location being so close to the countershaft, longer swingarm, etc. 

Offline 75FourFun

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Re: Questions CB350Four Racer
« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2019, 07:25:27 am »
I'd race the CB350F in roadracing, just cuz! Maybe even the CB250F, if I could find one.
No, I don't need to win, just need to RACE! If I finish, then I won! :D

I still think the Baby Fours are the coolest bikes to ever ride the streets. A close second was the Benelli Six that cloned the CB500 Four into their 750.

^^^well said!

 

;
Honda