Author Topic: 550 idle noise (gearbox)  (Read 2738 times)

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Offline uksparky

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550 idle noise (gearbox)
« on: January 21, 2019, 09:45:42 AM »
Did a search on this idle noise 78 550.. had this since i got it ... when clutch pulled in no noise, bump the  idle to 1500 rpm no noise, below that rpm i have the gearbox clatter noise... carb sync/timing/cam chain spot on... engine idle is smooth no problems.. 6k ago i replaced the primary chain, got a feeling its stretched again, if this noise is normal i will forget about it...
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Offline hsas.69

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Re: 550 idle noise (gearbox)
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2019, 10:00:09 AM »
Clutch basket rattle..?

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Offline bryanj

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Re: 550 idle noise (gearbox)
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2019, 10:30:09 AM »
What tickover are you trying to achieve? Anything below 1100 rpm is not a good idea.
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: 550 idle noise (gearbox)
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2019, 11:21:13 AM »
What you are describing is "gear clack".  And they all have it to some degree.  It is exacerbated by cylinders that don't fire with same power as others.  Proper carb balance and fine tuning helps.

Here's why:
The trans main gears are all meshed, even if not engaged for power flow by the gear dogs.  If during idle the crank speed changes, the gear teeth change their contact face alignment front to back which causes a "clack" sound.  And there is a lot of them inside the case.  Only when the crank turns smoothly is the play between the gear teeth not noticeable.  Higher revs, and a change in gear box moving part inertia from the clutch basket and discs alter the sound frequency and intensity.
 As the trans parts wear, the tooth to tooth gap increases magnifying clack or rattle sound.

Most CB550's will make this sound unless the pistons all fire with equal intensity.  Otherwise the minute changes in crank speed from uneven firing will make the trans gears clack at idle.

If all the cylinders have the same exact compression, and they are all fed identical charges of fuel and air, then the crank rotation is smooth between firings, and trans and/or clutch basket part don't change their orientation with their mated parts, producing no noise.

I don't like the gear clack so I find a tune or RPM where it is avoided when cylinders wear unevenly.  But, I will vacuum balance the carbs, and then twiddle the air or IMS screws to minimize the clacking.  All to get each cylinder to fire with the same strength as the others during idle firing sequence.

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Offline uksparky

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Re: 550 idle noise (gearbox)
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2019, 11:23:21 AM »
Normal idle is around 1200 when warmed up, ..no it's not clutch basket I know that sound,  I should take video.. a year ago thinking it was a gearbox problem I split the cases and replaced the gearbox used unit low miles....same problem noise. 😣 I will try moving mixture screws see how it goes.. thanks
« Last Edit: January 21, 2019, 11:26:39 AM by uksparky »
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Offline uksparky

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Re: 550 idle noise (gearbox)
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2019, 11:32:37 AM »
Could be camshaft i don't have stock cam, that could be my promlem, kenny harmon cam has longer duration..
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Offline Tracksnblades1

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Re: 550 idle noise (gearbox)
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2019, 11:59:27 AM »
Sparky
When convenient google "Dual Mass Flywheels" and "transmission rollover".
Them young whipper snappers driving modified diesels know this well.
Some of their findings may be applicable to your query.

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Offline TwoTired

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Re: 550 idle noise (gearbox)
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2019, 12:06:20 PM »
Normal idle is around 1200 when warmed up, ..no it's not clutch basket I know that sound,  I should take video.. a year ago thinking it was a gearbox problem I split the cases and replaced the gearbox used unit low miles....same problem noise. 😣 I will try moving mixture screws see how it goes.. thanks
When you replaced the gearbox unit, did you measure the play between gear contact faces?

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline uksparky

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Re: 550 idle noise (gearbox)
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2019, 12:33:42 PM »
Good point there TwoTired .. no I did not measure just looked at the teeth no signs of wear, ..i think the higher comp pistons and cam don't help, in the future i might go back to stock and do that cb650 primary chain tensioner conversion ... thanks for the help guys
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Offline Tracksnblades1

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Re: 550 idle noise (gearbox)
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2019, 01:46:47 PM »
Spark,
An afterthought. Do you have a lightened flywheel rotor?
Some claim stock weight flywheels cancel crankshaft harmonics more effectively.
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Offline uksparky

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Re: 550 idle noise (gearbox)
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2019, 02:05:10 PM »
Spark,
An afterthought. Do you have a lightened flywheel rotor?
Some claim stock weight flywheels cancel crankshaft harmonics more effectively.

Stock flywheel no mods there

Afternoon update..
Looking back at TwoTireds message i had a bit of pondering lol... so getting it warmed up in my garage with a fan on the engine i did a bit of tweeking.... checking the timing at idle it was a few degrees retard so getting that right on plus checking the full advance timing mark around 2800 rpm that also was on the mark now, one of the carbs needed a  half turn richer. Idle was around 1500, i will leave it at that until road test getting it good and hot, i am sure i will need to adjust thumb screw to lower rpms.
Looking back i had a problem with pinging under load, thats how i messed up the idle, and timing what i found was rolling on the throttle around 30 mph 5th gear caused a ping sound just when it reached 3k full advance ..lower gear needed....So after a twenty mile run coming off country road to freeway i wait about two minutes at idle to cross to the southbound lane...engine is hot now... pulling away in first getting up to 3k ping noise full advance.. over that rpm its ok, same thing in second gear getting past 3k all is ok.. thinking about it the ping only seems to be coming from one cylinder not the four, i could be wrong... spark plugs all brown tan with plug chop..... not sure what the compression is with them domed pistons plus the cam..i will say one thing its bloody fast when it gets around and over 8k rpms.
So bottom line is i have too much compression and cam....if i take away any of the advance i could loose power, is full advance 30 degrees! .. how could i make it 20
« Last Edit: January 22, 2019, 07:24:42 AM by uksparky »
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Offline Deltarider

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Re: 550 idle noise (gearbox)
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2019, 01:34:55 AM »
Idle was around 1500, i will leave it at that until road test getting it good and hot, i am sure i will need to adjust thumb screw to lower rpms.
Always be aware that the onboard tacho might not be accurate. I once worked on a CB550K3 that showed 1400 rpm on its tacho where it was a real 1000 rpm on a known good electronic tachometer, so I wouldn't be surprised if your 1500 will turn out to be a true 1100 rpm... You wouldnt be the first one that solved noisy sounds by just adjusting the idle to a true 1100 rpm.
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Offline uksparky

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Re: 550 idle noise (gearbox)
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2019, 07:27:29 AM »
Idle was around 1500, i will leave it at that until road test getting it good and hot, i am sure i will need to adjust thumb screw to lower rpms.
Always be aware that the onboard tacho might not be accurate. I once worked on a CB550K3 that showed 1400 rpm on its tacho where it was a real 1000 rpm on a known good electronic tachometer, so I wouldn't be surprised if your 1500 will turn out to be a true 1100 rpm... You wouldnt be the first one that solved noisy sounds by just adjusting the idle to a true 1100 rpm.

Thanks Deltarider  i am sure its off a bit coming up to 41 years old in April... i did a modify to my above post on the timing advance
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