Topic: Understanding cb500 Kick Starter. Stuck?

[Fezzler]

I had so much fun learning to fix up a 78 550K4 last winter and riding it that I bought a disassembled 71 500K0 to give me something to do this winter.

Just getting started with the engine by cleaning, inspecting and a few gasket replacements. Engine is off frame and on stand. Working toward compression check.  The first thing I did was remove the stator cover, put a socket wrench on the crankshaft bolt, and made sure the 500 engine turns.  It turns nicely and easily and compress seems good, I'll measure it soon.  Phew.

Meanwhile, I noticed the kick starter arm seems to lock up.  The engine is upside down in the stand and the oil pan is off.  Looking down into the engine at the kick starter shaft and assembly, and removing the clutch cover, I can tell from videos, pictures, the service and parts manuals, and an extra unassembled engine I have that the kick starter arm / assembly is correct and seems to work as designed.  Push on the arm and the kick starter ratchet turns and engages the kick starter pinion. But, unlike turning the crankshaft with a socket wrench easily, the kick starter doesn't seem to have the leverage to turn the engine when the transmission is in neutral.  I assume I am in neutral as the front sprocket turns freely and easy with one finger. 

May also be important to note that the left crankcase cover is also off, which means the clutch lifter rod is not engaged with the clutch lifter/clutch adjuster assembly.  Not sure if that makes a difference here.

I know on my 550, once I had the engine unseized, I could easily turn the engine with the kick starter arm.

I'm trying to figure this out before I do compression check.  I've gotten some good ideas from a few more knowledgeable than I, but I figured I'll put this out there in the event someone else is familiar.

Is this normal?  Do I have a kick starter or transmission issue to be concerned with?  Is it not turning the engine because the clutch lifter is not installed?  One more point, if I turn the engine with the socket wrench on the crankshaft bolt with one hand and push the kick starter arm with my other, it will spin its full capability.  Here are a few videos to demonstrate.

 

Also, if helpful, in the picture.  Red arrow is the kick starter assembly, green is the front sprocket, blue is the transmission, brown is crank shaft.  If it is not normal for the kick starter to be non-functional in this state, should I pull the clutch basket and assembly to see if something is not installed, missing or bent there?  But if that were the case, why is the engine turning freely from crank shaft?

[Scott S]

* This is a cross post from an email thread Fezzler and I have going. I'm hoping by pasting it here that I will spur a response. Maybe someone will tell me I'm way off base and canb shed some insight *

Once again...take anything I say with a grain of salt. I have next to zero experience here (inside the transmission/behind the clutch basket/installing a kick start mechanism in a 500/55).


 When you pull the clutch lever on a 500, it lifts the arm on the worm gear and lifts that gear out of its seat. It pushes on the rod and the rod pushes the "hat" on the clutch basket out. This expands or stretches the springs and pushes the clutch plates and discs apart....or at least lets them NOT be pressed together by spring pressure.
 
 The only problem I have with your clutch theory is that you don't kick start a bike with the clutch lever pulled. If you do that, nothing happens. I just went out in the garage and confirmed this on the 550. In neutral, clutch out and and kick....engine turns with compression. In neutral, clutch in and kick.....it just kicks through. You can't start the bike like that. Go try it on your bike.


 Now...that said...there may be something in there that I don't know about or understand and I'm missing the point completely.
 By installing the LH cover and rod, you're doing nothing....just like it's in N, clutch out...kick. The only way installing the LH cover would actuate the clutch is to pull the lever and lift the worm gear/press on the rod.  Maybe the problem is in the clutch basket itself?
 Hell....take the engine off the stand and put it on the ground. Have Lovely Wife steady it and try kicking it with your foot.

[calj737]

Have Lovely Wife steady it and try kicking it with your foot.

I’m sorry, this is NOT a good idea. I’ve met his lovely wife, and she is lovely. BUT, my impression is that if there’s anything in the garage that she is invited to “kick”, it will be Fezzler. And that won’t turn out well... 

[Stev-o]

Have Lovely Wife steady it and try kicking it with your foot.

I’m sorry, this is NOT a good idea. I’ve met his lovely wife, and she is lovely. BUT, my impression is that if there’s anything in the garage that she is invited to “kick”, it will be Fezzler. And that won’t turn out well... 

Now thats the video I want to see - Fezz getting his butt kicked by the Mrs!

Are the plugs out?  If yes, the motor should easily be "kicked over" by hand.

[Fezzler]

Have Lovely Wife steady it and try kicking it with your foot.

I’m sorry, this is NOT a good idea. I’ve met his lovely wife, and she is lovely. BUT, my impression is that if there’s anything in the garage that she is invited to “kick”, it will be Fezzler. And that won’t turn out well... 

Now thats the video I want to see - Fezz getting his butt kicked by the Mrs!

Are the plugs out?  If yes, the motor should easily be "kicked over" by hand.

Yea, plugs out. 

Mrs. let me get second ride to kick me INTO the garage for the winter.  I may have to coax her into the garage, but a free kick may just do it.

Good counsel all. 

[Fezzler]

So I plan to pull the clutch/basket etc. to inspect while I have the engine on the stand.  I agree that logically, that is not the reason for the kick starter binding.
Then I plan to button her up, fill with some oil to let it soak and do the compression check.  After that, I'll remove from stand and see if I can budge with leg and not my spindly arms mounted on a pear-shaped frame.

[Marissa]

Fezzler, did you ever figure out the cause of this? I’m currently having similar issues.

[Fezzler]

Fezzler, did you ever figure out the cause of this? I’m currently having similar issues.

Hi Marissa - You helped me out once (swingarm bushing advice).

No, I never figured it out.  I asked the forum.  I uploaded videos. I asked some of the most senior members.  I studied parts list.  I even have an extra engine that is apart that allowed me to examine the way the parts work and is assembled.  I never figured it out.  Everything I saw said it should work.   

I just pushed forward with my build figuring I'll rely on the electric start or discover something down the road.

I know not very scientific or helpful.   

[Arcburn]

Fezzler,

 I appreciate your post and videos!

Did you get any farther on finding problem with this issue since your last post on the stuck kick starter? I have a CB500 and am having the same problem. Everything inside looks fine.

[bryanj]

This has been known to happen if the layshaft needle roller bearing fails but you have to split the crankcases to inspect it.

[Fezzler]

Fezzler,

 I appreciate your post and videos!

Did you get any farther on finding problem with this issue since your last post on the stuck kick starter? I have a CB500 and am having the same problem. Everything inside looks fine.

Nope.  I researched, spoke to those more knowledgeable than I, compared to a working shaft - couldn't figure it out.  So the advice I got was move on.  So I did.  I will revisit later.  Bike is a roller.  Just put on handle bars.  I got stalled.  I need to install stator, wiring, carbs and get tank cleaned and soon vroom vroom test.

[Fezzler]

This has been known to happen if the layshaft needle roller bearing fails but you have to split the crankcases to inspect it.

This is probably it.  Especially if old grease is in there.  I have experienced where old grease on these bikes get to be like a strong weld.
I think the folks who told me to move forward may have though that bearing may give when engine gets hot?

Possibility?

[spotty]

i have a similar problem with my 750K7, when i got it the kicker would not move, started investigations by removing the clutch ( and finding extra plates and 2 metals together ) , once the clutch was out it kicked over fine, put the clutch back in and it still kicked over, left it a week and it had locked up again, took it apart and it freed up again, put it back together, fine for a week......
ended up pulling the motor for an upside down strip down and found nothing wrong, its still in pieces cos i've got another motor that i know works so will wait until another day to solve unless someone can point me in another direction...

[bryanj]

K7 clutch pack is different fron early ones and has what looks like 2 steel plates riveted together.

500 needle roller is lubed by engine oil not grease, its the cage holding the rollers apart that beaks up.

[spotty]

K7 clutch pack is different fron early ones and has what looks like 2 steel plates riveted together.

shall have a look into that but the two steels weren't riveted, they came apart

[Arcburn]

This has been known to happen if the layshaft needle roller bearing fails but you have to split the crankcases to inspect it.

Thanks for the suggestion Bryanj, I'll have to dig in deeper. I've pulled the oil pan off and it's very clean. No metallic in the oil or any signs of metal, so it may not have damaged anything else if that it the problem.

[Fezzler]

Update:

While working on my 1971 cb500 motor while it was on the engine stand, I could not get the kickstarter to work.  I researched the problem, asked forum members, posted a video, compared the mechanism to one in another engine I had.  Everything looked good but I could not get the kickstarter arm to move full range.  It was stuck.

A very wise forum member that I trust said "just move on."  At first I thought that was a mistake as I eventually want to kickstart the motor and I should be patient and solve it now.  But I trust this guy as he has never steered me wrong. 

I moved on.  Cleaned and painted engine.  Replaced gaskets.  Polished covers.  Replace bolts with allen bolts.  Put engine in freshly powder coated frame.  Trued wheels.  New tires.  Brakes.  Chain.  Installed handlebars and center stand.  Etc.  I moved on.

Well fast forward a few months and I replaced the oil in the engine after I got the crank case cover on and did some additional work.  I was thinking, oh what the heck.  Maybe I'll put on the kickstarter arm/pedal and see if it moves.  Maybe using the leverage of my legs and 260lbs it will free up.  I figure it would not as I chased this issue for weeks. 

What do you know, worked great.  Smooth.  Good compression.  Full range.  I don't know what the issue was on the stand (no oil in engine while on stand I suspect was creating enough seizure of gears?) but I'm glad it is working and I'm glad I just moved on!

Now to keep moving on.  (Adjust cam chain tensioner; install carbs; air box; instrument gauges; connect electrical;  clean fuel tank; etc.  Vroom vroom by August.)

[Stev-o]

Good news!  We must know Fez, who is this very wise forum member?!

[Fezzler]

Like you Steve-O, he is the epitome of both humbleness and helpfulness and therefore shall remain unnamed and anonymous.

Fear not my two-wheeled friend, if you and others are in need of his counsel and expertise, he will appear, share and care.  His sage wisdom is dispatched clearly and succinctly with much thought and is rarely shrouded in harsh or distracting jocularity.  But he will not weigh in just to read his own words if other equally or more experienced colleagues have adequately address the questions at hand.  And he is also open that his point of view or solution may not be the only path to motorcycle restoration bliss and even on rare occasions as information merits will concede another approach is superior to his own.

But be on notice, he will not for long suffer a fool who harshly or rudely challenges his kindly offered insights.  Challengers and disputers that do not displaying an effort has been made to listen and learn or act with the civility of fellowship will face a stiff rebuke delivered with much class as only a true Southern gentleman can.