Author Topic: why this talk of 750f top being bad?  (Read 2652 times)

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Rocking-M

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why this talk of 750f top being bad?
« on: January 24, 2007, 04:49:27 PM »
Why so much talk of the 750F top end being bad?
Mine has 25k on it and uses no oil, it does leak a little ;)

Why can't a good machinist make other valve guides work in it
if I ever need it? Other valves for that matter can be made to work I would
think also. Just curious.

Offline scondon

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Re: why this talk of 750f top being bad?
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2007, 05:01:19 PM »
   I think it has to do with the angle of the valves which causes the accelerated wear. I think Honda offered to replace the original guides with stronger ones and that was supposed to "fix" things.

   The reason they get such a bad rap today is that what few parts there are available(valves, guides) are very expensive and not available from Honda. New F2 pistons are not available anywhere at any price(I don't think). So repairing a stock F2 motor makes little sense financially and finding parts to do it might prove frustrating for the casual enthusiast.
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Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: why this talk of 750f top being bad?
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2007, 05:24:56 PM »
Oh #$%* :o :o.........anyone want to buy my newley aquired F2 ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Rocking-M

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Re: why this talk of 750f top being bad?
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2007, 05:46:06 PM »
since they're so sorry Sam, I'll buy it for scrap :)

Offline MRieck

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Re: why this talk of 750f top being bad?
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2007, 05:52:26 PM »
It's not the F's...it's the F2/3's. They are a real pain in the ass. I did one for jtb...pistons, head...everything BUT no more. His does run great as I've been told. ;)
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Rocking-M

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Re: why this talk of 750f top being bad?
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2007, 06:23:37 PM »
Sounds like I better hop up the spare k motor I have then?

So, can over sized valves be fitted to get it to flow like the F head?

Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: why this talk of 750f top being bad?
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2007, 06:37:05 PM »
I think they already have them.

Sam.
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Offline jtb

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Re: why this talk of 750f top being bad?
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2007, 08:09:09 PM »
Rocking M,  Mine does run great,,, NOW.  I'm kind of looking for a K motor that's not too far away.  I either need a motor to hop up, or just a new project.  And some place to hide it so Martha won't kill me. :D :D :D
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Offline MRieck

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Re: why this talk of 750f top being bad?
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2007, 04:38:52 AM »
Sounds like I better hop up the spare k motor I have then?

So, can over sized valves be fitted to get it to flow like the F head?
Yes
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Offline Lumbee

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Re: why this talk of 750f top being bad?
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2007, 08:13:09 AM »
I've had 2 F's, <insert joke here> and other than carb woes I have no complaints with the motor/head.  30K on the first, and 18K on my current rider.  I think reletive to the K's you can say they had problems.  However if I can get 30K out of a head before I start having problems, then I can live with that.  How expensive is a F2/3 head on Ebay...$50?  I've got an extra head in the shop, so if I start burning oil I'll pull the motor and replace it.

...hey Rock, did u paint u'r bike?  Its looking good in u'r avitar!   :o
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Offline andy750

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Re: why this talk of 750f top being bad?
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2007, 08:17:22 AM »
I had an F2 for a couple of years in Britain - rebuilt engine, rebuilt bike - looked great, but burned a quart of oil/500 miles. I rode it back and forth from Scotland to England and even took it over to Europe (around France) - just kept adding oil. Eventually (after I sold it) the guy who bought it was riding along the highway and the engine seized. Not a good end for the bike (but he was ok). Just my F2 experience....Ill stick with the Ks from now on.

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1. CB750K4: Long distance bike, 17 countries and counting...2001 - Trans-USA-Mexico, 2003 - European Tour, 2004 - SOHC Easy Rider Trip , 2008 - Adirondack Tour 2-up , 2013 - Tail of the Dragon Tour , 2017: 836 kit install and bottom end rebuild. And rebirth: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,173213.msg2029836.html#msg2029836
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3. Yamaha Tenere T700 2022

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Offline MRieck

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Re: why this talk of 750f top being bad?
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2007, 08:28:45 AM »
I've had 2 F's, <insert joke here> and other than carb woes I have no complaints with the motor/head.  30K on the first, and 18K on my current rider.  I think reletive to the K's you can say they had problems.  However if I can get 30K out of a head before I start having problems, then I can live with that.  How expensive is a F2/3 head on Ebay...$50?  I've got an extra head in the shop, so if I start burning oil I'll pull the motor and replace it.

...hey Rock, did u paint u'r bike?  Its looking good in u'r avitar!   :o
  The heads are reasonable but usually the valve faces are beat to hell (secondary to loose guides)which requires replacement. OEM pieces are discontinued and aftermarket valves are really expensive secondary to the CB's wierd stem diameter
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Offline Geeto67

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Re: why this talk of 750f top being bad?
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2007, 10:09:00 AM »
Most of the legend of f2/f3's having bad top ends comes from honda services techs back in the day, who saw a lot of these bikes with problems because, quite frankly like all new motorcycles a good deal of them were abused right off the showroom floor. Yes there is an inherent design flaw that will eventually lead to oil consumption, but like any machine if you take care of it it will last you longer than if you run it into the ground. I have 33,000 on one 78F and 6,000 on another and don't have a problem with either right now. The 78F is the fastest cb750  with the best brakes (espically when you lighten that pig up) and anyone who snubs one is missing out on a fun expirence.

BTW I spoke with my local cb750 guru (who does the jobs that I can't) and he said redoing the valve seats was no big deal. A couple of years ago he had some made for the F to do another customers bike and probably could do it again.
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Rocking-M

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Re: why this talk of 750f top being bad?
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2007, 01:28:15 PM »
Hey Lumbee good to hear about your F experience, mine is still bone stock I reckon,
don't know a lot about the history of the bike really. Bought it from is a preacher in West Virginia.

Yea I painted it and the Ferrari red made it at least 29mph faster  ;D

Hey Geeto67, pics of that GTO (I assume that's what your moniker means)
I think the thing I need to do is find a spare F head and go over to the car building buddies shop
and run it by him. If y'all see or hear tell of one let me know.

Offline Hockers Choppers

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Re: why this talk of 750f top being bad?
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2007, 01:44:03 PM »
I think a set of rings cost about as much as 1/2 of a big bore kit and you can't even buy a hot cam or good retainers for the f2-f3 topend. But the rest of the engine is very good! Thats why My 78 f3 is getting the k topend with bigbore, cam, porting, retainers, etc. Yes, they ran good stock, but thats about as far as you can go with them. Unless you spend major bucks!!
The thing about common sense is that, it's not that common.

1978 CB750F SUPERSPORT 850cc, cam, porting, dyna ign, cr29's lotsa elbow grease and $$'s. Worth ever penny!!  (S0ld)

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Offline MRieck

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Re: why this talk of 750f top being bad?
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2007, 02:16:28 PM »
Most of the legend of f2/f3's having bad top ends comes from honda services techs back in the day, who saw a lot of these bikes with problems because, quite frankly like all new motorcycles a good deal of them were abused right off the showroom floor. Yes there is an inherent design flaw that will eventually lead to oil consumption, but like any machine if you take care of it it will last you longer than if you run it into the ground. I have 33,000 on one 78F and 6,000 on another and don't have a problem with either right now. The 78F is the fastest cb750  with the best brakes (espically when you lighten that pig up) and anyone who snubs one is missing out on a fun expirence.

BTW I spoke with my local cb750 guru (who does the jobs that I can't) and he said redoing the valve seats was no big deal. A couple of years ago he had some made for the F to do another customers bike and probably could do it again.
I agree...cutting the seats is no big deal. Good custom valves aren't cheap. I think Dynoman advertises a set for the F2/3 and it's almost 400.00. A 5mm valve conversion kit would be nice for the F2/3 as Kibblewhite already make a 34mm intake. You'd need the large exhaust but they could do it. It would be good as the valves are much lighter and you can get good springs, Ti retainers. The lighter valves would really help the wear issues
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Offline MRieck

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Re: why this talk of 750f top being bad?
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2007, 02:18:49 PM »
I think a set of rings cost about as much as 1/2 of a big bore kit and you can't even buy a hot cam or good retainers for the f2-f3 topend. But the rest of the engine is very good! Thats why My 78 f3 is getting the k topend with bigbore, cam, porting, retainers, etc. Yes, they ran good stock, but thats about as far as you can go with them. Unless you spend major bucks!!
R/D springs make springs and Ti retainers for the F2/3 but the kit is something like 500.00....maybe more. I forget. I'm not a fan of R/D stuff in general
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Offline Hockers Choppers

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Re: why this talk of 750f top being bad?
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2007, 05:06:33 PM »
Is $900 really worth it on the f3 top end? I don't have that much in my whole engine......yet!!!! :-\ :'( :'( :'( :'(
The thing about common sense is that, it's not that common.

1978 CB750F SUPERSPORT 850cc, cam, porting, dyna ign, cr29's lotsa elbow grease and $$'s. Worth ever penny!!  (S0ld)

05 VTX1800F darkside
cb750 k1

Offline Hockers Choppers

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Re: why this talk of 750f top being bad?
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2007, 01:23:03 PM »
Now I do!! ???
The thing about common sense is that, it's not that common.

1978 CB750F SUPERSPORT 850cc, cam, porting, dyna ign, cr29's lotsa elbow grease and $$'s. Worth ever penny!!  (S0ld)

05 VTX1800F darkside
cb750 k1

Offline oldfart

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Re: why this talk of 750f top being bad?
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2007, 02:19:23 PM »
Most of the legend of f2/f3's having bad top ends comes from honda services techs back in the day, who saw a lot of these bikes with problems because, quite frankly like all new motorcycles a good deal of them were abused right off the showroom floor. Yes there is an inherent design flaw that will eventually lead to oil consumption

Top ends? Abuse?  Eventual oil consumption?  Man, this stuff is so far off the mark I can't hardly believe it.  Do you have any idea of what was going on in 1978? When Honda revised the engine for the 77 model year, they took a trick from the Chevy builder's handbook and re-angled the exhaust valves to make room for larger valves.  A similar thing was done to the 650 SOHC in 1979, and both cylinder heads suffer the same problem.  The exhaust valve guides wear prematurely, very prematurely, as in 4,000 to 6,000 miles.  I was there, both as a factory warranty analyst and at different times as a dealer tech.  I have shared this before but the Honda rep for the L.A. area back then, Fred Germain, revealed to me that Honda responded to the problem by coming out with harder valve guides.  You had to check the guides in your parts stock with a certain size drill bit, to tell them apart.  The harder ones were so hard they were pre-reamed.  The drill bit had nothig to do with drilling, just a sizer.  Number 1 -- it isn't the whole top end, just the exhaust valve guides.  The valves will rattle like a pencil in a coke bottle within an extremely short time if the exhaust guides are original.  Number 2 -- Abuse can be blamed for a lot of things, on any product, and rightly so in many cases, but not in this case, not even a little bit.  Number 3 -- oil consumption was the least of the rider's worries when the valve started moving back and forth in the guide 1/16 inch!  Check your facts.

Below I have included two factory Honda warranty contact team (SWAT) log pages.  One shows the F2, the other shows the CB650.


   
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Offline Lumbee

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Re: why this talk of 750f top being bad?
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2007, 03:26:01 PM »
...OF, u've confirmed my suspicions that the valve guide wear issue is truly overstated.  There are way to many F2/3's out there in good running order with 30+k miles on these for the issue to be as bad as some say.  I've had two (F2 &F3) with no worries.  Your facts make more sense to me...that there was a problem at some point when these bikes were manufactured, but that Honda caught the problem before to many bikes went out the door.  And many of those that did have the problem were fixed by dealers.
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