Author Topic: PD Crabs too lean  (Read 1212 times)

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Offline TurtleSnifferII

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PD Crabs too lean
« on: March 24, 2019, 04:18:38 PM »
Im having problems with my 80 cb650 with PD50B carbs. The main-jets are 95 (used to be 90 stock) and pilot screws 1.25 turns in on engine side. Stock needles and slow jets. Stock airbox with well oiled K&N. Stock 4in4 pipes. The problem is that the bike runs fine nice and smooth when cold and start off acceleration is good and gradual all under quarter throttle. When hot after 10 mins or so of riding the bikes idles stays at 1400rpm when but when cold idles at 1000rpm.  When starting off in 1st the bike starts to go then hits a wall immediately almost like I smashed the brake, I have to quickly slip into second and open the throttle more which jerks the bike. Makes me look like a nooblet. When cold it doesnt do this at all.

I thought it was running lean since the engine warm sounds kinda "dry". Did a plug chop starting with mainjet and got this. I pulled over and switched to new plugs when hot, then ran the bike at 5th full throttle reaching 75mph before I had to cut it. Traveled half a mile at WOT. What do you guy's think?

My fuel might have ethanol in it and is Cheveron 89 octane. I run the same brand gas and from the same station in my FI BMW and plugs looked a little white and clean from ethanol. I assume the color should look similar to the bmw plug.


Offline BomberMann650

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Re: PD Crabs too lean
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2019, 06:14:26 AM »
That plug doesn't look like it fired at all.

Be surprised how well these bikes run on two cylinders.

Offline ekpent

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Re: PD Crabs too lean
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2019, 06:51:45 AM »
  Nuthin' worse then a lean ole' skinny crab !!  ;D ;D

Offline TurtleSnifferII

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Re: PD Crabs too lean
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2019, 11:11:50 AM »
Its firing along with the other three I checked.  My idle seems to be a little richer than than midjet and mainjet and am wondering if this is the lurch I'm getting. I start off in slightly tad rich slow jet then transition to a lean mixture which could that "wall" that I hit when the bike is hot.

In PD carbs, if I put larger mainjets in does it richen the midrange too? Also, whats the proper procedure for idle plug chop? How long do I let it idle before pulling the plugs?

Offline TwoTired

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Re: PD Crabs too lean
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2019, 11:54:44 AM »
The slide needle and its jet are supposed to control the midrange throttle positions.  Note this is different than an RPM reference, due to the mechanical slide design.  However, the main jet does also feed the slide needle and its jet orifice.

For adjustment, the main is usually selected first, as that supplies the maximum fuel demand at WOT under load.  The slide needle and jet then uses what is available from main and further meters that to supply needs at mid throttle positions.

All the above bleed some at idle position, as the slow jet does at higher throttle positions.  So, there is some interaction among the fuel metering devices.  I set the idle mixture last, so it will work well with the other settings best for road operations.

Carbs are dumb to the engine needs.  If exhaust design or induction design changes from what was delivered stock, stock settings unlikely apply.  And, the new configuration needs must be compensated by changes in carb delivery.

For the idle chop.  Must be at op temp and idle long enough to show a deposit pattern on the plugs.  If too rich, it won't take long, if you are too lean, it will take forever.  For practical reasons, you wouldn't want the plugs to load up at stop lights, or after, say, a 5 minute idle.  If it does, you'll be blipping the throttle repeatedly to keep the plugs clear for the green light event.  Lots of Harleys need this.

Cheers,

P.S.  It's really a shame about your underfed crabs.  I've been able to avoid them all my life, though. :D
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline TurtleSnifferII

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Re: PD Crabs too lean
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2019, 01:02:27 PM »
Thanks for the reply TwoTired. Ill pick the main jet first but what sizes would you recommend trying?  I was thinking of buying a set 105s and 110s. I kinda dont want to go up in single increments since those genuine Keihins can get pricey last time I checked. Going from 90 to 95 didn't to much If I remember.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: PD Crabs too lean
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2019, 04:04:09 PM »
If you have the stock airbox and exhaust, I'm leery about using something other than the stock jets.

It seems there is something else causing leaness.  Your carbs have accelerator pumps, right?  You should be able to have a very lean idle mix with that.  If it is working as designed it really ought to give you pretty good throttle response and power.  Have you checked that it is delivering a good strong stream in each port when the throttle is twisted?

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline TurtleSnifferII

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Re: PD Crabs too lean
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2019, 05:19:12 PM »
Yes the accelerator pump works well. I replaced it about a year ago and checked it last in November through the passages. At any throttle range slow idle or midrange I have to hang on to the bars  ;D. The problem appears when I just roll on the throttle normally  just after a quarter turn starting out. Only when warmed up you feel it. Everything is stock except for the air K&N filter.

Offline jgger

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Re: PD Crabs too lean
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2019, 06:54:49 PM »
I thought you had the GM ignition on there, or was that another bike?
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Offline TurtleSnifferII

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Re: PD Crabs too lean
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2019, 08:09:51 PM »
I thought you had the GM ignition on there, or was that another bike?
Damn, I've been had. Im surprised you remembered that since I dont post much.

Yeah I still have the hei modules instead of the CDIs on there. There pretty much giving me a slightly better spark but im still running stock plug gaps and stuff. Not sure if it has much to do with it. I have nothing to compare to because back then the CDIs were no good and were constantly misfiring and carbon fouling. Put in the modules and then that changed.

Offline jgger

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Re: PD Crabs too lean
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2019, 09:53:44 PM »
Only because if/when I ever get a chance to get my 650 running I am interested in doing the same thing........you are my hero! Hahaha
"The SOHC4 uses a computer located about 2-3 ft above the seat.  Those sometimes need additional programming." -stolen from  Two Tired

The difference between an ass kisser and brown noser is merely depth perception.  Stolen from RAFster122s

Offline TurtleSnifferII

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Re: PD Crabs too lean
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2019, 07:25:10 PM »
So whats the verdict here? Should unplug the vent tube hoses? 110 main jets? I forgot to mention my bike never came with an airfilter cover. Those carb vent tubes were also t'd together but no hose coming from the tee. My bike also was in the numbers listed in the service bulletin below but looks like someone messed with it. Help  :'(

Whats wrong with your 650 jgger?

Offline jgger

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Re: PD Crabs too lean
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2019, 10:05:56 PM »
The po crashed it in a ditch and busted the case on the ignition side. He got pissed at it and  busted the gauges and head light. It has been setting outside and the rats are most of the wires out of it. And the exhaust and seat are rotted off of it. Scottly hooked me up with some pick up coils and  advancer.  I'm slowly sourcing parts as money and time allows..................other than that she is ready to hit the road! After tires, battery, paint, chain, carb clean, gasket and seal job, you know-EVERYTHING!

Some day. Until then I will live vicariously through you guys. I have waited till I'm 66 to have my mid life crisis,  so that means I will live to be about 132, so I have plenty of time.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2019, 10:11:10 PM by jgger »
"The SOHC4 uses a computer located about 2-3 ft above the seat.  Those sometimes need additional programming." -stolen from  Two Tired

The difference between an ass kisser and brown noser is merely depth perception.  Stolen from RAFster122s

Offline TurtleSnifferII

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Re: PD Crabs too lean
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2019, 11:31:20 AM »
Looks like I'm on my own then since TT bailed on me. I always seem to stump the experts. Ill try some bigger mains.

Jgger, he smashed it up after HE crashed it? Sound reasonable. I was 19 or 20 when I got my 650.  Its taken me 3 years to bring it back to life and sort out the problems that were wrong with it which was EVERYTHING. Oh and the fun of finding the rare and elusive choke cable hook that the PO broke.

Offline Nicklopic

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Re: PD Crabs too lean
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2019, 12:10:18 PM »
I ran into plenty of running issues with my 650 trying to get it sorted out. You shouldddd have plenty of fuel with the larger jets despite everything being stock. Since you've probably had the carbs on and off a number of times now there's a chance the carb boots are ripped. It would cause your hanging idle and a lean condition. (mine looked fine visually but new boots solve a few issues) Are your float heights correct also?

I also ran into a crap load of running issues that I thought were carb related due to the GM HEI my bike had, modules and GM waste spark coils. Couldn't find the right combination of parts and just did an ignition from C5 instead. Got it running fantastic.
80' CB650
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: PD Crabs too lean
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2019, 05:48:15 PM »
Not all accelerator pump rods are the same length.  Some are shorter, too short, actually.  Anyway, there is a tab clearance setting in the Honda shop manual for the CB750.  I don't have a Honda shop manual for the CB650.  So check your manual for that adjustment.  Likely the same as for the 750, I'd guess.  Check that the accel pump rod is really getting moved when you twist the throttle just a little bit.  At what throttle position does it really activate?

Further, check for a leaky check valve in the pump which can also delay the fuel shot upon throttle twist.

Before shotgunning with bigger mains (low percentage of success, I'd say).  Do a full load WOT throttle plug chop on clean plugs and read the deposits on your plug insulators.  That will tell you if you need bigger main jets.   But, if you are trying to solve a part throttle issue, mark your throttle and tell us exactly what throttle position you are experiencing issues.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Online dave500

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Re: PD Crabs too lean
« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2019, 02:33:44 AM »
I went to a restaurant and asked the waiter "do you serve crabs here?"he replied we serve anyone!

Offline TwoTired

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Re: PD Crabs too lean
« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2019, 11:08:54 AM »
I went to a restaurant and asked the waiter "do you serve crabs here?"he replied we serve anyone!

I'm surprised he didn't ask what fuel they needed.


pah dum dup
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.