Topic: timing trouble with charlie's ignition

[rupaulpierce]

Instructions say to mount the rotor with the holes facing 1-4, but I got backfiring that way so I reversed it so holes face 2-3. It appears with this orientation the magnets themselves face 1-4.

Seems like it improved idle and feels nice at low RPM, but bogs down when you rev up. I reinstalled it three times, getting the timing as close as I could, same problem. It doesn't seem like 1-4 and 2-3 fire at EXACTLY the same point, but it seemed within reason for static timing. Should I fiddle with the pick ups as i've seen advised with the dyna units?

[rupaulpierce]

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[Deltarider]

It doesn't seem like 1-4 and 2-3 fire at EXACTLY the same point...

I don't recognise this one, but I've heard of aftermarket rotors that new showed 2-3^o difference between 1+4 and 2+3... What's the brand?

[rupaulpierce]

It's from Charlie's Place.

Here's a link to Charlie's instructions: https://www.charlies-place.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/350-400F-Installation.pdf

To his credit, I emailed him after 10pm EST on Sunday and he was responding to me in California: " It is a nuance of the picture. The rotor in the picture actually has the magnets in the holes whereas the rotor you received has magnets that are obscured on that side. Just flip the rotor 180 degrees. All will be fine then. It is probably a jetting issue. Very often when we replace the ignition and coils on these bikes we find they run much leaner afterwards. We run #40’s on the idle circuit and #80’s on the mains. The other thing to check is that the rotor is not binding in any way on the advance mechanism.  I install these on CB400F’s all the time (and sell them worldwide to owners of those bikes) and those are the two most common issues. Let me know if you have further questions. "

So I got the rotor on the right way through trial and error, but still have the stuttering problem at higher RPM. The rotor seems to turn freely when bolted down on the advance. I can only turn it a few degrees by hand though. Maybe it it a jetting problem?

[rupaulpierce]

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[rupaulpierce]

Realizing I'm confused about what it means for the rotor to "bind" on the advance mechanism. I can turn the rotor by hand, but it catches the advance after a few degrees. It seems like that's how it's supposed to work. How much movement should I see on the advance mechanism when turning the rotor by hand?

[rotortiller]

Advance units should have no binding and operate with full travel (possible) both dynamically and statically. Lack of accuracy between 1/4 and 2/3 is removed by independent adjustment of the sensors or a sensor from the backing plate main adjustment. Changing from points to solid state ignition has nothing to do with jetting. If the bike ran fine with points it should do the same with a different ignition system. If the rotor is too thick and it binds when you tighten the nut down you may have to sand off a bit of material. I have swapped points, hondaman and tytronics units etc on the same bike and they all run the same.

[rupaulpierce]

Thanks. It’s not binding. I’ll redo the timing and try  fiddling with the pickups to dial it in and see if that addresses the problem. I was also surprised that Charlie suggested that re jetting might be necessary.


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[Jore]

Seems pretty similar to the tytronics unit, I had a similar issue with the tytronics unit on my 400, have you checked the pin on the back of the advancer? Mine was kinda bent and 2-3 was a few degrees off of 1-4.

[HondaMan]

Here's another tip to help you hunt things down: if the timing runs slower on one side from the other, that pair of cylinders will have lighter sparkplugs. If it runs too slow overall, never reaching full advance, then all 4 plugs will have a lighter color. I have met other mechanics who think this means it is "too lean" after altering timing...what is actually happening is: the less-burned fuel is cleaning the plugs a little bit as the engine runs.

[rupaulpierce]

Thanks Hondaman. I’ll pull the plugs tomorrow, it just started raining.

I swapped out the advance mechanism with a spare, and redid the timing. I fiddled with the 2-3 pickup to dial it in. No improvement. The choke makes it worse, so as suspected I don’t think jetting is the hang up.


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[rupaulpierce]

If you zoom in on the above photo, you can see that the 2-3 pickup, the left one, is adjusted almost out of its range of motion. Could the alignment of the pickups just be bungled and causing the gap issues at higher RPM I’ve seen HondaMan reference in his critiques of The Dyna S?


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[HondaMan]

Maybe check the points advancers' shaft for bent-ness? It's real common on these bikes.
When a magnetic pickup (like these) is moved closer to its magnet, it will trigger OFF earlier in degrees: you can see this by just moving it in-out at the same location. As it moves further away, it is OFF for a shorter duration, too.

[rupaulpierce]

Advancer pin and shaft look straight. I also already switched advancers just in case.

I didn’t like how far off center the 2-3 pickup was, so I centered it and then set the 2-3 timing, then 1-4. I had to shift both pickups a bit, but now they’re more evenly distributed on the plate. Timing seems solid, but still have the same symptoms. It seems to run better up to where the power cuts out, but it does so more dramatically now, significant loss of power at a specific point on the throttle with some backfiring.

Plugs are dark and smell of gas.


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[rupaulpierce]

HondaMan wins again. 1-4 are dark as above, 2-3 look good.




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[SohcCBs]

I don't know if you're just doing it the hard way, or that's a really good one.  I got the Dyna-S and forgot about it for over a decade.   I know, it sounds a little dumb, but I remembered after about 11-12 years and checked the timing.  It hadn't moved, but while I was at it...I pulled the plated and cleaned and lubed the advance mechanism.  Then I forgot about it again.

Note for above.  I used Accel Super Coils.  Kept the plugs clean a long time...as long as the carbs are adjusted and valve are in good clearance.
.

[rupaulpierce]

I don't know if you're just doing it the hard way

There's an easy way?

[rupaulpierce]

I swapped the 1-4 and 2-3 plugs. The 1-4 plugs came out with the tips cleaner than when I put them in the 2-3 cylinders, and the 2-3 came out looking like a bad hangover after a short ride in the 1-4 cylinders. Am I right that this indicates that it's not a fuel issue, and not an issue with the plugs, but still with timing on the 1-4 pickup? Timing looks spot on.

[rotortiller]

Timing looks spot on.

If it's spot on with a dynamic timing light then I would move along to other areas. You might want to compare the spark brightness of 1/4 and 2/3 at the plugs  first just in case. I would then look for inlet restrictions in the dirty cylinders (maybe choke valve function)  and check the valve clearance (for #$%*s and giggles) then move on to inspecting the float bowl area of the carbon producing cylinders.

[HondaMan]

I swapped the 1-4 and 2-3 plugs. The 1-4 plugs came out with the tips cleaner than when I put them in the 2-3 cylinders, and the 2-3 came out looking like a bad hangover after a short ride in the 1-4 cylinders. Am I right that this indicates that it's not a fuel issue, and not an issue with the plugs, but still with timing on the 1-4 pickup? Timing looks spot on.

There's another possibility, one that is rare (but happened to me!). I had a similar problem start happening in 2006 on my 750 while I was using it as commuter to-from work, half freeway and half surface streets. It ran fine until one day this same scenario started happening, fouling the 2-3 plugs in a single days' ride to work (44 miles round trip then). After a week of it (and running out of plugs!) it stalled on a 104 degree day in heavy traffic, acting overheated (but it wasn't), like it was boiling the carbs. This HAS happened before, but in Phoenix at 122 degrees with the Vetter lowers on, after a hiway ride into the town. This wasn't that.

After some investigation during cool-down, I discovered the spark wire was broken on the #3 wire, inside the jacket. The only clue was the extra-flexible bend it had when I was changing the plug. This un-balances the coil, making it misfire in certain RPM ranges.

Another similar coil-failure story: my brother came out here (Colorado) on his CB500 (Vetter with lowers included, circa 1976) and we toured the whole Southwest for a few weeks. On his way home across Kansas (alone), his bike suddenly started acting badly and would not run over 4500 RPM. It fouled all the plugs he had (#3 cylinder) with him. He bought new points at Wakeeney Kansas and installed them to no effect, then a whole points plate in Hays, same story. The bike would start and run OK, and when cold would rev up to about 7000 RPM OK, but after 1-2 miles of Interstate it would again balk, start backfiring and sputtering, and would not rev at all past 4500. He stumbled back home that way, taking 3 days to cross Kansas (and half of Missouri) to get home. When he got home he installed 2 new coils, and never had another problem with the bike for 15 more years.

[SohcCBs]

I swapped the 1-4 and 2-3 plugs. The 1-4 plugs came out with the tips cleaner than when I put them in the 2-3 cylinders, and the 2-3 came out looking like a bad hangover after a short ride in the 1-4 cylinders. Am I right that this indicates that it's not a fuel issue, and not an issue with the plugs, but still with timing on the 1-4 pickup? Timing looks spot on.

This could indicate a bad coil or bad wiring...bad sparkplug wires....bad pickup on the plate.

[rupaulpierce]

Coils, caps, wires, etc all test good. Got fed up and put the points back in.

Remember that black spark plug?



Not a total loss, it runs better than before!

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[rupaulpierce]

Bike runs fine with points--- so that rules out sudden carb blockage, weak battery, bad wires/coils/plugs, bent advancer shaft/pin, that I don't understand how to do static timing, and pretty much everything else other than the electronic ignition. It worked fine below half-throttle or so, but I was losing cylinders 1-4 beyond that. When these pickups fail, is it all or nothing? Either the pickup is toast, the alignment of the pickups on the plate is bungled, or Charlie is right and I need to re-jet the mains for some reason to use his ignition.

[rotortiller]

I'd say your electronic ignition sucks. It should setup as easy or easier then points for correct timing. Since you are capable of doing points fine send the sucker back for a replacement.

[rupaulpierce]

I'd say your electronic ignition sucks. It should setup as easy or easier then points for correct timing. Since you are capable of doing points fine send the sucker back for a replacement.

To his infinite credit, Charlie of Charlie's Place has been responding to my emails, answering questions, and helping me troubleshoot on the Lord's Day. Something might be wrong with this one, I can't quite figure out what it is, but it's absolutely not an indictment of Charlie's ignition. I might buy one if I can't get this sucker working. I was thinking today that one difference between the points set up and this electronic ignition is that  it grounds via the rear brake light ground wire... If I install it again i'll jump the ground from the ignition to the frame. Not sure why a bad ground would manifest at high RPM though. I was reading some Dyna S troubleshooting guides, and found that Dyna suggesting timing to the full advance marks by twisting the rotor while doing the static timing. I don't know what's different inside Dyna's black box pickup, but maybe that will work for this unit too.