Topic: Nicklopic's CB650 cafe thing (Top end build with modern suspension)

[Nicklopic]

so weird issue as popped up.
Started last night where down shifting into 3rd was a problem. just would go without a couple tries. Today same thing but also with first. Seemed to just not wanna go. It was better if i would pick my foot up and actually kick it down.
I had adjusted the clutch as per the manual the other day and all was good for a while. i need to adjust the cable a bit but just so I'm not using so much adjustment at the lever. The chain has a bit of slack to it that i definitely need to take up but im not sure if that would be a cause. I'm running 10w40 Valvoline MC oil, nothing fancy. Everything has been good for 2 or 300 miles so far so i dont think its an issue with the throw of the rear sets or anything.
Anyone have any ideas?

[seanbarney41]

I have had similar problems with a couple bikes lately.  Both turned out to be simply part of the shifter or linkage interfering with something so that the return spring did not have enough strength to overcome what was rubbing.  Or maybe something wrong with the return spring...jut have to take off the shifter cover to see.

[Nicklopic]

really like the sound of a non catastrophic issue lol (i tend to assume the worst so i figured id ask for insight instead of jumping to my usual conclusions and panicking myself lol)
When i do some maintenance tomorrow ill pop that off and take a peak. Now that you mention it i think i noticed the shifter not always feeling like it returned all the way. 

[seanbarney41]

Like I said, both times I had bikes with this problem, it wasn't even inside the cover.  One was an incorrect shift pedal clamp bolt rubbing on the foot peg and the other was a rearset linkage with some slop causing a binding condition.

[Nicklopic]

Took some slack out of the chain and pulled the linkage off to pull the chain cover and I’m thinking the linkage is my issue.
One of the rod ends on the cognito linkage is Seized. The other has a little play. The shifter arm and lever arm are staggered so it makes sense that it’s binding. I’m going to email cognito and possibly order replacements. These look like pretty cheesy ends because I don’t see any Teflon/PTFE or whatever liners in them like the heims I use on my Jeep.
Yes there small with minimal load but I’ve put less than 300 miles and this thing is frozen. The ones on my Jeep while wayyyyyy larger are years old and abused and I can rotate the linkages by hand even with load.
Cognito’s stuff is not cheap and i feel like it leaves a bit to be desired. I’m sure these are outsourced though.

[seanbarney41]

From what I have seen,  Cognito just makes rearset mounts, and then they supply a pair of universal Tarrozi's at a mark up.  I have seen Tarrozi heims with no liner and they have always worked fine for me.  If the design, length, and adjustment of the rods and levers is correct you don't even necessarily need a heim joint.  So you probably are gonna have to play with them a bit to find where they are gonna stay working good.

[Nicklopic]

Their current rear sets the sell are definitely their own design now. Those I will say are very nicely done.
I definitely need some kind of an end since the shifter arm and lever are are offset a bit so it needs that movement. I’m going to research what McMaster has to offer as well as cognito for replacements. I’d rather have the piece of mind having a liner in it so they’re smoother and hopefully better quality. Duds happen, I know but I would like to avoid another lol

[Nicklopic]

I ordered some QA1 rod ends and received them today. Chose them because they were reasonably priced, actually stainless instead of zinc plated, and were lined plus QA1 is pretty reputable in the racing world I think.. WELLLLLLLL they’re stiff AF. Like almost as stiff as the one side that’s binding up. I love it.
I’m going to try and wiggle them a while as see if I they wear in a little nicer so I can actually move them.

[DaveBarbier]

Are they stiff just holding them in your hand or is it the mechanism making them stiff? I made my own linkages for when I had rear sets and got right and left hand thread stainless ball joint rod ends (heim joints) from McMaster. The mechanism is sitting on the shelf now but it’s still as smooth as can be. Want to post some pictures of the linkage?

[Nicklopic]

They’re stiff even with a bolt run through for leverage. I got one to free up after a few hours I’m of intermittent movement but then I took it too far and ruined both of them. I clamped the balls with a nut and bolt, lubed them a little, and then spun them in the end with a drill too much. They started to feel smooth and free. Then I got overzealous and spun them too much, now they’re free but you can feel some grit when moving them. I probably destroyed the liner lol. One is smoother than the other, I’ll probably mix and match until I get some more.
Moral of the story, don’t be impatient.

Here’s what the Linkage looks like. There’s a slight offset that you can see from the top. When it was binding it wouldn’t give it full throw without force and would fully reset after a shift

[DaveBarbier]

Very odd. So with mixing and matching are you good now?

[Nicklopic]

Seems to feel okay now. It’s misting and damp so I don’t feel like going out today for a test. I ran it through the gear just letting the clutch out a little in the garage and let it go through the gears and back down again. Seems free and nice.

I got distracted and did some other little things, lubed, adjusted and re routed the clutch cable so it’s a little smoother, painted the letters on the chain guard (found the shifter seal is leaking a little, I’ll wait for the winter) and finally got the kick stand peg on.
I shaved and ground the inner portion of the peg so I could rotate it 180*, then trimmed the peg down, shaved and shaped it a little. It’s now stubby, ovalled so it’s just a hair more out of the way and has a tapper and slight point so it my toe won’t grab on when up shifting but has grip when I use my heal to kick it down. Not the most interesting thing but it was fun to shape with a file by hand and solves an issue.
For anyone that doesn’t remember from previous pages, the kickstand and cognito rear sets occupy the same space. I was running without the peg for a while because it’s standard size and shape made it interfere with my foot and shifter. It was a little annoying to put the kickstand down without it.
Also an extra pic of the bike because why not. (The glare makes it seem like the letters aren’t completely black/or are faded. They are though)

[DaveBarbier]

Yes dude, looking killer. Love the finish on the motor, so nice

[Godffery]

 This is Such a groovy build!

[Nicklopic]

Hey, hi, sup

Update since I haven’t posted anything. Did absolutely nothing over the winter because of my scheduling and a #$%*box snowmobile taking over the garage thanks to my brother.
Bike is awake and was feeling “great” a while. Now at 525 miles since the build and it’s final break in oil change was done. I’ve moved onto trying to figure out why it won’t wind out past 7ish k when I’m in gear trying to get on it. It’ll do it, but it’s clear it doesn’t have power up there. I ordered the programming cable from powerarc and usps has dropped the ball currently. I’m trying to go from 3 sparks to just 2 or even one since others reported it helping with similar issues. I did actually set the timing to TDC using an indicator rather than timing marks which only seemed to improve hot starts and clear up some low rpm jummyness.
Today I was went for a ride after class and was treated to a serious oil leak under the chain cover .75 miles in. It started as a concerning drip but By the time I got home my back tire was covered in oil and probably was ready to kill me. Turns out the shift shaft seal backed itself completely out (ive never touched it before) and I also found my sprocket retainer at some point had shattered into a million pieces and was MIA. The set up wasn’t ideal but I’m very very sure it wasn’t a result of sprocket misalignment. I’m very sure my measurements were spot on. I have ideas that I’m going to be considering but yeah. I don’t feel like trying to type them all right now lol

[Nicklopic]

Still waiting on the seal.

Tonight I made my own rotary switch to flip between timing maps. I really probably won’t use it all that much but it’ll be nice to be able to test 4 map revisions in one go without plugging my laptop back in. I more than like intent to have like 3 maps. 1 everyday cruise map with a little less timing, one spicy map, and one that has like an 8k rev limiter so I can flip to that and bounce off it and make loud noises like an immature idiot without taking it all the way up.

[Nicklopic]

Long with good an bad news

Seals in and all good.
Next I made a mount for the rotary switch. I wanted it hidden and not in the way so I used some neodymium magnets to attach it to the underside of the tank under the bend. It blends in and sits high up so it’s Accessible and I can pop it off when I take the tank off.
I played with the timing maps a bit and it’s so much better. I used C5s default map then tweaked cut out the 3rd and then 2nd spark until I had just one per rev. Switch down to 2 got the bike to pull at high RPM, slowish but it did. Cut down to 1 spark and it revs out like it should! Feels like 38* was a little peppier than 40 but I need to do some more testing, maybe rent some dyno time.
I caught why the sprocket retainer is failing. It seems despite my best measurements the sprockets aren’t perfectly aligned and the rear was too far onboard pulling the front sprocket in and putting a ton of lateral pressure on the retailer. I did some basic trig because I’m thinking mathematically now lol to see how the clearance between the chain and swing arm would be stepping down from my 44 tooth with a drag out to my 41 tooth without a drag out. The angle between the top of the front and top of the rear sprocket is a whopping barely .7*. Going larger to help clear the swing arm was foolish because I clearly didn’t do much. The UHMW slider will do just fine. I had to pull 2 links out too and pull the axle in a bit so it all should even out. This is the rear ratio I originally wanted and I’m happy I can hopefully use it.
Last but not least... while pulling the wheel, the rear brake line pulled out of the fitting. It was a stainless braided line that I had made up by a local hydraulic shop. It didn’t even get pulled very hard. Just shimmying the wheel out. I’m pissed but whatever. It gave me a reason to order new lines. I got a full set from core moto. Stock TLR lines for the front, and a custom one for the rear.
While I’m stuck waiting on the lines I’m going to pull the forks out and have the fork seals done finally. I used one of those pick cleaning things and that got it to stop leaking badly so I’ve dealt with it for a while.

[MRieck]

 Looks like you can get and olive and a banjo and repair that brake line Nick

[Nicklopic]

Looks like you can get and olive and a banjo and repair that brake line Nick

Honestly I’m not even going to bother. I already ordered the new lines and having it break and leave the bike down gives me a good excuse to get on top of other things I wanted to do
Plus the line wasn’t exactly how I wanted. The first time I had them make a line the guy was super helpful, put bends in the ends to match what I had. I changed masters and couldn’t rise that one so when I went back to have the new one made a different guy just didn’t want to do any of that and gave me straight ends only so it always looked a little off

[Nicklopic]

Stuff and things
Got some lines. Ordered from core moto because the order form was easy for the custom rear and they had cool colors lol went with black/carbon lines, with gold banjos and red logos for some subtle flair lol
Got my forks back. Had a local shop do them because I didn’t want to buy tools to do it or bother. They polished up the ends which is cool, they used to be pretty yellow.
While I had those done, I installed forks I had laying around as a place holder

[RAFster122s]

The multitine fork might catch on...
Funny.

Glad you found a place to make you a new line you needed.

You will be ready to have some fun riding her this summer when your wrap up the current project. Be sure to insure it to cover the value of your custom build in case the unthinkable happens.

[Nicklopic]

It’s alwaysssss something.
Forks are on with fancy new lines, I finally put in the cognito steering stop I’ve had on the shelf for months. It all felt great until out of the blew the power cuts at around 8k. The tach and ignition cuts for a split second. And then comes right back. It’s strange and intermittent. It still seems that it only happens at 8k. I checked grounds thinking I pulled a wire while I had the top triple off but that turned up nothing. The only idea I have is the ignition switch. It’s the only other piece that ties the two together. I clearly have to play more and be a bit more thorough.

[Nicklopic]

I believe I have narrowed down my cut out issue to the ignition switch. Since I've got an munit blue, i just used the keyless go function to bypass the ignition switch entirely. After a couple short trips to work and then a final confirmation yesterday with a 30-40 miles ride,  I'm certain its the switch. Multiple pulls up to 9.5k without a hiccup or sputter. Once I verify no wires are pinched or something ill get a new switch and all should be good again. I still need to make sure its a 650 switch and not something else that was adapter to fit the Suzuki triple. Its definitely a Honda switch though.
Ive also concluded that i still have too much misalignment in my sprockets. I measured sooooo many times but ill end up having another front sprocket made I think. Ill be sure to have him machine it to accept a normal retainer this time lol
Lastly, I played with the timing a bit more. I uploaded 4 maps and flipped between them a couple times. Total timing was 37-38-39-40* it was happiest with 38* but i set the rev limiter on the 37 map low as a safety thing so i couldnt really test it. Getting rid of the multispark turns it into a whole new animal. All i really did was modify the stock c5 maps. I have no idea what im doing but it works lol I smoothed a transition down low as well. Here's the map incase anyone still uses these stupid ignitions.

[Nicklopic]

So incase anyone wants an update, I hate this stupid thing.

Powerarc and c5 is garbage. My ignition died on my on my way to school. Spent 2 hours on the side of the road hoping the ignition just died from heat and would come back when it cooled off. NOPE. It’s dead. Ended up having to trailer it home. Today I charged the battery back up since I killed it trying to crank it every 20 minutes to no avail, AND THE STUPID STARTER CLUTCH SEEMS TO HAVE FAILED. Just spins and spins, maybeeeee will grab enough for 1 or 2 revolutions if I catch it right but slips right away. I rebuilt it when I first got the bike and it has maybeeeee 2000 miles total. All oem Honda springs and rollers and even the unit itself was an NOS piece.

Pretty much furious at it and don’t feel like even looking at it. I need to finish some projects before I get started on this pile for now.  I’m probably going to change some stuff this winter. I’ll convert to a dynatek ignition with davebarbiers set up. Try to clean up the harness a little, rebuild the starter clutch and put new clutch plates in while I’m there, some new cables, a fender, idk some other stuff I guess.

[MRieck]

 Unfortunately I believe you are correct about that ignition......it has ruined other peoples equipment in the past. Junk.
All the 3 roller starter clutches are minimal. Looking at modern, crank end starter clutches there are 10 or 12 rollers which have a lot of purchase area.
 I understand your disappointment Nick....sooner or later it happens to all of us. Give it a break and come back to it later.