Author Topic: '71 CB500 - Cylinder Issues  (Read 700 times)

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Offline Snoefy

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'71 CB500 - Cylinder Issues
« on: April 29, 2019, 06:51:21 AM »
Not sure where to begin.. This has been a long road and I'm getting close to giving up.  :'(

Current issue: Cylinder 1 and 4 are not firing (at all) but worked for 3 minutes before cutting out.

Things to note:
All 4 cylinders worked beautifully for about 3 minutes before the bike cut out. When i restarted her only 2 and 3 worked. 1 and 4 have not worked since.
Prior to them not working 3 and 4 were not firing. That issue was resolved due to bad spark plugs, even though I did buy them new.

New fuel lines - Original sizing.
Single air intake for all 4 cylinders.
New spark plugs on 1 and 2.
Battery fully charged on trickle charger, bought last year.
Dyna ignition, wires, and caps only 2 years old.
Coils seem fine as all 4 cylcinders have fired up before.
Carbs have been cleaned twice in the last month.
Valves, cam chain, float heights all remeasured.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2019, 07:53:32 AM by Snoefy »
1971 Red CB500K "Rhonda"

Offline calj737

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Re: '71 CB500 - Cylinder Issues
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2019, 07:34:27 AM »
Insure plug wires are routed on correct coil: 1/4 on single coil, 2/3 on other. Fire it again. If no spark on all four, swap ignition leads and try again. Does the problem swap? If so, ignition issue. If not, fuel issue.
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Offline Snoefy

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Re: '71 CB500 - Cylinder Issues
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2019, 07:44:45 AM »
Prior to the 1/4 cutting out I had tested the coils by swapping and the problem stayed at 3/4 (at the time), this leads me to believe it is not the coils because of that. They're correctly routed right now.

Spark plugs look wet - I know all 4 cylinders have fired up in the last 48hrs at some point. Makes me doubt its a fuel issue.

Could the problem be from overheating, running too rich and not moving for 3min?
1971 Red CB500K "Rhonda"

Online bryanj

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Re: '71 CB500 - Cylinder Issues
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2019, 08:40:44 AM »
Refit the points system and see what happens
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

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Offline HondaMan

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Re: '71 CB500 - Cylinder Issues
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2019, 06:08:56 PM »
Prior to the 1/4 cutting out I had tested the coils by swapping and the problem stayed at 3/4 (at the time), this leads me to believe it is not the coils because of that. They're correctly routed right now.

Spark plugs look wet - I know all 4 cylinders have fired up in the last 48hrs at some point. Makes me doubt its a fuel issue.

Could the problem be from overheating, running too rich and not moving for 3min?
No, overheating takes much longer than that.
If the coils are the old OEM type  by TEC: they are known to give up at some point. About half the time they 'die' by having erratic output at temperature, usually about 1/2 of normal spark output. I have seen it in the OEM coils several times, and in the Dyna green 3-ohm coils many times.

The failure mode is: the varnish-coated wire that is used in these units has a limited life, which is accelerated somewhat by heat. In the case of the 500/550, the configuration of the fuel tank is just right that they get little cooling as the airflow is mostly blocked, and they sit right above the engine, close to the exhaust headers. That's a LOT of heat. Once the varnish breaks down on the wire(s) inside, the tiny air space between that wire and the next one in the winding gets squeezed to 0 distance when the coil is hot, but has some distance when cool. So, the coil measures OK at room temperature, but when heated to about 150-180 degrees (F) the windings short out in several places.

I first discovered this characteristic in 1978 after my brother's CB500 did this to one of his coils at 45,000 miles (and 110 degrees while crossing Kansas i August that year). Poor guy...we has just finished touring the entire US Southwest for 3 weeks (I was on my 750) and after we returned here to Colorado, he went back to Missouri on his own. But, at about Wakeeney (on I-70) the 500 suddenly dropped to about 40 MPH top speed (his 500 could run about 107 MPH top end), backfiring and smoking. Each time he pulled off at a freeway ramp for a few minutes, it would straighten up again after stopping the engine for 10 minutes (in the famous West Kansas winds, typically 40 MPH). He would then hit the interstate again, and in 3-5 minutes the trouble would erupt again. He bought new points at one exit, a whole new points plate at another, camping and installing them at that Kansas exit each time overnight. He finally limped home that way (central Missouri) and when he got home he bought a new 1-4 coil: problem solved immediately. I got his old one to do the testing, to figure out the failure mechanism.
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Offline calj737

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Re: '71 CB500 - Cylinder Issues
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2019, 06:24:51 PM »
Prior to the 1/4 cutting out I had tested the coils by swapping and the problem stayed at 3/4 (at the time), this leads me to believe it is not the coils because of that. They're correctly routed right now.
If 3&4 were an issue originally, that IS FUEL related. If the plugs are wet, and the coils are correctly paired and routed, then it’s more likely ignition related. But you’ve described two different conditions and are asserting the same issue.

So I’m confused...

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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline Snoefy

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Re: '71 CB500 - Cylinder Issues
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2019, 11:22:11 AM »
That is why I'm confused as well!

Feels like my motorcycle is giving mixed signals as to what is wrong. Hence why I've done so many different things in attempt to resolve.
1971 Red CB500K "Rhonda"

Offline Dolomite

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Re: '71 CB500 - Cylinder Issues
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2019, 01:54:36 PM »
Pull each plug individually and turn the motor over by hand to verify each one is sparking? If there's spark and fuel, then that suggests air to me. Those are the 3 things needed to go boom.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: '71 CB500 - Cylinder Issues
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2019, 07:18:20 PM »
You've had the carbs off multiple times: did you also change the O-rings in the castings that hold the carbs to the head? If you took them off, they are no longer sealed unless you put new o-rings in, as they are now hard as plastic and don't seal. These are the same size as are found in the valve adjuster caps.

Also, the rubber hoses that hold the carb onto those castings may be leaky, too.

Vacuum leaks cause all sorts of missing, under/overfueling, and general mischief.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com