Topic: upgrade to c5 power arc ignition cb 500 four

[boyt666]

hello guys,

has anyone experience with this power arc ignition  and rejetting ?
My bike ran great with a previous boyer brandsen ignition with 2 degrees more of advance...
I recently switched to power arc ignition with the triple spark and optical trigger  technology , I'm wondering if
rejetting is needed ( ritcher or leaner ) with this conversion?
My spark plug caps are not optimal for the moment the bike starts up great and runs great under 5000  rpm.
from the moment I go above 1/4 throttle or above 5 k the bike doesn't respond well. For an optimal testride I have to wait untill my spark plug caps and cable connectors are descent crimped.

kind regards
Sam ( belgium )

ps thanks to all for the lots of  info on this forum

[robvangulik]

Does your new ignition use the Honda spark advance or advances it electronically?

[boyt666]

it has four different map settings fully electronic ,  to install you only have to set engine at tdc and turn the ecu unit until a led goes on.
All the 4 maps have 20 degrees static advance and the full advance varies from 40 to 32 .
the saturation of the ignition coils is also preset , no high revs less power and less heat build up i think ....

btw it's the same ignition as cycle x  and there are some topics about it already on this forum

http://www.c5ignitions.com/motorcycle-ignitions.html   

thanks for your reply

[Bankerdanny]

I don't see why rejetting would be needed. Even if it has a stronger spark that doesn't change the basic chemistry involved in the proper ratio of air/fuel required for optimal combustion.

[Deltarider]

All the 4 maps have 20 degrees static advance

That's a lot. Engine will probably be hard to start.

[Spanner 1]

Noooo, 5 or 6 deg. advance, static !

[dave500]

put the boyer back on!

[DaveBarbier]

put the boyer back on!

Nooo! C5 is good!

[boyt666]

hello ,
yesterday I did my 2nd testrun with 105 main jets iso 125  , with good sparkplug terminals and caps , 5k resistor plugs.
Same story , at 5 - 6k rpm the bike starts to stumble and hesitate.... In neutral revving it shoots even flames out of the exhaust.
 
Changed carbs now to run very rich with 130 main and neelde at 5th iso 4th clip position.
Alsi eliminate the rotary switch by connecting the 2 wires directly to ground ( map selection)

About the advance , I think you can't compare to a regular ignition because there is more delay , I tried to rotate the baseplate while running at idle to retard but the sweet spot is at standard position. before with a boyer you could hear it running better or not when rotating it ( rev climbing or descending)

[robvangulik]

Your engine doesn't care HOW the spark is generated, it just needs it to be at the right moment for the right rpm.
And when that doesn't happen you can change jets all you want but it will never run right!

[boyt666]

problem is that I don't know if the spark has more power with the boyer or with the power arc to ignite more or less fuel . It was't my idea to change the carb settings but I'm realy desperate .
Carbs are bore out from 1/4 to full throttle . but run perfect with the boyer and my latest jetting. 
I also don't like the connection from the HT leads to the coils with the springs inside , like more fixed connectors...

[boyt666]

video on youtube with latest good running setup with boyer....

[dave500]

put the boyer back on.

[Scott S]

 Why such a large main jet? Have you made modifications to the engine/intake/exhaust?

[dave500]

going by all the claims by all the aftermarket ignition makers you can run an engine on the spark alone?

[boyt666]

modifications .... ported head, cb650 cam ( retarded) bored keihin ( 1st model 049a?) carbs , cb550 cilinder and pistons
gearbox undercut , extra small trochoild oil pump added on axle from the cb550, oil pump from cb650 , airfilter on base of a steeldragon breadbox style but modified with foam and chickenwire to mushroomshape ( sample itg formula 1 style , frame reinforced , new slightly wider rims and spokes, lowered front spring , koni shocks rear....
I know it normaly will be too rich but I wanna know how it will respond .
Somebody have any idea why ngk uses 5k ohm resistor and champion uses
1.4k ohm resistor spark plugs?
at some info from powerarc is 5k ohm enough and on other onfo you must use 10k ohm
resistor?

[dave500]

your bike has a lot of modifications!theres a lot to be said for just leaving them stock,come play race with me one day?an ounce of handling is worth a pound of horsepower!

[DaveBarbier]

You know what your bike needs, Dave? A frame hoop.

Boyt, I’d recommend going to a dyno who knows carbs.

[boyt666]

dave600 I live in europe ; belgium ...I will first rhave to ace over a lot of water....
I have a dyno result from 2 years ago with no carb modification and no cam timing retarded. It ran slightly rich .
see image ( if it works...)
now I feel more 3/4 to wot power but the dyno man is too busy with serious people who are trackracing modern bikes....
his father is unfortenitly pas away but he knew a lot of the old stuff, for the son who runs the company now  the old bikes are new to him.... put a vtr or latest cbr1000rr in his hands and he plays with it.
so first of all I must have a good feeling on the street before I do a dyno run, the only thing we can test is exhaust AF but without the extra ignition connector  from power arc ( extra 150 dollar) we can't program or modify the ignition settings.

[Alaxy Galaxy]

video on youtube with latest good running setup with boyer....

AT 0:28

I didn't know Honda made a v-tec CB500F! 

Why did you replace the Boyer with the Power Arc?

[boyt666]

haha... indeed... that would be the missing bike .... a 500 v twin !

Guys... I think I've sort it out.... I'm a little ashamed to tell but before I changed the ignition I did a last vacuum sync and was forgotten to turn the vacuum sync bolts tight, 1 was already out and a second was loose....     

This afternoon I did a testrun with the rich setup and could rev it to 6 a 7k rpm ,
suddently I noticed there was a bolt missing.... so it sucked a lot of false air thrue the holeof 2 cilinders...
Now it's fixed and rev it to wot with no hesitation at all ... maybe I will do another testrun this evening so the carbs
can be set to a normal AF ratio again ...

If I shouldn't notice the issue I would have ended with a 170 mainjet ....

I chainged to powerarc for better cold start and maybe better fuel burning ,
the cold start is a fact , now the running.... thumbs up !

[TwoTired]

I chainged to powerarc for better cold start and maybe better fuel burning ,
the cold start is a fact , now the running.... thumbs up !

How much power does it draw from the electrical system?

Cheers,

[boyt666]

do you mean amps or voltage ? No idea , it''s not mentioned at the website I think... 
So got back from a quick drive ... the bike is fine under load , so when you ask for torque.
But when I want to rev it up above 6 a 7k rpm it still stumbles.
Now I will check the sparkplugs if the are shooted black or not... pffff

Another reasin why I changed was the boyer rotor with magnets . When I checked ignition timing with strobo it indeed bounces a bit and the power arc should be more stable...

Now back to my workplace....

[TwoTired]

do you mean amps or voltage ? No idea , it''s not mentioned at the website I think... 

Power is amps multiplied by voltage.  Watt's law :  P = E x I.

I know it's not mentioned on the website.  And when I asked them, they wouldn't or couldn't tell me either.  Brushed it off as unimportant.

But, the 500/550 charging system isn't known for surplus power.  And some ignition systems tax it enough to make battery charge recovery problematic, particularly in stop and go traffic.

Good luck!

[boyt666]

@ two tired : do you use a power arc too ?
Paul from c5 power arc noticed me to use good electrical wires ( I' ve used 1.5mm2 /0.06 sq inch  to each coil separately ) , the coils were already prewired  , so I guess this must be a good thickness...

they also claim to route the wires ( trigger leads ) away from the alternator wires .
The heart of all electric is under the seat , mounted on an aluminum plate ; the voltage reg / rec is underneath this plate while the wiring from the ignition runs on the upper side .
I don't know how much influence they could have , but to separate everything 4 a 5 inch distance on a motorcycle is almost impossible

[TwoTired]

@ two tired : do you use a power arc too ?

No. 

Partly because they couldn't tell me the power draw for my 550 bikes.  And fed me the snake oil sales pitch about high voltage as being the most important factor, which is BS.  They were mostly unaware of the physics regarding ignitions and the power they use.  They do NOT add power to a stock engine.  They simply can't.

1 Hp is 750 watts.  50 hp motor produces 37,500 watts.  The charging system makes 150 watts, drawn from the crankshaft.  The stock ignition draws 25-30 watts which is part of the normal 120 to 130 watt draw on the electrical system.  The rest is available to recharge the battery when the alternator spins fast enough.  (It makes 40-50 watts at idle RPM.)  An ignition system that draws more than stock, delays the battery recharge rate after a period of running at idle, and requires the motor to rev at a higher average to keep the battery happy.  If the ignition system draws too much power, the bike can never recharge the battery and it will just deplete until there is no power left for the ignition.  Anyway, even if that HV ignition doubled the power of the spark, and didn't draw that extra power from the crankshaft, a 30 watt injection into the cylinder could only add 0.04 HP to the motor output.  Think you'll notice that in the seat of your pants?  HV spark can enable engines that can make higher HP.  But, HV ignitions to NOT add noticeable hp to stock motors.

750s have a a higher output alternator and is better able to tolerate higher ignition draw components.  The salesmen I was able to reach simply didn't care about the 550, particularly after I told them I wouldn't buy until I knew it would work for my bike.  Their return policy was not in my favor.

Hope it work out for you.

Cheers,

[boyt666]

 testrun from this morning , see video youtube :

main jet 120 iso 125 , needle 4th clip ; the boyer can handle 125 ....

tried different maps ( standard and most advanced ) It only change a better pull , but both die at 5-6k rpm ....
Headlight on and off , fully charged battery ... no influence at all ....

Do I really have to buy the program module to run fine ?
Nobody (from Cycle X) who has experience with the cb500 / cb550 with this ignition system  ?

[flatlander]

why do you think you need such big main jets? they are huge for a 550. did you do any plug chops or dyno testing to determine their size?

[boyt666]

I went thru 105 to 130 mains and 125 gave me the best responce without surging or hesitation . I always use iridiums , the reading is not as easy or clear as a normal spark plug but the were fine. same on needle clip , 4th is a bit rich at 2 to 3.5 k but the response is better. 3th clip is standard ok and better mpg...
If my bike ran too rich it just bogs an cut of , if it ran too lean it surges . this is a first model keihin carb 649a  and normaly a smaller engine is jetted richer compared to a cb750 ( read that somewhere...)
The redarded timing of the cam also changed my jetting 
There is a lot of info about spark plug readings but always another story or theory .... and I donT want to tear down every week a spark plug to check the colour of the deepest point .
 

[flatlander]

 "normally a small engine is jetted richer"... must be true if it was said on the internet. i'm oldskool stubborn and still believe jetting is done for correct a/f ratio, not engine size.
did you try regular plugs as well? many people who tried iridiums in these engines only had trouble with them.

[boyt666]

BIKE WAS FINE WITH BOYER , no matter what I change now it dies at 5 a 6k !  this is no stock bike setup , it came with 78 or 98 aftermarket mains  when I bought it original .... after the modifications with the boyer it ran ok with this setup . carbs are bore out from 1/4 throttle so they suck a lot more air
Uesterday or the day before I ran with normal plugs , had best experience with the champion racing 8809 but only has 1.4k resistor. now I m running denso ix27b with 5k ohm resistor. need to use silicon spark plug caps with no resistor iso the ngk's ( 5k ohm) because of the carbon spiral core HT leads who doesn't like the screw tipe head, now they are with a terminal end cap crimped ....
the 5 a 6 k rpm point takes a change in the saturation of the coils  .

[flatlander]

ok. it sounds like a lot of things have been done to your bike, the combined effect of which only its builder can judge (and i do hope they used good judgement). i don't think armchair diagnosis like via a forum can help here, especially as nobody here knows its history. you'll just have to go through a really thorough tuning process, based on data. do you have the means for that or a good engine mechanic and tuner to support you?

the original carbs can make a lot more power than the stock 500/550 made. they should be able to support your setup especially as you're still at 550cc. the engine doesn't have the volume to need a bigger carb. depending on how the boring was done they may even work less efficiently now as their larger diameter decreases the pressure of the vacuum, if the pump volume of the cylinder stays the same.   
for reference, i get 10hp more than you out of my 550, with original carbs (also 550cc, oversize valves and mike rieck ported head - and a boyer ignition ).

did you modify the bike yourself? it sounds like it was in a very precarious balance which is unforgiving to changes. if you now change one element of the system as you did with the ignition, you upset that balance and it will need further mods which may be beyond the range of simple adjustments.

for the quickest result, if it ran well with the boyer - slap it back on and be happy. potential benefits of the powerarc will be so minimal that i doubt you can feel them.

[boyt666]

putting on back the boyer and see if it runs ok again .... then post a video of it ... 
try to retard the whole thing down ( cb750 needs oem 40 degree advance , cb 500 only 28 or 32 total advance... )
but it ran like #$%* at 6k rpm .... the curves of power arc are based on cb750 ... till next week for an update...  thanks to all for the support and intrest....

[boyt666]

quick test again after installing the boyer bradsen again , carb is still the same ( normal I drive main 125 , but the 120 is still in )
sorry for the wind noise , but I don't think there is a problem with my engine ?

So what to do now ; couldn't they just notice that the ignition only works on a cb 750 or you have to buy a stronger alternator ( 500 dollar again... )
Is there actually a good runing cb 500 / 550 with oem alternator ?   
They only show a working cb 500 550 running at idle and revving some bit , I also could rev it up till 10k but on the road it falls on his face at 6k ...

What should you do guys ?  Send it back ? Or strap a car battery at my back .....

[bryanj]

Send it back as not suitable

[boyt666]

also if already been used ? ( not abused )
I will contact Paul again, if he would reply my mail ...

pfff 2 weeks of hard work research and testing...

[TwoTired]

Well, I'd send it back.  But, I didn't think they gave refunds on installed electrical components.  That was the gotcha I couldn't buy in to.

Functionally,  it should work mostly the same as on a 750 if the battery can maintain voltage, albeit with the wrong advance curve.

Did you measure the battery voltage during the ill running spats?  Above 2500 RPM, there shouldn't be an issue with that, but I don't know your battery size.

Cheers,

[boyt666]

I measured 13.5 V at battery and coil when running 14.5 v , but amps are more important I think .
It's a shido lithium battery recomended for cb 500/4 , it has 4Ah , cold start capacity of 240A ...
so even without the extra 150w  charge of the alternator it gives 4A / 1h , 8A /0.5 h and 16A / 15 min.....
After each testrun I put it on the charger , didn't even take 5 min to be fully reloaded. Lights are all led's and have no hifi system , AC nor heater.... 
see attachement for generator spec . If I understand when rpm  rises the voltage goes up and
the amps goes down . I'm more into mechanics ... only basic electrics no electronics...

and to answer the question if I go to a service station ( garage or specialist) ...
nope... even an official harley davidson ( I know from a friend...) turns their back to old bikes
and charge over $80/h . They don't care about non oem parts, not even s&s carbs...or parts you did't buy at their shop...
I bought the bike in 2015 from a motorcycle store ... high price for a bike that didn't even run on 4 cilinders, problem was a clogged 3th carb ,
front fork was fully retracted... no new sealings but mostly used sealant even at carb floats. The only good part was a new paintjob and  cupseat . And btw saw at first revision a piston pin circlip was out ...
my first full engine revision was done by a retired motorcycle mechanic ,
result ... oil consumption 4th cilinder and jumping out of 3th gear , shift forks total worn ... and worst of all the intake valve didn't even fully closed of the 1st cilinder...
the next winter I did a revision myself except the cilinder bore 550cc and surface milling...
new valves and valve guides ,valve seats  porting , mls gasket ( good!) new chain distribitor and tension guides , measurement and replacing crankshaft bearings, let the gear dogs undercut 2 degrees,  and shimmed gears myself , added oil and temp gauge. lowered and restricted with progressive springs front fork , rear Ikon shocks with rebound and preload ( very good) .....No shifting problems and worn forks anymore... 
In revision time  I bought a second bike bmw f800s , but I love to drive my honda ; it has so much more soul in it and we are about the same age... could have been my older brother