Author Topic: cb750A / now E! drag bike dreaming,  (Read 8474 times)

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Offline Don R

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cb750A / now E! drag bike dreaming,
« on: June 14, 2019, 01:47:03 PM »
 I acquired a 750A yesterday, it's been outside and neglected but no water in the oil.  Anyway the racer in me keeps imagining it carrying my big ass down the drag strip. I know a few guys have run them and Isley is the king of the Hondamatic. 

   I can't help wonder what mods are done to the bottom end and trans? I'm thinking park gear removal or lockout? I think I read years ago Coan was doing some converter mods and some early Honda car parts may have ben used in the bike trans.
  It's down to wheels, forks, frame and engine The wiring was toasty as was most everything else. I have everything else required.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2019, 04:33:05 PM by Don R »
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Offline Cb750 Racer

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Re: 750A drag bike dreaming,
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2019, 02:08:29 PM »
Bill Benton/ MRieck would be the guys to ask. Bill has a billet block hondamatic in the works and I know all kinds of work was done to the final drive to increase the stall make it impressive at the strip.
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Offline Tintop

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Re: 750A drag bike dreaming,
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2019, 02:15:41 PM »
Bill Benton/ MRieck would be the guys to ask. Bill has a billet block hondamatic in the works and I know all kinds of work was done to the final drive to increase the stall make it impressive at the strip.

Here's the link to the original Samauto build. http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,61876.0.html
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Offline dragracer

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Re: 750A drag bike dreaming,
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2019, 09:24:12 PM »
Yeap, that build was well documented from beginning to end for Samauto.  There were still some details that Bill and Sam were sorting out before the unfortunate accident in Virginia. Many, many pages to read through but worth the time if you're serious about an automatic. From carb selection and tuning to frame mods, wheel selection to torque converter mods and brake selection its all there as a basic road map.

Good luck with the build if you decide to proceed.

Offline Don R

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Re: 750A drag bike dreaming,
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2019, 09:28:07 PM »
 I'll take time to read it all before proceeding. We've run a Powerglide behind up to a thousand HP for quite a while but that's been perfected by hundreds of guys before I got one.  It gives me pause for sure. It would be good to have a handful of clutch at times.
 
« Last Edit: June 14, 2019, 09:33:39 PM by Don R »
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Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: 750A drag bike dreaming,
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2019, 11:46:00 AM »
Yeap, that build was well documented from beginning to end for Samauto.  There were still some details that Bill and Sam were sorting out before the unfortunate accident in Virginia. Many, many pages to read through but worth the time if you're serious about an automatic. From carb selection and tuning to frame mods, wheel selection to torque converter mods and brake selection its all there as a basic road map.

Good luck with the build if you decide to proceed.

Frank, it was pretty much well sorted as far as I was concerned but the people in charge wanted it to go quicker and quicker. hahaha.
As you know, the object of an ET bike is for it to be deadly consistent laying down runs of the same time, time and time again.
As an 836, it was probably close to being broken in when I turned up in 2013 but the bike had unbeknown to me suddenly grown to 915 and the running in process had to start all over again.
If you want to win races with an Automatic Honda Don, do what you are going to do with it and then leave it well alone.
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Offline Don R

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Re: 750A drag bike dreaming,
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2019, 08:30:21 AM »
 As a good bracket racer knows. We're seeing Super Comp cars dropping speed at the finish line these days. My theory is the closer to 100% volumetric efficiency you can get the more consistent it will run. Of course shift points and traction come into play, should not be a problem. 
 We won a lot of rounds being chased with the slower car and a head start, when we became the chaser it got different quick. 
« Last Edit: June 16, 2019, 08:32:03 AM by Don R »
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Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: 750A drag bike dreaming,
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2019, 04:02:41 PM »
As a good bracket racer knows. We're seeing Super Comp cars dropping speed at the finish line these days. My theory is the closer to 100% volumetric efficiency you can get the more consistent it will run. Of course shift points and traction come into play, should not be a problem. 
 We won a lot of rounds being chased with the slower car and a head start, when we became the chaser it got different quick.

Don, the last thing to worry about is the shifting and traction problems. The auto never breaks traction if you launch as I did.
If you get the gearing right and hit the shift peddle at peak power revs and cross the line at the same revs, you will be spot on.
Also, when you gear shift with the Auto, there is no need to throttle back, just hit the shift at wide open throttle and there is only one shift to worry about as they are only 2 speeds.
There are only 2 things to worry about and that's the oil temperature as you leave the line and the carburettors.
I was advised by Jon Weeks to use Yamalube oil as it was the best in the Auto and CV carbs as they didn't cause the bike to bog down when going to WOT.
I always shallow staged and went on the last yellow. My clutch lever was connected to the back brake to stop it creeping and I would let it off and go to WOT on the last yellow and my best RT was a .004.
As long as the oil was at the correct temperature as I left, my dial ins would be spot on.
The only variation to my times would come when the relative air density changed and that's where a weather station comes in.
In the heat of the day when the temps could reach 100 degrees, my times could drop by two tenths compared to in the cool morning or late evening.
Going back to the traction problems, there weren't any. The bike never broke traction off the line and only lifted the front wheel about 2 inches when it came on the cam and that was with the Megacycle high power cam. When we switched to the DP cam, it was just smooth power throughout the range. Good luck mate.

Sam.


« Last Edit: June 16, 2019, 11:03:30 PM by Sam Green Racing »
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Offline Don R

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Re: 750A drag bike dreaming,
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2019, 09:25:55 PM »
 We have a weather station in the trailer and run it off a laptop. .2 is a large variance due to weather, if it gains a ton when the air cools off you're probably rich. That's about what I know. Webers might not be the carb of the day? L0L!
  I'm sure it's a no electronics class but a two step rev limiter would be awesome. A clutch switch on the rear brake lever could add/remove timing from a dyna maybe.
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Offline Don R

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Re: 750A drag bike dreaming,
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2019, 10:24:05 PM »
 Seca 750 carbs, are there Hitachi and Mikunis?  I'm seeing Hitachi for sale and if I remember correctly mikuni's are the weapon of choice.
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Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: 750A drag bike dreaming,
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2019, 11:29:36 PM »
Don, the carbs we used were off a Suzuki but Jonathan Weeks is the person to ask about them.
In respect of using the weather station, we used it to correct the dial in, it was much easier than changing the jetting.
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Offline dragracer

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Re: 750A drag bike dreaming,
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2019, 11:57:14 AM »
I believe the general idea with carb selection is to get a set of CV carbs. You want to be sure the carbs react to the engine rpm/vacuum versus a set of regular carbs that dump fuel and immediately go wide open when you lock throttle off the line. You want the slides to rise slowly because the auto will not react with a steep rpm increase. The springs on top of the diaphragm will need to be addressed by finding softer springs or cutting a few coils off the original ones to allow less resistance for the diaphragm to rise quicker. If not, the bike will bog off the line. Of course jetting/ needle position becomes very important and you'll have to be patient and test a lot to get it right or the bike will bog. The higher the stall converter, the less critical the aforementioned items become. This is where a proper rear brake set up comes in. Sam quickly decided he wanted to be consistent, pass after pass and stopped pushing the engine launch rpms beyond the clamping force of the rear brake. Others' were more interested in setting records but the brake set up simply couldn't support that desire. As Sam said, camshaft selection is extremely important to put the power in the right place to allow the bike to move off the launch. Concentrate more on building the bike to address the launch technique than any other part of the build. The rest will come. I'd much prefer to turn on win lights round after round versus trying to achieve personal bests. But I know as an experienced 4 wheel racer, I'm needlessly preaching to the choir. Bill and Jon Weeks are the experts on autos. I only offered my thoughts as the build progressed. I would also suggest that you get the bike as long as possible to the ground and extend it some. It'll make it easier to ride. And please use shocks and not struts if possible.

Offline Don R

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Re: 750A drag bike dreaming,
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2019, 06:47:47 PM »
 I got the rusted chain and front sprocket off, that was a treat, there is a metal chain guide that goes on edge near the rollers of the chain. Interesting. I removed the handlebars and pulled the remaining wiring. The only thing that concerns me is replacing a neutral safety switch, not sure how it worked, must be in the harness. I'll get a diagram.
   I spent most of the day prepping for palletizing on a T350 Suzuki for a chap in California. Those fork tubes were a nightmare to get out of the lower tree. This Suzy came with the A and hopefully will pay for them both.
  Mt thoughts are gs1100E swingarm, because I know it fits between the frame and is light and somewhat longer.
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Offline MRieck

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Re: 750A drag bike dreaming,
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2019, 12:31:05 PM »
 It's all about a good rear brake set up and getting stall speed up.
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Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: 750A drag bike dreaming,
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2019, 02:21:20 PM »
Don't forget to contact Jon Weeks  :)
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline MRieck

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Re: 750A drag bike dreaming,
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2019, 06:11:49 PM »
Do you want consistent or quick/fast and consistent? Slow and consistent is pretty easy.
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Offline Don R

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Re: 750A drag bike dreaming,
« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2019, 08:26:45 PM »
  I'd rather start out slow on the bike, and cheap since it's a $40 bike. I have a nice shinko rear tire already on an A wheel and a choice of cylinders and heads. On the shelf is a 9K mile F2 cylinder, pistons, cam and head or I have a decent 76K head, pistons, cam and cylinders.  The both appear to match the A block's oil drains. 
 I have history with Coan racing transmissions, I'm fairly certain they've done an A converter before.
  I learned the hard way about stall speed and engine requirements with our jr. dragster. We built one from scratch in 93 and learned our own tune-up. I changed metering rods in the lectron and clutch garter springs and picked up 1.2 seconds in the 1/8 mile. That was a vast improvement proving how far off I was before.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2019, 08:32:55 PM by Don R »
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Re: 750A drag bike dreaming,
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2019, 09:59:27 PM »
 I've been reading old posts, the F2 top end may not be best on a street A. I'll pursue it for now for race only. I found my advancer parts box tonight, the one on the bike is rusty, I may clean it up unless I find out there is a better one to use. I'm thinking my F2 header may work better on a stock bore if it fits. Otherwise I have access to a late Yoshi repop or a Vance and Hines drag race pipe. I'll just skulk around on Jon's posts until this thing becomes a reality. The speedo had 24K miles so the trans is that worn.

 I also assume a racing A can make use of the heavier rotor since it came stock on the 76A . Quick revving isn't a thing.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2019, 02:02:12 PM by Don R »
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Offline kmb69

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Re: 750A drag bike dreaming,
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2019, 06:23:18 PM »
.....
The speedo had 24K miles so the trans is that worn.
.....

Trans per se will be OK.
The primary damper springs will be all busted up. JT Marks has replacements on eBay.
Clutch disks will need to be replaced. Bill Benton has a lead for aftermarket fibers.

Offline Old Scrambler

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Re: 750A drag bike dreaming,
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2019, 09:21:11 PM »
Rather than rake and cut-up the A frame.......build it with a K frame and use the A frame on a custom to allow for removing the valve-cover in-frame. Early Kawasaki mono-shock dirt bikes have 2+inch longer swingarms that fit...........use the K barrels with the F2 head and larger intakes..........31mm or larger carbs.
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Offline Don R

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Re: 750A drag bike dreaming,
« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2019, 03:58:08 PM »
 ;D  My brother has 79 and 82 dohc 750's, there may be a set of carbs in his storage.
   I just went out to look at it and boy this thing is ugly. A race bike is it's destiny.
    There's enough parts on ebay to build a few of these so parting it shows no promise. I'll keep convincing myself a drag bike is a good investment.
  I have a 75F swingarm and disc brake I'm wondering about putting a 30mm VT1000 twin piston caliper on it. (I have two)  Those twin cam bikes may also have a long swinger but drum brakes.  Still cruising ebay for gs1100E stuff but it's really popular so $$$ and parted down to individual bolts.
  Also thinking I may need to build to a class rather than showing up and finding myself competing way above my weight.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2019, 06:07:51 PM by Don R »
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Offline dragracer

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Re: 750A drag bike dreaming,
« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2019, 10:40:11 PM »
JUST my opinion but stick with keeping the bike street ET legal. You'll save a lot of $$ by keeping it simple and you will enjoy yourself a lot more with a basic bracket class. As to arms, take a look at the 1986-87 GSXR 1100 arms. They are longer, aluminum, and the width at the pivot is very close. YOu may have to make spacers/adapters in order to use the stock Honda pivot bolt. Another option is to simply drill the frame out to fit the OD of the stock GSXR arm pivot bolt. Be sure you get the rear axle and adjusters. You not also be able to use the stock 17 GSXR wheel and brake set up.

;D  My brother has 79 and 82 dohc 750's, there may be a set of carbs in his storage.
   I just went out to look at it and boy this thing is ugly. A race bike is it's destiny.
    There's enough parts on ebay to build a few of these so parting it shows no promise. I'll keep convincing myself a drag bike is a good investment.
  I have a 75F swingarm and disc brake I'm wondering about putting a 30mm VT1000 twin piston caliper on it. (I have two)  Those twin cam bikes may also have a long swinger but drum brakes.  Still cruising ebay for gs1100E stuff but it's really popular so $$$ and parted down to individual bolts.
  Also thinking I may need to build to a class rather than showing up and finding myself competing way above my weight.

Offline Don R

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Re: 750A drag bike dreaming,
« Reply #22 on: June 27, 2019, 07:27:53 AM »
Well as of this am I'm down 15 lbs in june, my pile of parts maybe racer just gained a couple hundredths. lol If it proceeds with the F parts aboard It will be named the F'nA.
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Offline Medyo Bastos

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Re: 750A drag bike dreaming,
« Reply #23 on: June 27, 2019, 04:07:37 PM »
Well as of this am I'm down 15 lbs in june, my pile of parts maybe racer just gained a couple hundredths. lol If it proceeds with the F parts aboard It will be named the F'nA.


Um, no...  I’ve got that! Matter o fact I fit an f tank onto the a frame!


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Offline Don R

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Re: 750A drag bike dreaming,
« Reply #24 on: June 27, 2019, 09:16:57 PM »
 Oh no! treed again!
  I checked with the source of the A and it was apparently abandoned in the yard of the house he bought by the PO. So, no info on why the pan and shift cover were removed. It appears more likely it will need to be split open.
No matter how many times you paint over a shadow, it's still there.
 CEO at the no kill motorcycle shop.
 You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.