Author Topic: Self made Hi-Po parts  (Read 7578 times)

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Offline livefast_dieold

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Self made Hi-Po parts
« on: July 16, 2019, 04:31:19 PM »
Not to compete with Mirko, he is another planet, but in my free time I've developed a couple of components for pure racing purposes, that are intended to be cheap hi-po parts for my CB750 in the first place, but I thought someone else here may be interested as well.

The first parts are pistons, with the help of a machinist friend we have perfected the art of transforming Kawasaki KZ650 pistons into high compressions pistons for our beloved race bikes. I've been using them quite successfully in the past, and now thanks to cruzinimage we can get the blanks at a very affordable price, they are available in 3 sizes 62, 62.5 and 63 mm (in my class I can go up to 63 mm diameter).
Upon receiving the pistons from them I must say I was quite impressed by the quality, quite impressive what you can get at that price! A friend here is using them on his big bore CB400 and have been racing them for 3 season, so I want to give them a try as well.
We design the valve pockets to be used with abuso valves (+2 mm vs OEM) and with my DP315 camshaft.
Using a "damaged" old piston we were able to precisely measure dome thickness and to mill the valve pockets cheking that there is enough material left in the piston dome.



Then we built a retainer system to replicate the milling precisely:





The end result:








Second component, inspired by Yoshimura double velocity stack carburettors (http://www.bikebros.co.jp/vb/sports/sfeat/yoshimura-carburetor-en/), and more recently by what Captain has developed for his DOCH750, 3D printed double velocity stack for smoothbore CR carburettors!
First I replicated Keihin original design and I had a long stack printed to see how it comes out:







Then I took out my old books from my college class on fluid dynamics and started to design a proper double stack:







The double stack has been carefully dimensioned on my set up, so 18.5 cm intake length (from valve to the end of carb, excluding the stack), 11:1 compression ratio, 63 mm piston diameter, 31 mm carb diameter. The long stack is 8 cm long (so 1.5 cm longer than the long keihin stack), the short one just 1 cm. Based on my calculations this setup should resonate at 7800 rpm and again at 9300 rpm.
Note that the OEM profile is a truncated cone, mine are elliptical, this should prevent/reduce detachment of the airflow from the stack. Also, the edge makes a complete U turn, OEM stops at 90°, which again helps with airflow detachment.

The double stack is being 3D printed as we speak, should be ready end of next week :-)






Offline 754

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Re: Self made Hi-Po parts
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2019, 06:01:16 PM »
What is Compression ratio on the 63 mm  ? Ist it 823 cc?
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Offline T1m32sh1n3

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Re: Self made Hi-Po parts
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2019, 06:08:06 PM »
Nice!

Offline dragracer

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Re: Self made Hi-Po parts
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2019, 09:17:02 PM »
I was trying to do pretty much the same thing using 72mm KZ1000 wiseco pistons but my machinist got cold feet. He didn't want to ruin a set of good pistons after screwing up one on his quickly fabricated piston holder. Your jig looks much better and seems to be what I really need to make this crossbreed project to work.

Offline bear

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Re: Self made Hi-Po parts
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2019, 10:05:52 PM »
We used high quality four valve Honda pistons and hand cut the valve pockets with a battery drill.
The cutter that we fabricated using one of our old valves is pictured below.
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Offline scottly

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Re: Self made Hi-Po parts
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2019, 10:17:40 PM »
Please post back-to-back dyno tests of the double stacks vs the single stacks. ;D
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Offline livefast_dieold

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Re: Self made Hi-Po parts
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2019, 12:31:26 AM »
What is Compression ratio on the 63 mm  ? Ist it 823 cc?

I need to measure again, but it should be 11:1/11.5:1. Total capacity is 785 cc

Offline livefast_dieold

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Re: Self made Hi-Po parts
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2019, 12:32:22 AM »
Please post back-to-back dyno tests of the double stacks vs the single stacks. ;D

I will, super curious about the end results!

Offline livefast_dieold

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Re: Self made Hi-Po parts
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2019, 02:26:57 AM »
I was trying to do pretty much the same thing using 72mm KZ1000 wiseco pistons but my machinist got cold feet. He didn't want to ruin a set of good pistons after screwing up one on his quickly fabricated piston holder. Your jig looks much better and seems to be what I really need to make this crossbreed project to work.

Cruzini has those pistons as well, if you want we can create a retainer for them too and using the same set up to mill them.
If you are interested I'll put you in contact with my machinist

Offline MessnerMoto

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Re: Self made Hi-Po parts
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2019, 02:36:16 AM »
excellent job done Ricc ;) I just forgot to tell you.... put some paint for plastic over those stacks.....
the color they are using for dyeing is not UV resistant and is not sealing PA12 pores... It will turn yellow pretty fast and it will absorb water, gas etc...

Offline livefast_dieold

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Re: Self made Hi-Po parts
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2019, 04:13:57 AM »
excellent job done Ricc ;) I just forgot to tell you.... put some paint for plastic over those stacks.....
the color they are using for dyeing is not UV resistant and is not sealing PA12 pores... It will turn yellow pretty fast and it will absorb water, gas etc...

the printer has a black gloss option, this was just a test so I got the cheaper version which is grey. Next batch will be black of course!

Offline gschuld

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Re: Self made Hi-Po parts
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2019, 07:15:03 AM »
Very nice work Riccardo👍
Good luck with the stacks...

George

Offline turboguzzi

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Re: Self made Hi-Po parts
« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2019, 12:06:14 PM »
looking good man! Would be interesting to cut in the middle the old melted piston, very strange that how the thickness goes so low in the center....

if you want to check flow of your stacks against original CRs (even if the main idea here is resonance and not max flow), you know where to find me :)

Totally agree that the stock CR stacks are compromised so to make them easier to produce,


Offline livefast_dieold

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Re: Self made Hi-Po parts
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2019, 02:02:40 PM »
looking good man! Would be interesting to cut in the middle the old melted piston, very strange that how the thickness goes so low in the center....

if you want to check flow of your stacks against original CRs (even if the main idea here is resonance and not max flow), you know where to find me :)

Totally agree that the stock CR stacks are compromised so to make them easier to produce,

Thanks Yossef! I'll give you a call tomorrow :-)

Offline Captain

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Re: Self made Hi-Po parts
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2019, 08:39:07 PM »
 On the dyno our 1187cc DOHC Superbike engine using the best combination of base and uppers resulted in a 5 HP increase from 6000 thru 11600 RPM over the OEM Keihin velocity stack and when adjusted out a further 10mm power rose another 2HP ................... That is a 7 HP total increase.
 To confirm these results they were removed and replaced with the OEM stacks and.......... Bang........ 7 HP less.

 Captain

Offline scottly

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Re: Self made Hi-Po parts
« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2019, 08:52:04 PM »
How about an update on the gear drive, Brent?
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
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Offline Captain

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Re: Self made Hi-Po parts
« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2019, 09:22:03 PM »
 Nothing to say until I have the full  lab report. 
“Anything” I say or anyone has said to date is purely conjecture until this report is completed.

Captain

Offline livefast_dieold

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Re: Self made Hi-Po parts
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2019, 01:36:56 AM »
On the dyno our 1187cc DOHC Superbike engine using the best combination of base and uppers resulted in a 5 HP increase from 6000 thru 11600 RPM over the OEM Keihin velocity stack and when adjusted out a further 10mm power rose another 2HP ................... That is a 7 HP total increase.
 To confirm these results they were removed and replaced with the OEM stacks and.......... Bang........ 7 HP less.

 Captain

One of the things I couldn't find much literature is the distance between the two stacks. I saw yours are adjustable, so you can play around with it a bit. I settle with a 2 mm distance at the end

Offline RAFster122s

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Re: Self made Hi-Po parts
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2019, 10:21:33 AM »
The lip of the stack is critical as the air is being pulled in  even from behind the opening, so if the lip does not curl back  onto the trumpet it can introduce turbulence. I recall reading the shape is also important but I do not recall what the shape is suppose to look like...other than not a circle/sphere is not ideal.
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Offline Captain

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Re: Self made Hi-Po parts
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2019, 10:46:38 AM »
In my case “Elliptical” is the shape form that proved to be superior.

Captain

Offline livefast_dieold

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Re: Self made Hi-Po parts
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2019, 01:09:47 PM »
Here's the finalized double stack!
Came out pretty neat.







If anyone is interested, I will run a batch next week.
George has already ordered 2 sets, if there is someone else interested please let me know, the more we order the more discount we can get. My guess is we can get around 25-20 € per piece, so 100 to 80 € per set.

Offline slikwilli420

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Re: Self made Hi-Po parts
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2019, 04:47:55 PM »
Do you have the stacks designed for round top carbs as well?  Id love to test a set on my race bike.
All you gotta do is do what you gotta do.

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Offline gschuld

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Re: Self made Hi-Po parts
« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2019, 05:50:38 PM »
Does anyone know where I can find the shortest commercially available velocity stacks for CR 29-33 carbs?  Like 25mm length perhaps...🤔

George

Offline livefast_dieold

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Re: Self made Hi-Po parts
« Reply #23 on: August 26, 2019, 12:40:13 AM »
Do you have the stacks designed for round top carbs as well?  Id love to test a set on my race bike.

Nope, I can design them but it's going to take a while...

Offline bwaller

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Re: Self made Hi-Po parts
« Reply #24 on: August 26, 2019, 05:02:11 AM »
George, have you checked with Sudco?