Author Topic: Firing / Running troubles on '76 CB550F in NYC  (Read 4294 times)

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Offline nopivnick

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Firing / Running troubles on '76 CB550F in NYC
« on: June 08, 2005, 03:40:02 PM »
I've got a '76 550F that's got a history with the following problem and it seems to be getting worse. She's difficult to get to fire when cold. Once warm and running she had a propensity to stall at idle – even more so after a prolonged ride. Now, if/when she fires and once she warms up she's sluggish and cuts out while moving unless I keep 'teasing' her with a lot of throttle. Following is what I've noted while trying to troubleshoot (with a battery that doesn't have enough juice to turn over the engine but does make the idiot lights glow)...


* Observations:

Lots of fumes (though of no particular color) coming out the exhaust when running.

Plugs from cylinders 1&2 look good, plugs from 3&4 were coated with classic fluffy black carbon fouling.

She seemed to be just a little more willing/wanting to fire when trying to test for spark on #4 plug while pulled (zero compression in cylinder).


* Questions:

Should a bike with a dead (though not garbage) battery be able to fire and run with kick start?

In the case of a battery without a proper charge, should I still be able to see spark jump on a plug that's pulled and held against the engine when I turn the kick starter?

Am I right in assuming pistons 1&2 are 'carrying' 3&4? If so, is it a safe assumption that timing/points are not the culprit?

Is it unusual for the exhaust and intake rocker arms to alternate being loose as a pair then being tight as a pair on cylinders 1&4 every other two complete revolutions of the crank?

I bought a compression gage at a local auto parts store but the threads on the fitting for the header are not right... does one usually need a compression tester *specifically* for bikes, or does one usually just have to buy the appropriate fitting?


as always, any help would be much appreciated! sadly, most of my more 'sophisticated' tools (voltmeter, etc.) are elsewhere and I'm working out on the sidewalk in nyc, so any spiffy low-cost troubleshooting 'cheats' to get me up and running would be great.

n.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Firing / Running troubles on '76 CB550F in NYC
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2005, 03:53:13 PM »
The spark voltage capacity is directly related to the battery voltage during starting.  Weak or dead battery equals weak or dead spark.  Further, the alternator doesn't make enough power to run lighting and charge the battery during idle.  A draining battery will eventually stop sparking the plugs.  Prolonged running in city traffic usually means you spend more time in lower RPMs where the alternator puts out minimal power.  And, your battery drains even further.

To get going, it might help to remove the headlight fuse until you can charge or replace and charge the battery.  And keep the RPMS up.  At least above 2000.

Your compression gauge needs an adapter.  Most likely you bought it from and automotive oriented store.

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline nopivnick

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Re: Firing / Running troubles on '76 CB550F in NYC
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2005, 04:09:40 PM »
Is it safe to assume that there's no correlation (direct or indirect) between a bike with a battery in need of a charge and the sluggish engine/carbon fouled plugs/stalling issues I had before I drained the juice trying to get the bike started again?

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Firing / Running troubles on '76 CB550F in NYC
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2005, 05:09:36 PM »
I don't have enough data to assume much of anything yet.
When you had the "sluggish engine/carbon fouled plugs/stalling issues" was the battery in known good condition with full charge?

How old is the battery? How long has it been in less than fully charged condition?

The fact that your plugs are in differnet conditions indicates something awry other than battery, too.  It's going to be difficult to go on to other diagnostic procedures without a decent battery at full charge.
Check for fuel contamination.  Drain and catch the drainage from each of your carb bowls.  If there are particles larger than .016 inch, you could have plugged slow jets in the carbs.  If you do, where did it come from?   Check the gas tank.  Any rust, scale in there?

Are any of your plugs fouled to the point where they won't jump the gap?
When you get it running, are the head pipe temps the same for each cylinder?  Cold ones point to where the problems lie.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline nopivnick

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Re: Firing / Running troubles on '76 CB550F in NYC
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2005, 11:39:19 AM »
I had the battery charged and she's still not firing.

Battery is less than a year old. I'd say it's sat for about a month without a full charge.

I put fine particle inline fuel filters after the petcock and before the carburetor before starting the bike this spring, but I'll drain the carburetor bowls and look.

Both headlight and taillight still illuminate even after I pulled the fuses... does this indicate a short?

Picked up a comp tester with the appropriate adaptor so am I off to check compression next?

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Firing / Running troubles on '76 CB550F in NYC
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2005, 12:06:33 PM »
Have you verified that each spark plug will arc across its gap?

You should have five fuses.  The labeling can be confusing.   From left to right it's spare, tail, headlight, main, and spare.  The center is the headlight. If you pull this and you still have the headlight on, it ain't stock anymore and I can't predict what is going on with your bike.

Until you can get it to run, you probably should use the kick start instead of the electric to conserve battery power and keep the voltage to ignition as high as possible.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline nopivnick

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Re: Firing / Running troubles on '76 CB550F in NYC
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2005, 04:06:34 PM »
I resurfaced, cleaned and adjusted the points and now spark arcs across gap on all four plug wires BUT... I only get a nice *blue* spark when the bike is actually *running* AND the only way I've managed to get the bike running (in which case it fires right up) is WHILE grounding a plug against the engine block to check for spark. Then, when I move the plug away from ground at the engine block, the bike stalls just a moment or two later.

Could corrosion or bad contact between the plugs and the head be the culprit? Also:

* the horn is not working and unfortunately ...

* yes, the headlamp remains lit even after pulling the headlamp fuse, so for the time being I've disconnected the headlamp until I can figure the rest of this business out.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Firing / Running troubles on '76 CB550F in NYC
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2005, 04:31:39 PM »
The Spark plugs fire in pairs and both need to complete a circuit for either to fire.  So, when you move the plug away from the ground path you lose fire on two cylinders.  The pairing is 1-4, 2-3.  When you get it to run, are all the exhaust head pipes the same temp.  You can flash touch the pipes with you're bare hand to feel the temp.  Do it fast, in won't burn you.  Colder pipes indicate cylinders that aren't doin it.


Could corrosion or bad contact between the plugs and the head be the culprit?

Probably not...  Do you see a lot of corrosion?

You've got some electrical gremlins to sort out for sure.  Maybe check your battery ground connection to engine and frame.  Then you could try to hot wire the coils with a piece of insulated wire 16 or 18 guage at least.  One end direct to battery plus the other end to the bk/w wire of each coil.  If you can't get reliable spark with that, it's multimeter time.

Did you find crud in the carb bowls?
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline nopivnick

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Re: Firing / Running troubles on '76 CB550F in NYC
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2005, 04:47:48 PM »
When you get it to run, are all the exhaust head pipes the same temp.

yes.



Could corrosion or bad contact between the plugs and the head be the culprit?

Probably not...  Do you see a lot of corrosion?

not particularly, no.


Did you find crud in the carb bowls?

haven't gotten to it yet.

Offline nopivnick

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Re: Firing / Running troubles on '76 CB550F in NYC
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2005, 12:53:56 PM »
crap. crap. crap.

I installed a new set of correctly gapped Champion 810c RA8HC plugs the bike fired then ran with a bit of back fire which got worse as did idle until it just ended up choking. I pulled the plugs and they were covered in a nice new coat of carbon fouling, cylinder 1&2 somewhat less so than 3&4, but blackness all around. I've removed the carburetor but need to buy some tools (damnit!) before I tear into them.

I need some carburetor cleaner, obviously. Can I use regular engine de-greaser to clean the gunk off the outside?

Read somewhere on this site I can use strands of copper from lamp wire to poke out clogged jets if need be... are there any other mandatory supplies I should pick up?

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Firing / Running troubles on '76 CB550F in NYC
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2005, 02:47:24 PM »
I hate to tell you this, but those plugs are resistor types.  Since, you already have resistors in the plug caps, having resistors in the spark plug, too, is not appropriate and can reduce your potential spark voltage.

Further, the correct cross to a champion type is RA6HC from an NGK D7EA, the later is what you are supposed to have.  I think these are still wrong for your bike, and Champion is just trying to sell what they have, instead of what you need.
http://www.gadgetjq.com/spark_plug_cross_reference_motorcycle.htm

Still, it seems you have a carburetion problem.  Did you find bad things in the float bowls?

Usually, carb crud causes lean mixtures, I thought.  How is your air filter?  If it is clogged up, it starts to behave like a choke, causing rich mixtures.

If you are taking the carbs apart, be aware there are o rings inside.  If they are 30 years old, it is unlikely they will survive an overhaul.  Many carb cleaners attack therse anyway, although I hear YamahaCarb cleaner doesn't.  The oring sizes aren't commonly found outside of motorcycle shop.  If you get them from Honda, they are about $15 per carb set.

Remember the small idle jet has a hole about .015 inch, you don't want to make that any bigger during your cleaning attempts.

Regular Engine degreaser has limited effectivenes on carb deposits.

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline nopivnick

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Re: Firing / Running troubles on '76 CB550F in NYC
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2005, 11:42:09 PM »
I've torn apart two of the four carbs (3&4, which feed the cylinders that seem to have the more pronounced carbon fouling) and in both cases there were nasty bits in the bowls but all the main and slow jets were clear. But you say that would cause too lean rather than too rich a mixture.

HOWEVER, both floats were set too high (just resting on the valve pin without compressing the spring the height was 25mm, not the 22mm stated by the manuals). But too high a setting translates into a lower fuel level in the bowl, right, so how would that create a too rich situation?

Also, the idle mixture air screw settings are all over the place and the manuals don't seem to agree on this one (Clymer says 1.5 to 2 turns out, versus Honda which says 1 plus or minus 1/8) turn. So, the further out, the leaner or richer the idle mix?

I have K&N pod-type filters which I cleaned and oiled when I pulled the bike out of storage.

And as an aside, is there any reason not to use a little touch of anti-seize on external carb body screws?

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Firing / Running troubles on '76 CB550F in NYC
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2005, 12:58:57 AM »
I've torn apart two of the four carbs (3&4, which feed the cylinders that seem to have the more pronounced carbon fouling) and in both cases there were nasty bits in the bowls but all the main and slow jets were clear. But you say that would cause too lean rather than too rich a mixture.

Yes, but that would explain erratic driveability  When the engine is suckin on the carb, the carb draws fuel through the jets.  Bounce. A nasty bit gets up to the jet but can't get though. Engine dies from fuel starvation (blocked jet), sucking stops, nasty bit falls back to bottom.  Engine restart, fuel flow returns. rider says "What the F*^K?"  Sound familiar?

HOWEVER, both floats were set too high (just resting on the valve pin without compressing the spring the height was 25mm, not the 22mm stated by the manuals). But too high a setting translates into a lower fuel level in the bowl, right, so how would that create a too rich situation?

Doesn't seem like it would to me either.

Also, the idle mixture air screw settings are all over the place and the manuals don't seem to agree on this one (Clymer says 1.5 to 2 turns out, versus Honda which says 1 plus or minus 1/8) turn. So, the further out, the leaner or richer the idle mix?

I have K&N pod-type filters which I cleaned and oiled when I pulled the bike out of storage.

These screws can make your idle mixture rich or lean.  Turn them out to make it leaner and in to make it richer.  The Honda spec assumes use of the stock filter with its restrictive characteristics.  It also assumes the stock exhaust, too.  Changes to these mean you will have find the correct idle mixture setting for your set up.  They should all be set to the same number of turns.  I would start with the factory setting.
Assuming everything else on the bike is happily working properly. I set these according to the throttle response desired.  If they are too far out (Lean) the engine will tend to wheeze and die when applying throttle.  If they are set to far in, the plugs can get sooty during idle periods.  I turn them out a little at a time until I can't stand the throttle hesitation.  Then back in just until I get the responsiveness I need from the throttle.  This assumes the main jet and slide needles are already matched to the engine breathing requirements for the throttle settings they are in play.
I should probably give you two warnings here.  One, it is possible to over-oil the foam in the filters.  This can cause added restriction and will only effect the carbs that have the over-oiled pods.  The added restriction will act as partial choke and make the mixture richer.  You'll have to assess whether this condition applies to your situation.
And two, tuning and adjusting carbs is the last thing to do after a complete tuneup.  The timing, plugs, cam chain tension, tappets, and air filter should all be in optimum condition before carbs are synchronized and fine tuned.  Otherwise there is risk that you'll have to fine tune the carbs again after other changes are made.  The good news is that once the carbs are fine tuned to the engine in this way.  Future tune ups won't involve the carbs at all!

And as an aside, is there any reason not to use a little touch of anti-seize on external carb body screws?

I've never tried it.  But, I know of no detrimental effects.

Also, since you are now into the carbs, check that the vent and drain hoses are clear.  Insects can make nests in them, plugging them up.  It's a simple check and a possible source path for nasty bits to enter the carb bowls.
Good Luck!
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline oldbiker

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Re: Firing / Running troubles on '76 CB550F in NYC
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2005, 01:37:11 AM »
I've been following this thread right through and it makes me wonder about the condition of the piston rings. If cylinders 3 and 4 are consistently covering the plugs with soft black fouling, it sounds as though there is excess oil getting into the combustion chambers. How much do you know about the mechanical condition of the motor? What milage has the bike done and has the oil been changed regularly?

Offline nopivnick

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Re: Firing / Running troubles on '76 CB550F in NYC
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2005, 01:24:13 PM »
I should probably give you two warnings here.  One, it is possible to over-oil the foam in the filters.  This can cause added restriction and will only effect the carbs that have the over-oiled pods.  The added restriction will act as partial choke and make the mixture richer.  You'll have to assess whether this condition applies to your situation.

My filters are gauze-type so I have no way of squeezing off excess oil like with foam. Sucking on them (fun!) seems pretty damn non-restrictive, so I'm going to assume excessive oil isn't a major consideration.

And two, tuning and adjusting carbs is the last thing to do after a complete tuneup.  The timing, plugs, cam chain tension, tappets, and air filter should all be in optimum condition before carbs are synchronized and fine tuned.  Otherwise there is risk that you'll have to fine tune the carbs again after other changes are made.  The good news is that once the carbs are fine tuned to the engine in this way.  Future tune ups won't involve the carbs at all!

Can't fine-tune timing and dwell untill I get the little #$%* running and upstate where all my proper tools are, but I did make all the appropriate static adjustments. As noted, air filters are clean. Timming chain tension is adjusted properly, too.

Also, since you are now into the carbs, check that the vent and drain hoses are clear.  Insects can make nests in them, plugging them up.  It's a simple check and a possible source path for nasty bits to enter the carb bowls.
Good Luck!

I assume "drain hoses" come off the float bowl overflow tubes? In which case, I have none. The overflow tubes are clear, however.

Which are the "vent (hoses)?"


I now have a bunch of carb/jet/parts questions, but I'll take it off this thread since (surprise, surprise) this whole 'get her to start' thing has turned into a muther of a project. damnit. this was supposed to be my running bike while I have at the '88 HawkNT that's in various stages of dissassembly.

Offline nopivnick

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Re: Firing / Running troubles on '76 CB550F in NYC
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2005, 01:30:11 PM »
How much do you know about the mechanical condition of the motor? What milage has the bike done and has the oil been changed regularly?

Unfortunately, I know absolutely squat about the bikes history. I've only had it for a year (doh!), the mileage is too high to bother remembering what it is (one hundred thousand plus) and the guy who supposedly 'restored' the bike doesn't seem to be interested in returning calls.

I picked up a pressure gauge to check compression, but all the literature says I've got to run the bike until warm before checking compression, so I'm kind of between a rock and a hard place...

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Firing / Running troubles on '76 CB550F in NYC
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2005, 01:39:15 PM »
Since you're having problems starting the bike when it's cold, it seems like knowing the cold compression could be usefull.

Might help rule out mechanical issues.  And, possibly a big dissapointment after you put in a set of freshly rebuilt carbs.

Just a thought...
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline nopivnick

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Re: Firing / Running troubles on '76 CB550F in NYC
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2005, 02:03:54 PM »
Since you're having problems starting the bike when it's cold, it seems like knowing the cold compression could be usefull.

Crap. I didn't know checking compression while the engine was cold was a viable and/or valuable test. I'll have at it tonight.

What sort of compression numbers am I looking for when testing compression in a cold engine?

I was told as the engine warms up, compression on a sick/leaking cylinder drops... is this correct?

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Firing / Running troubles on '76 CB550F in NYC
« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2005, 02:27:18 PM »
I wouldn't expect the numbers to be as high as when hot.  But, they should all be even or within 10%.  Even something in 100 range would be encouraging.

If you get low readings, try putting a teaspoon of oil into each cylinder and record readings again.  Oil can temporarily seal the rings but has little effect on leaky valves or head gaskets.

Remember, take out all the spark plugs, choke off, throttle wide open.  Kick start lever 'til you get the highest reading.  Repeat for next cylinder.

When the motor heats, the metal expands.  The pistons expand at a different rate than the cylinders.  You normally check when hot because that is what the typical run condition is.  And, it's best that all the parts expand to fit nicely at that temp.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline nopivnick

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Re: Firing / Running troubles on '76 CB550F in NYC
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2005, 05:50:15 PM »
Compression Results:

Cyl. 1     Cyl. 2     Cyl. 3     Cyl. 4
135psi   137psi    144psi    141psi

These are cold compression readings without any engine oil down the plug hole (didn't have any on hand). This is a good sign, right? Yes? Please?

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Firing / Running troubles on '76 CB550F in NYC
« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2005, 06:47:50 PM »
Yeah, looks good to me.  Probably not a source for your current problem.

You asked about carb vents; they are the ones next the the return spring.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

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Re: Firing / Running troubles on '76 CB550F in NYC
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2005, 01:32:36 PM »
Nick,

Do you ever hit the ear on sring st on tue nights?

Offline nopivnick

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Re: Firing / Running troubles on '76 CB550F in NYC
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2005, 02:14:00 PM »
nickbee /

are you talking to yourself or were you asking me? (apparently talking to the self is quite common among this crowd: http://www.sohc4.us/forums/index.php?topic=1925.msg14381#msg14381)

I've been to the EAR, though never on a bike, I can't recall whether it was a tuesday and I'm a noah, not a nick. Does that count?

n.

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Re: Firing / Running troubles on '76 CB550F in NYC
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2005, 05:13:21 PM »
Ok,, I was talking to you.. Noah (Not Nick)....

I'm from northern NJ and hit the ear on tue nights when the weather is decent.  block gets covered with bikes and lots of vintage stuff!!!!