Topic: Another CB550 Not Charging Thread

[TowelThief]

Hello and thanks for stopping in!

This bike is running and all electronics work on it aside from the battery not getting a charge.

I've been through all diagnostics and troubleshooting for the Stator/Field Coil and Reg/Rec (Ricks 10-100).  Hot-wired the battery to the field coil and was getting 40-60 VAC from the yellow wires....did all diode tests on the Reg/Rec and it passed.  I've also tested it with a 12v lead acid battery and still nothing....I run a WPS 12v Lithium Battery.

This is a custom wiring job from someone I left my bike with when I joined the military....got the bike back running and everything worked well until it died at a stop sign near my house and I diagnosed the not charging issue.  After further inspection it doesn't seem to be a great wiring job...may have to redo.

I've created a rough wiring diagram of my bike from just using the continuity setting on my multimeter....sorry if its hard to read...im stumped and at my electronic threshold.

Can all the diode tests for the Reg/Rec pass but it still be bad? 

I have a feeling something not getting back to the NEG or this "ShortStop Fuse" has something to do with it.

Thanks for any advice.

[TwoTired]

Got a voltmeter?

Need volts of battery.
Need volts black to Green.
Need volts white to green.

With an unknown rewire, add.
Volts battery POS to Reg black.
Volts Battery NEG to vreg Green.
Repeat with lighting off.

Cheers,

[bryanj]

You cant test the reg only the rec part.
Was everything else connected when you fend power to the field coil? If so did the batter charge?
If yes either you have bad connections OR ( and in my experience more likely) the electronic reg/rec is no good.
Sorry but i really cant understand this fad for electronic reg/rec when they fail far more often than the originals nor do i understand the use of anything other than lead acid batteries when the new stuff requires a far more precisely controled charging system than these bikes could possibly give.

Rant over going sleep now!

[TowelThief]

Got a voltmeter?

Need volts of battery.
Need volts black to Green.
Need volts white to green.

With an unknown rewire, add.
Volts battery POS to Reg black.
Volts Battery NEG to vreg Green.
Repeat with lighting off.

Cheers,

Is this with everything connected?
Volts black to green...is that R/R black to field coil green?

Was everything else connected when you fend power to the field coil? If so did the batter charge?

When I hot wired it I connected a spare wire from white to POS and a spare from green to NEG in the block connector. Everything else was on and connected.  I can’t recall if the battery charged. I will redo and check again tonight.

Also take a look at this fuse. All the connections are together and stacked. Is that OK?

Thanks!

[TowelThief]

In the attached, measure the voltage with your meter of the BLACK wire at the Fuse with the key ON, and then with the bike running at 3,000 and 5,000 RPMs.

Compare that to a direct reading of the battery under the same conditions.

One lead on the black wire at the fuse and where shall I put the other lead?

[bryanj]

What fuse?

[TowelThief]

What fuse?

This one. See attached

[Patrick]

One lead goes to the black wire, one to ground. The green wire is ground. Test with the black and green wires, but then test with leads to black wire and frame. The green wire grounds to the frame, so testing green wire and then frame against the black wire tests for a bad ground.

Patrick

[TwoTired]

Got a voltmeter?

Need volts of battery.
Need volts black to Green.
Need volts white to green.

With an unknown rewire, add.
Volts battery POS to Reg black.
Volts Battery NEG to vreg Green.
Repeat with lighting off.

Cheers,

Is this with everything connected?

Well, Volts is a live circuit measurement.  You won't get any readings if it isn't connected and switched on.

Volts black to green...is that R/R black to field coil green?

Why would you think that?  That would be split functions.  Though maybe your R/R makes those two common?

The R/R needs a battery negative reference to the black wire.  If you have two greens out of the R/R, one will be for the field and the other for a connection to Battery NEG via some solid galvanic pathway, frame, motor or direct wire.
The R/R uses these wires to "sense" what charge state/condition the battery currently has.  If the R/R can't get an accurate reading of the battery, you can't expect it to maintain a good charge state.

The R/R controls the alternator field coil via the White and green to the field coil.  The two greens on the unit may or may not be connected internally, as there is no guarantee any two aftermarket R/R designs will be the same.  You can check yours with an ohmmeter, though.

We know about stock bikes.  All the components are well known to us.  When you replace with aftermarket, you need to tell us the brand and model of the components you are using, if you want direct relevant advise.  Otherwise, we may or may not guess as well as you do.

Cheers,

[TowelThief]

Yes Ricks 10-100 has two green wires (ground and coil) that’s why I asked.  Ok. Will test when I get home.

[bryanj]

Cannot comment on that fuse and wiring, would need it physically in front of me not diagnosing via picture and diagrams sorry.

[TowelThief]

Got a voltmeter?

Need volts of battery.
Need volts black to Green.
Need volts white to green.

With an unknown rewire, add.
Volts battery POS to Reg black.
Volts Battery NEG to vreg Green.
Repeat with lighting off.

Volts of Battery = 12.9-13V when bike is on and running
R/R Black to Ground = 12.45 IGN on.....12.65 Running ....goes up to 12.75 @ 5k....then kind of floated at 12.7
R/R White to Ground = 14mV 

BATT POS to R/R Black .3V
BATT NEG to R/R Green 1.5mV

Lights were off.

Was everything else connected when you fend power to the field coil? If so did the batter charge?

Interesting findings....when I just hot wire the field coil to the battery and disconnect the three yellow rec wires I get 16-19V on all three and up to 60V @ 5k RPM.  When the three wires are connected I only get 11-12V coming off them and the battery only charges to 13.6V

In the attached, measure the voltage with your meter of the BLACK wire at the Fuse with the key ON, and then with the bike running at 3,000 and 5,000 RPMs.

Compare that to a direct reading of the battery under the same conditions.

R/R Black wire read 12.45V with IGN ON. When running it goes to 12.65V

Battery Reads 12.9 under the same conditions from idle to 5kRPM.

One lead goes to the black wire, one to ground. The green wire is ground. Test with the black and green wires, but then test with leads to black wire and frame. The green wire grounds to the frame, so testing green wire and then frame against the black wire tests for a bad ground.

Patrick

Again 12.45 Between R/R Black and BATT NEG with IGN ON

R/R Black and Frame/Engine When bike IGN ON....12.5V

[bryanj]

From the numbers you gave the generatot and rectifier are fine,
The battery needs charging,
The regulator side of the unit is toast.

[TowelThief]

From the numbers you gave the generatot and rectifier are fine,
The battery needs charging,
The regulator side of the unit is toast.

My battery is on a trickle charger most of the time. It floats around 13.5 when I take it off. When I start the bike it goes down to 13 then floats around 12.95 when I’m working on it then back up to 13-13.1v when I shut it off.

What would make a regulator go bad in one of these solid state R/R’s?

[TowelThief]

It is entirely possible the Ricks has gone kaput. And you chucks actually be using their model 14-100 with a lithium battery, not the 10-100. So if you need to replace yours, get that model.

About 6 months ago, there seemed to be a bad batch of Ricks RRs that hit the street. I can think of literally 8 members who all either received DOA units or had theirs take a dirt nap within weeks of installing them. They’re electronic units and sometimes sh!t happens.

This one has a 2015 manufacturing date...and that’s when it was installed by the guy I left the bike with. I saw ricks sells the 14-100...wonder if that was an option in 2015. Biggest thing is, I don’t want to buy the 14-100 and it go to #$%* because something is wired wrong  .

I did have to replace the main grounding cable when I went over the wiring a year ago. The main ground cable was a thin 20AWG wire running from BAT NEG all the way to the frame mounting bolt under the tank...I don’t even think the engine was grounded back then...but it ran.  I fixed this by getting some 2 AWG and putting it from BAT NEG to the right side frame/engine mounting bracket.  Maybe that’s why I can actually run the bike for awhile now and trouble shoot.  Last year it would die after a few minutes and I couldn’t start it back up without it sitting on the charger all night.

Will look into getting this 14-100 and see if it works.

[TwoTired]

Got a voltmeter?

Need volts of battery.
Need volts black to Green.
Need volts white to green.

With an unknown rewire, add.
Volts battery POS to Reg black.
Volts Battery NEG to vreg Green.
Repeat with lighting off.

Volts of Battery = 12.9-13V when bike is on and running
R/R Black to Ground = 12.45 IGN on.....12.65 Running ....goes up to 12.75 @ 5k....then kind of floated at 12.7
R/R White to Ground = 14mV 

BATT POS to R/R Black .3V
BATT NEG to R/R Green 1.5mV

Lights were off.

Probably ok, but I asked for tests both lighting on and off to see if there were wiring connection faults that change voltage under load conditions.  You drive with lighting on?

R/R white to ground at what RPM?  I expected this test run with alternator not spinning.  If not spinning, your regulator is sick, as the regulator should request full demand of the field coil when the alternator is not spinning.
The white to green measurement should be near battery voltage when the regulator senses a battery voltage low (which is should be with any electrical load on it).
Battery lithium?   A lead acid battery needs a voltage at it's terminals higher than 12.8v in order to do any charging.  (Lithium, higher V than 13V, I think).
The reg should put the white wire at full battery voltage, whenever the battery needs charge (below 13.8V for lead acid).  The stock regulator pulses the white wire on a full charge battery, to average 13.8v to 14.5v at the battery.  Aftermarket R/R designs may pulse or alternately provide steady V in proportion to demand.   Your meter may "average" it's readings, but if it's digital sampling, there could be frequency aliasing that won't give a true reading, where it measures in the 'slots' of the pulses.

Good news is that your wiring is likely ok.  But, you need to find out if the white wire measurement ever goes higher than 14mv when the battery is low and the alternator revved.  If not, = bad reg.

Cheers,

[TowelThief]

Got a voltmeter?

Need volts of battery.
Need volts black to Green.
Need volts white to green.

With an unknown rewire, add.
Volts battery POS to Reg black.
Volts Battery NEG to vreg Green.
Repeat with lighting off.

Volts of Battery = 12.9-13V when bike is on and running
R/R Black to Ground = 12.45 IGN on.....12.65 Running ....goes up to 12.75 @ 5k....then kind of floated at 12.7
R/R White to Ground = 14mV 

BATT POS to R/R Black .3V
BATT NEG to R/R Green 1.5mV

Lights were off.

Probably ok, but I asked for tests both lighting on and off to see if there were wiring connection faults that change voltage under load conditions.  You drive with lighting on?

R/R white to ground at what RPM?  I expected this test run with alternator not spinning.  If not spinning, your regulator is sick, as the regulator should request full demand of the field coil when the alternator is not spinning.
The white to green measurement should be near battery voltage when the regulator senses a battery voltage low (which is should be with any electrical load on it).

Cheers,

Two Tired...here are the numbers with lights on.  Everything was connected.

Volts of Battery = 12.9V when IGN on...............12.85V when Running @ idle (1200-1300)
R/R Black to Ground = 11.9V IGN on.....12.17V Running  (the R/R black wire shares that Fuse bar with every other thing that needs 12V on the bike...like the picture a few post ago shows...does that make any difference?)
R/R White to Ground = 14.1mV  IGN on.......13.3mV running @ idle..........6mV @ 4k

BATT POS to R/R Black 1V IGN on.....  .6V Running @ idle
BATT NEG to R/R Green 2mV  IGN on........ 1.2 mV running @ idle

Right off the trickle charger my Batt was @ 13.55V...with lights on it goes to 13.15 then makes its way to 12.9 and kinda hangs out. When I shut it all off it then reads 13.1V

If the Regulator is bad what exactly would cause one to go kaput?

THANKS FOR THE COMMENTS AND PATIENCE WITH ME! Learning!

[scottly]

In your drawing, you have the green field wire connected to the green reg wire. Both of those wires need to be connected to ground, not just each other.

[TowelThief]

In your drawing, you have the green field wire connected to the green reg wire. Both of those wires need to be connected to ground, not just each other.

Correct. They are grounded through a second green wire connected to BAT NEG. As shown in my diagram and in this diagram from Ricks 10-100 unit.

[scottly]

That drawing isn't correct; with the stock wiring harness, both the field wire and the reg wire are connected to a common green ground wire. Ground them. Also, the 10-100 is not for lithium batteries. Rick has a lithium specific reg/rec.

[TwoTired]

The voltage measurement with lights on and then off are only relevant when the battery is at or very near the same charge state.  Charging the battery between readings tells me nothing about the wiring quality of your bike since source conditions changed between readings. 

At any rate, your measurements show no significant voltage increase on the white wire, which is driven from the Vreg.  As long as you are certain that full battery voltage is getting to the black and green wires of the reg,  no output on the white indicates a bad regulator.

What caused it?  Well one possibility is jumpering 12 v from black to white without disconnecting the white wire from the reg.  This places voltage on the output of the reg, where it is supposed to be the sole driver of that line.    You can safely jumper/bridge Blk/Wht on the stock Vreg, without harm, as it has mechanical connections.  An electronic regulator has a silicon device driver for the output and messing with the junction biasing with jumpering can blow the device diver.

Lots of other possibilities of course.  But, unless you provide a list of conditions it was subjected to, it's all just guessing how it was abused enough for damage, or simply failed as a weak/marginal design or component.  Dissection might gain a clue.  If that is even possible.  The last Vreg that was damaged as I outlined above, was potted with epoxy, so you couldn't even get to the working components inside to replace what was damaged, without hours of careful picking away at the potting compound.

Cheers,

[scottly]

Ground both the field green and regulator green wires and test.

[TowelThief]

Ground both the field green and regulator green wires and test.

OK.

I disconnected the R/R green wire from the block connector and grounded it to the frame.  I then jumped a spare wire from the block connector (green) to the bracket on the right where main ground connects.

My measurements from White (connected from R/R to block connector) to ground.
Flip the Key on......11.8vdc  (lights on)  Running @ idle it was at 12vdc...@3K rpm it only went up to 12.05vdc.

Battery doesnt show any 'charging'

While it was running I checked the VAC coming from the 3 yellow wires and im only getting a .5v @ idle and up to 1.6V @ 4k rpm....I havent done it yet but if I were to unplug the yellow wires at the block connector to the R/R and then measure VAC coming from the stator I would get 18v at idle (just like I explained in an earlier post)....would that mean a bad rectifier?


Now...I can also get 12VDC from White to Ground by disconnecting either (or both) of the field coil wires (white and green) from the connections between the field coil and the block connector.

[scottly]

My measurements from White (connected from R/R to block connector) to ground.
Flip the Key on......11.8vdc  (lights on)  Running @ idle it was at 12vdc...@3K rpm it only went up to 12.05vdc.

Battery doesnt show any 'charging'

You should be measuring the voltage at the battery terminals, not at the output of the regulator on the white wire, which needs to be connected to the white field coil wire for the system to work. Since the voltage did increase with rpm, it would appear that your system may be charging, but since the battery is run down, it will take time to recharge and the voltage to come up.

[TowelThief]

My measurements from White (connected from R/R to block connector) to ground.
Flip the Key on......11.8vdc  (lights on)  Running @ idle it was at 12vdc...@3K rpm it only went up to 12.05vdc.

Battery doesnt show any 'charging'

You should be measuring the voltage at the battery terminals, not at the output of the regulator on the white wire, which needs to be connected to the white field coil wire for the system to work. Since the voltage did increase with rpm, it would appear that your system may be charging, but since the battery is run down, it will take time to recharge and the voltage to come up.

New measurements with the green wires now grounded are as follows.

Bike on and running with lights

Volts of Battery = 12.85V when @ idle (1200-1300)
R/R Black to Ground = 12.05V
R/R White to Ground = 12.05V 

BATT POS to R/R Black .785v idle
BATT NEG to R/R Green 12.05V idle

I ran it for about 5 minutes....when I would get up to 3k-4k I would get about a .01-.02V change upward but the battery slowly went down to 12.77V before I ended the testing....am I not suppose to see 13.5V on the battery @4k??

Turning the lights off gives me another .10V but still doesnt show a jump when giving it gas at 3-4k rpm