Topic: Another CB550 Not Charging Thread

[scottly]

BATT NEG to R/R Green 12.05V idle

Battery neg to either of the R/R greens should be near zero volts in any case, at any RPM. If you are reading 12v, the green wire is NOT grounded.

[TowelThief]

BATT NEG to R/R Green 12.05V idle

Battery neg to either of the R/R greens should be near zero volts in any case, at any RPM. If you are reading 12v, the green wire is NOT grounded.

I apologize.  I was measuring the green field coil wire at the block connector...these wires are all starting to blend together 

BATT NEG TO R/R Green is .5mV while at idle.

Still no charge on the battery....AC voltage from the stator wires reads .3-.4 VAC across the three at idle. Goes to about 1.5V at 5k.  Same readings if I disconnect the three stator wires from the R/R.

[bryanj]

I am now confused, you said if you put battery power to the green and the white field coil wires you got 60vac at the yellow leads, and later you said you were getting 13 ish vdc at the battery,  if those numbers are correct no matter what type or how old the battery is IT IS JUNK

[RAFster122s]

You do understand that the bike is not capable of recharging a discharged battery and that it can only maintain and charge a good battery.  If your battery is good then the bike with a healthy charging system can maintain the bike's power needs and replace what is taken out of the battery if it is ran often /long enough at RPMs that are providing a charge surplus. Operating for short trips at lower rpms  you would see in short city trips won't keep the battery charged and it will need to be charged by a battery charger to keep the battery healthy.

Are you recharging the battery between these tests you are performing?

The numbers you are quoting for your battery voltage readings are not that of a healthy lead acid battery or a healthy Lithium battery either.

[TwoTired]

I ran it for about 5 minutes....when I would get up to 3k-4k I would get about a .01-.02V change upward but the battery slowly went down to 12.77V before I ended the testing....am I not suppose to see 13.5V on the battery @4k??

Turning the lights off gives me another .10V but still doesnt show a jump when giving it gas at 3-4k rpm

What was the charge state of the Battery?  The battery charge status dominates the system voltage.  Not the charging system.

A flat battery can take 10 hours on bike @ 4-5K RPM to reach a full charge status and full voltage.

All charging voltage test must be done with a known good fully charged battery, in order to evaluate the charging system, rather than the battery condition or quality.

A low or dead battery is a huge sink, that will tax a charging system that normally only provides 1-2 amps for battery recharge.   Conversely, a good battery easily can supply 100-120 amps for starting purposes, and far more under direct short of it's output terminals.  You can weld metal with the battery in good condition.  The charging system can't do that!

If the alternator field is being provided full battery voltage or there abouts, the alternator is doing the best it can, in proportion to the rpm it is spinning.  150 watts minimum at 5000 RPM, and about 1/3 of that during idle. The bike total electrical load includes battery demands.  The battery charge state dominates the system voltage, not the charging system.  The Vreg only protects the battery from too high a voltage when it is at full charge, reducing the green/white voltage.  At all other times it should be drive the alternator with full voltage so it is able to produce all it can, which supplies both bike loads and battery needs.

Cheers,

[Bodi]

If you have ground on one field coil wire and battery voltage on the other, that's 100% alternator output at whatever RPM it's doing.
You can do a hillbilly field coil check by holding a steel tool on the alternator cover: with field coil energized you should feel a definite magnetic attraction toward the cover, nothing with field coil off. Thise coils are pretty much bulletproof but could fail. You could also measure field coil current with an ammeter, it should be around 4 amps I think.

[TwoTired]

Bodi helped me think about asking if you have measured the resistance of the field coil?

Best be about 4.8-ish ohms, excluding measurement error.  Measure this from the White green connections at the vreg, with vreg disconnected.


Cheers,

[TowelThief]

Bodi helped me think about asking if you have measured the resistance of the field coil?

Best be about 4.8-ish ohms, excluding measurement error.  Measure this from the White green connections at the vreg, with vreg disconnected.


Cheers,

Sorry I have been busy these past few days and can’t run tests until the weekend. I plan on providing you guys with some more information to better clarify what I’m looking at.

Ohms of the Field Coil are 4.0. That’s with resistance of the leads on my meter factored in.

[TwoTired]

Ohms of the Field Coil are 4.0. That’s with resistance of the leads on my meter factored in.

That's a bit low.  If accurate, it will reduce the efficiency of the alternator, lessen it's output peak.  Indicates shorted windings.

Cheers,

[scottly]

BATT NEG to R/R Green 12.05V idle

Battery neg to either of the R/R greens should be near zero volts in any case, at any RPM. If you are reading 12v, the green wire is NOT grounded.

I apologize.  I was measuring the green field coil wire at the block connector...these wires are all starting to blend together 

The green field coil wire should also be zero volts from the battery negative terminal. ALL solid green wires are connected to ground.

[TowelThief]

My battery numbers are consistent....It is a lithium ion battery...sits on a 750mA charger when im not testing it.  Off the charger its 13.56V....after an hour there is no change....Turn Key (running brake lights and a speedo light) 13.2 (with Headlight 12.9)....After running tests for an hour with lights and stopping and starting the bike, the voltage obviously goes down.  I have done tests with a brand new lead acid battery with no change in results (I believe I reported that in an earlier post)

I hotwired it today.  When I just hotwire the POS Batt to white and NEG Batt to green in the block connector I get 18VAC between the yellow wires and idle about 20 @ 2k and up to 60 at 5k....obviously no charge to battery.

When I add the 3 yellow R/R wires to the block connector with the above hot wire I get 10 VAC between the yellows at idle and only up to 12VAC at 5k..the battery charges from 12.9 at idle to 13.3 at 5k.

BATT NEG to R/R Green 12.05V idle

Battery neg to either of the R/R greens should be near zero volts in any case, at any RPM. If you are reading 12v, the green wire is NOT grounded.

I apologize.  I was measuring the green field coil wire at the block connector...these wires are all starting to blend together 

The green field coil wire should also be zero volts from the battery negative terminal. ALL solid green wires are connected to ground.

I was working with a bad test wire that I was connecting to the Field coil green and ground....I replaced it and these numbers followed.

Right, so the Ricks R/R has 3 Yellow/ 1 White / 1 thinner Green / 1 Black / 1 Thick Red / 1 thick Green.

They were connected as shown in the Diagram on an early post....yellows, white and thin green to the block connector...black to AUX Fuse block....thick red to POS.....thick green to NEG.

I was getting 14.1mV on white when on and 1.2mV on block connector green

If I disconnect the thin green from the block connector I get 12V on the white wire....I also get 12V on the green connector tab....

If I GROUND the thin green R/R wire and use a test wire to ground the field coil green (from block connector to ground).....white read 12.9mV at the block connector and green at the block connector reads .3mV

The White wire gets 12V when the bike is on and its not connected to anything....just dangling from the R/R.

[bryanj]

One last time YOUR BATTERY IS CRAP

[TowelThief]

One last time YOUR BATTERY IS CRAP

I hope so that would be the cheap option.

[RAFster122s]

This is still the Rick's unit which is NOT designed for Lithium batteries, right?  Wouldn't that be one of the things you should be changing so the Lithium battery has a prayer of being treated better?

[TowelThief]

This is still the Rick's unit which is NOT designed for Lithium batteries, right?  Wouldn't that be one of the things you should be changing so the Lithium battery has a prayer of being treated better?

I believe the only difference is the voltage set point. 14 +/- .2 for the 14-100 (lithium) and 14.8 for the 10-100.

At this point I am going to start replacing items.

Sending the Field Coil for a refab.

Getting a new R/R.

Trying yet another AGM battery or a new Shorai.

Thanks guys. Will check in later.

[TowelThief]

I'll preface this post by saying this bike was given to a "bike builder" to finish when I joined the military....I picked it up a year after dropping it off...it ran, until it died on me and I tested the battery and found out it wasn't charging.

I vaguely remember him saying he "upgraded" the coils...after reading a bit tonight and seeing that the coils effect the charging system I went out to check them.

They are TEK MP-08 coils...they seem to be off of more modern bikes and measure 3.4ohms across the pins...could this be sucking all the charge?

[scottly]

  When I just hotwire the POS Batt to white and NEG Batt to green in the block connector I get 18VAC between the yellow wires and idle about 20 @ 2k and up to 60 at 5k....obviously no charge to battery.

When I add the 3 yellow R/R wires to the block connector with the above hot wire I get 10 VAC between the yellows at idle and only up to 12VAC at 5k..the battery charges from 12.9 at idle to 13.3 at 5k.

No, the coils are not the problem.
What is this "block connector" you keep referring to? Please post a pic.
This isn't a stock wiring system, so we have no idea how it's wired. Your stator tests good, and hot-wiring the field coil proves it's good as well.

[bryanj]

The battery is not accepting charge pleas fit a lead acid one instead of all this lithium crap

[titochachang]

I'll preface this post by saying this bike was given to a "bike builder" to finish when I joined the military....I picked it up a year after dropping it off...it ran, until it died on me and I tested the battery and found out it wasn't charging.

I vaguely remember him saying he "upgraded" the coils...after reading a bit tonight and seeing that the coils effect the charging system I went out to check them.

They are TEK MP-08 coils...they seem to be off of more modern bikes and measure 3.4ohms across the pins...could this be sucking all the charge?

I have been told the closer to 5.0 the better...

[TwoTired]

The stock 550 coils are ~5 ohms and driven with 12 volts by the points over 190 Degrees of crank rotation.  So, roughly each one is on half the time.  I = E/R, so current draw is about 2.4 amps or 28.8 watts.  That's the stock ignition budget, ~30 watts.

3 ohm coils driven with a points system, draw about 4 amps each or 48 watts.  (With 190 degrees duty cycle.)

A dyna-s ignition turns the coil OFF for 27 degrees of crank rotation, this leaves them on for 92.5 % of the time.  Two coils draw 96 watts x 92.5% = 88.8 Watts

Stock charging system makes a minimum of 150 watts @ 5000 RPM.  And about 1/3 of that at idle, or 50 Watts. Yep battery drain.

To find out if your bike can charge the battery (ever) you have to add the field coil draw and any lighting draw your bike has.

Cheers,

[scottly]

They are TEK MP-08 coils...they seem to be off of more modern bikes and measure 3.4ohms across the pins...could this be sucking all the charge?

You have no charging to be sucking from..

[Spanner 1]

Again and again the stock regulator and rectifier gets thrown away and always without actual proof they are bad. Again and again the charging problem lies elsewhere 

[PeWe]

Go back to stock regulator, rectifier and battery.

I replaced the Honda regulator since it suddenly stopped charging. Caught in the act after I installed a dig voltmeter. See photo.
Problem understood thanks to forum member bryanj that knew this as an old "known" issue. Regulator relay could enter a middle position. A bump in the road kicked it in correct position and voltage suddenly OK. Exact what I saw.

I replaced regulator with a good old one never tampered with and fine after that.
I recommend a voltage meter. You'll see how the system works and correct values only seen with fully charged battery that take cruising time on +4500 rpms after low rpm riding using blinkers, brake light.

I connected mine to closest black and green. Work fine.
CB750 or 5x0 same #$%* here, right? You'll see the problem before battery is drained.

Dyna 3 ohm coil tested with Dyna-S. Battery drained really quick so back to shop and trade back to 5 ohm version.

These coils now replaced by Honda stock coils from DSS since one of the coils did not work properly on low rpm.
I need to measure both coils before I call Dyna for crap. The Dynatek graphite HT leads I purchased with the initial 3 ohm coils replaced within a year, one of them broken inside from the very beginning.
Occasional issues on one cylinder turned to permanent off. I rejetted carbs in vain!!

[TowelThief]

  When I just hotwire the POS Batt to white and NEG Batt to green in the block connector I get 18VAC between the yellow wires and idle about 20 @ 2k and up to 60 at 5k....obviously no charge to battery.

When I add the 3 yellow R/R wires to the block connector with the above hot wire I get 10 VAC between the yellows at idle and only up to 12VAC at 5k..the battery charges from 12.9 at idle to 13.3 at 5k.

No, the coils are not the problem.
What is this "block connector" you keep referring to? Please post a pic.
This isn't a stock wiring system, so we have no idea how it's wired. Your stator tests good, and hot-wiring the field coil proves it's good as well.

Block connector

[scottly]

OK, thanks for the pic. The green field coil wire on your block connector originally plugged into a green wire in the mating harness block connector. This green wire is connected to frame ground. There are several branches of this solid green wire in the harness, including one that goes to the stock regulator, and one that goes to the rectifier. Any device, regulator, rectifier, field coil, head light, horn etc with a solid green wire must be connected to frame ground. This is accounted for with the stock harness, but as you do not have a stock harness, you need to make sure all green wires are grounded, not just connected to each other.