Topic: Another CB550 Not Charging Thread

[TwoTired]

The stock 550 coils are ~5 ohms and driven with 12 volts by the points over 190 Degrees of crank rotation.  So, roughly each one is on half the time.  I = E/R, so current draw is about 2.4 amps or 28.8 watts.  That's the stock ignition budget, ~30 watts.

3 ohm coils driven with a points system, draw about 4 amps each or 48 watts.  (With 190 degrees duty cycle.)

A dyna-s ignition turns the coil OFF for 27 degrees of crank rotation, this leaves them on for 92.5 % of the time.  Two coils draw 96 watts x 92.5% = 88.8 Watts

Stock charging system makes a minimum of 150 watts @ 5000 RPM.  And about 1/3 of that at idle, or 50 Watts. Yep battery drain.

To find out if your bike can charge the battery (ever) you have to add the field coil draw and any lighting draw your bike has.

Cheers,

[scottly]

They are TEK MP-08 coils...they seem to be off of more modern bikes and measure 3.4ohms across the pins...could this be sucking all the charge?

You have no charging to be sucking from..

[Spanner 1]

Again and again the stock regulator and rectifier gets thrown away and always without actual proof they are bad. Again and again the charging problem lies elsewhere 

[PeWe]

Go back to stock regulator, rectifier and battery.

I replaced the Honda regulator since it suddenly stopped charging. Caught in the act after I installed a dig voltmeter. See photo.
Problem understood thanks to forum member bryanj that knew this as an old "known" issue. Regulator relay could enter a middle position. A bump in the road kicked it in correct position and voltage suddenly OK. Exact what I saw.

I replaced regulator with a good old one never tampered with and fine after that.
I recommend a voltage meter. You'll see how the system works and correct values only seen with fully charged battery that take cruising time on +4500 rpms after low rpm riding using blinkers, brake light.

I connected mine to closest black and green. Work fine.
CB750 or 5x0 same #$%* here, right? You'll see the problem before battery is drained.

Dyna 3 ohm coil tested with Dyna-S. Battery drained really quick so back to shop and trade back to 5 ohm version.

These coils now replaced by Honda stock coils from DSS since one of the coils did not work properly on low rpm.
I need to measure both coils before I call Dyna for crap. The Dynatek graphite HT leads I purchased with the initial 3 ohm coils replaced within a year, one of them broken inside from the very beginning.
Occasional issues on one cylinder turned to permanent off. I rejetted carbs in vain!!

[TowelThief]

  When I just hotwire the POS Batt to white and NEG Batt to green in the block connector I get 18VAC between the yellow wires and idle about 20 @ 2k and up to 60 at 5k....obviously no charge to battery.

When I add the 3 yellow R/R wires to the block connector with the above hot wire I get 10 VAC between the yellows at idle and only up to 12VAC at 5k..the battery charges from 12.9 at idle to 13.3 at 5k.

No, the coils are not the problem.
What is this "block connector" you keep referring to? Please post a pic.
This isn't a stock wiring system, so we have no idea how it's wired. Your stator tests good, and hot-wiring the field coil proves it's good as well.

Block connector

[scottly]

OK, thanks for the pic. The green field coil wire on your block connector originally plugged into a green wire in the mating harness block connector. This green wire is connected to frame ground. There are several branches of this solid green wire in the harness, including one that goes to the stock regulator, and one that goes to the rectifier. Any device, regulator, rectifier, field coil, head light, horn etc with a solid green wire must be connected to frame ground. This is accounted for with the stock harness, but as you do not have a stock harness, you need to make sure all green wires are grounded, not just connected to each other.

[Spanner 1]

Scottly +1. I've been saying this too. The green on your aftermarket reg/rect, is not ' a ground', rather a wire that needs to go to ground. Same as the green from the field coil, it is not a ground but a wire that must be grounded. Plugging these green wires together does nothing and the rect/reg will not work as neither green are actually grounded to frame. The solid state r/r must have a ground reference to work

[TwoTired]

"Ground" does not *HAVE* to be the frame.  (Although it is good to have it at that potential.)  In fact, you do NOT want currents to routinely pass through the frame, as that can advance corrosion. Obviously it is not a real ground, or earth connection as the tires insulate the bike from actual earth ground.

What you MUST have is a viable pathway from each electrical device to battery NEG.  Honda provided that with the green routing wires in the harness, as that is proper electrical practice for longevity.

"Ground" on these bikes is actually a common reference potential well tied/connected to battery NEG.  Power flows in a loop to device POS and returns on Device NEG.  The device fails to operate correctly when either of these pathways are compromised.

Cheers,

[Spanner 1]

TT and another superfluous epilogue when he did not figure out the solution to the problem. Every 2 and 4 wheel vehicle on the planet uses frame ground as a conductor. Get over it . 

[TwoTired]

TT and another superfluous epilogue when he did not figure out the solution to the problem. Every 2 and 4 wheel vehicle on the planet uses frame ground as a conductor. Get over it . 

That's incorrect.  They use frame ground as a reference, not a routine conductor in good designs.  (apart from momentary starter motor currents) At least, if they want to avoid galvanic corrosion.

Get some education. 

[scottly]

TT and another superfluous epilogue when he did not figure out the solution to the problem. Every 2 and 4 wheel vehicle on the planet uses frame ground as a conductor. Get over it . 

That's incorrect.  They use frame ground as a reference, not a routine conductor in good designs.  (apart from momentary starter motor currents) At least, if they want to avoid galvanic corrosion.

Get some education. 

The stock Honda harness common green wire is "grounded" to the steel frame, either at the coil mount under the gas tank, or near the battery, depending on year and model. The battery negative terminal is also "grounded" to the steel frame at a different location, and this heavy gauge cable carries not only the momentary starter currents but also the "routine" currents. Are you saying Honda did it wrong, Lloyd?

[Tracksnblades1]

"Ground" does not *HAVE* to be the frame.  (Although it is good to have it at that potential.)  In fact, you do NOT want currents to routinely pass through the frame, as that can advance corrosion. Obviously it is not a real ground, or earth connection as the tires insulate the bike from actual earth ground.

What you MUST have is a viable pathway from each electrical device to battery NEG.  Honda provided that with the green routing wires in the harness, as that is proper electrical practice for longevity.

"Ground" on these bikes is actually a common reference potential well tied/connected to battery NEG.  Power flows in a loop to device POS and returns on Device NEG.  The device fails to operate correctly when either of these pathways are compromised.

Cheers,

This power flow "to device POS and returns on device NEG". Are you referencing Conventional Current flow or Electron current flow.

Understandably, power relates to current delivery measured in watts.

I snapped a screenshot of some current Honda OEM cbr500 rear turn signal lights

[TwoTired]

  The stock Honda harness common green wire is "grounded" to the steel frame, either at the coil mount under the gas tank, or near the battery, depending on year and model. The battery negative terminal is also "grounded" to the steel frame at a different location, and this heavy gauge cable carries not only the momentary starter currents but also the "routine" currents. Are you saying Honda did it wrong, Lloyd?

Last I looked, Honda choose a pretty direct path with no welds for the primary current path.  It's a "considered path".  There are some that then assume anywhere on the frame is equivalent.  It is not.  Welds with gaps or dissimilar metals, are prone to galvanic corrosion with currents passing through them.  I wouldn't assume all the welds on a production Honda frame are perfect.

But, who cares if one only expects a couple year life out of the machine, or until it is sold for profit?

Cheers,

[Don R]

 I'm one of those guys that use the frame as a mount for the wires that loop back to the battery. I put the ground cable between the frame and engine when I can. On the race cars I've worked on, they ground the heads to the mag and chassis so a spark doesn't jump to the piston.

[TwoTired]

This power flow "to device POS and returns on device NEG". Are you referencing Conventional Current flow or Electron current flow.

High school and Navy/military schools taught "conventional" to thousands, maybe millions.  I was one of them.  I later learned from college snobs that this was "hole theory" rather than actual electron flow.  Doesn't effect much in the way of electrical equations, or the way things need to be connected in order to function.  Chemistry, yes.  But, the integrity of the current loop must be intact using either theory.

I snapped a screenshot of some current Honda OEM cbr500 rear turn signal lights

And what is the relevance of a "parts breakers" picture?  It shows no connection or attachment method to frame, or pathway beck to battery terminals.

Many signals are rubber vibration isolated.  This of course breaks the electrical path, requiring an augmentation to make it complete.  For example, the CB550 grab bar connects directly to frame and the turn signal attaches to it.  The signal socket galvanically attaches to an added bracket that surrounds the rubber, separating the path to the grab rail.  The turn signal Green attaches to the bracket and then routes to bike harness green.  Why do you suppose they added an extra bracket and wire for green path when the frame was so conveniently accessible?  Answer: to avoid sending currents to/through frame or joints to the frame.  Same is true for front turn sigs on models I have examined.  I can't speak for all motorcycles or cars I haven't examined.  But, I think I understand the pitfalls and benefits of electrical attachment methods.  Galvanic corrosion is a real thing.  There are many references and explanations on the interwebs.

Cheers,

[Tracksnblades1]

I'm one of those guys that use the frame as a mount for the wires that loop back to the battery. I put the ground cable between the frame and engine when I can. On the race cars I've worked on, they ground the heads to the mag and chassis so a spark doesn't jump to the piston.

Yep, everything is on a diet there.

Those magnetos and their ac sparks can wake a guy up....😳

We always used ground jumpers to engines, fire walls and the like incorporating rubber mounts.

Chevrolet, Ford, Chrysler, used little braided wire cables  going from engine to fire wall back in the old days. I unhooked the ones on my 327's valve covers just to see what they did. It wasn't readily apparent but it showed it's nasty head at anything over 4500 rpm.  But that was back in them Old point days.

Below NOS 750 point plates. Completing the circuit to the engine......

[RAFster122s]

Things like instrument senders on the motor can route ground through a dash instrument on a car. Forgot to reattach ground strap on a 66 Volvo 122S I had the motor out of for rebuild and it overheated the temp gauge terminals until I found it and corrected it. Fortunately I did not have to replace the gauge.

David

[scottly]

Last I looked, Honda choose a pretty direct path with no welds for the primary current path.
Cheers,

Last time I looked at a K7 750, there were several welds between the green wire frame ground point and the battery negative frame ground point.

[Spanner 1]

In the ten years I've been  on this forum I've never seen TT admit he's wrong or didn't know the answer. Never.

[TwoTired]

In the ten years I've been  on this forum I've never seen TT admit he's wrong or didn't know the answer. Never.

As usual, you haven't been paying attention.  Not that you will admit to that...

[Tracksnblades1]

This power flow "to device POS and returns on device NEG". Are you referencing Conventional Current flow or Electron current flow.

High school and Navy/military schools taught "conventional" to thousands, maybe millions.  I was one of them.  I later learned from college snobs that this was "hole theory" rather than actual electron flow.  Doesn't effect much in the way of electrical equations, or the way things need to be connected in order to function.  Chemistry, yes.  But, the integrity of the current loop must be intact using either theory.

Perhaps I came along a little later. My High School instruction on this topic included some electrical history. Including the "convention" formed and adopted by the electrical inventors, scientists, and like of that time indicating "conventional current" flowed + to -.  This was later proved incorrect soon there after but was retained to eliminate confusion (egos) at that time. My teacher was a retired International Harvester man. Who often queried to us "why do you think IH products are all Negative start". The old ammeter used on older vehicles can attest to the actual electron flow - to +.  And yes in simple circuits the math is the same, the same consensuses were reached not to correct the original "convention".

Later on in formal instruction, withstanding the "snobs" did I learn of Hole Current. Even with my limited exposure to Hole current back then, it wasnt referred to as a theory. While hole current flow may still be debated, one rarely reads one on electron flow.

I snapped a screenshot of some current Honda OEM cbr500 rear turn signal lights

And what is the relevance of a "parts breakers" picture?  It shows no connection or attachment method to frame, or pathway beck to battery terminals.

Many signals are rubber vibration isolated.  This of course breaks the electrical path, requiring an augmentation to make it complete.  For example, the CB550 grab bar connects directly to frame and the turn signal attaches to it.  The signal socket galvanically attaches to an added bracket that surrounds the rubber, separating the path to the grab rail.  The turn signal Green attaches to the bracket and then routes to bike harness green.  Why do you suppose they added an extra bracket and wire for green path when the frame was so conveniently accessible?  Answer: to avoid sending currents to/through frame or joints to the frame.  Same is true for front turn sigs on models I have examined.  I can't speak for all motorcycles or cars I haven't examined.  But, I think I understand the pitfalls and benefits of electrical attachment methods.  Galvanic corrosion is a real thing.  There are many references and explanations on the interwebs.

Cheers,

That picture as is the one of the points should be self explanatory and testament to Spanner's and Scottly's post.  My signal lights are wired the same as yours on my F1/2/3 also. And As pictured in the modern photo, they must rely on galvanic current (dc) flow through the bulb's base, socket, and bracket, all of which may be dissimilar metals. Which would still be exposed to your galvanic corrosion concerns regardless of the wire Honda provided. The point plate picture references the above posts indicating manufacturers have incorporated frame, engine, chassis, grounding circuits utilizing similar and dissimilar materials in their primary designs for some time and still do.

[maxheadflow]

One thing to note, Galvanic current and Galvanic corrosion are not related.  For me, as a retired EE, we pretty much always used conventional current flow.   The only reason to use electron, was to confuse young college students with a sign reversal.   Later on it got discussed in semiconductors classes mainly due to the doping substance.   

It's good to understand electron flow when tig /mig welding.

As far as using ground wires, they are there to ensure good grounds on rubber mounted devices. Parts rattle loose, ground is still good.  Removing paint means a spot that can get wet and rust.

[Tracksnblades1]

One thing to note, Galvanic current and Galvanic corrosion are not related.  For me, as a retired EE,

It's good to understand electron flow when tig /mig welding.

Understandably.

Perhaps, then you can explain what type of current is present and measurable during galvanic corrosion....?

[maxheadflow]

One thing to note, Galvanic current and Galvanic corrosion are not related.  For me, as a retired EE,

It's good to understand electron flow when tig /mig welding.

Perhaps, then you can explain what type of current is present and measurable during galvanic corrosion....?

Sure. In order to have galvanic corrosion you need 2 dissimilar metals and a electrolyte (could be water) . 

https://www.pemnet.com/design_info/galvanic-corrosion/

The contact between the 2 metals does not create the corrosion but completes the circuit. 

You have say

Metal 1  <---
   V            |
Water         |
  V             |
Metal 2 -----

[Tracksnblades1]

One thing to note, Galvanic current and Galvanic corrosion are not related.  For me, as a retired EE,

It's good to understand electron flow when tig /mig welding.

Perhaps, then you can explain what type of current is present and measurable during galvanic corrosion....?

Sure. In order to have galvanic corrosion you need 2 dissimilar metals and a electrolyte (could be water) . 

https://www.pemnet.com/design_info/galvanic-corrosion/

The contact between the 2 metals does not create the corrosion but completes the circuit. 

You have say

Metal 1  <---
   V            |
Water         |
  V             |
Metal 2 -----

😃

I understand the 3 basic elements as well as the "galvanic (dc) current" present and measurable during the process.