Author Topic: Another CB550 Not Charging Thread  (Read 7243 times)

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Offline Spanner 1

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Re: Another CB550 Not Charging Thread
« Reply #50 on: August 30, 2019, 07:45:22 PM »
Scottly +1. I've been saying this too. The green on your aftermarket reg/rect, is not ' a ground', rather a wire that needs to go to ground. Same as the green from the field coil, it is not a ground but a wire that must be grounded. Plugging these green wires together does nothing and the rect/reg will not work as neither green are actually grounded to frame. The solid state r/r must have a ground reference to work ;)

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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Another CB550 Not Charging Thread
« Reply #51 on: August 31, 2019, 08:47:35 AM »
"Ground" does not *HAVE* to be the frame.  (Although it is good to have it at that potential.)  In fact, you do NOT want currents to routinely pass through the frame, as that can advance corrosion. Obviously it is not a real ground, or earth connection as the tires insulate the bike from actual earth ground.

What you MUST have is a viable pathway from each electrical device to battery NEG.  Honda provided that with the green routing wires in the harness, as that is proper electrical practice for longevity.

"Ground" on these bikes is actually a common reference potential well tied/connected to battery NEG.  Power flows in a loop to device POS and returns on Device NEG.  The device fails to operate correctly when either of these pathways are compromised.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline Spanner 1

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Re: Another CB550 Not Charging Thread
« Reply #52 on: September 03, 2019, 09:58:51 PM »
TT and another superfluous epilogue when he did not figure out the solution to the problem. Every 2 and 4 wheel vehicle on the planet uses frame ground as a conductor. Get over it .  :D
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Another CB550 Not Charging Thread
« Reply #53 on: September 04, 2019, 08:39:45 AM »
TT and another superfluous epilogue when he did not figure out the solution to the problem. Every 2 and 4 wheel vehicle on the planet uses frame ground as a conductor. Get over it .  :D

That's incorrect.  They use frame ground as a reference, not a routine conductor in good designs.  (apart from momentary starter motor currents) At least, if they want to avoid galvanic corrosion.

Get some education.  :D
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Offline scottly

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Re: Another CB550 Not Charging Thread
« Reply #54 on: September 04, 2019, 11:05:47 PM »
TT and another superfluous epilogue when he did not figure out the solution to the problem. Every 2 and 4 wheel vehicle on the planet uses frame ground as a conductor. Get over it .  :D

That's incorrect.  They use frame ground as a reference, not a routine conductor in good designs.  (apart from momentary starter motor currents) At least, if they want to avoid galvanic corrosion.

Get some education.  :D
??? The stock Honda harness common green wire is "grounded" to the steel frame, either at the coil mount under the gas tank, or near the battery, depending on year and model. The battery negative terminal is also "grounded" to the steel frame at a different location, and this heavy gauge cable carries not only the momentary starter currents but also the "routine" currents. Are you saying Honda did it wrong, Lloyd? ;)
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Offline Tracksnblades1

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Re: Another CB550 Not Charging Thread
« Reply #55 on: September 05, 2019, 07:02:24 AM »
"Ground" does not *HAVE* to be the frame.  (Although it is good to have it at that potential.)  In fact, you do NOT want currents to routinely pass through the frame, as that can advance corrosion. Obviously it is not a real ground, or earth connection as the tires insulate the bike from actual earth ground.

What you MUST have is a viable pathway from each electrical device to battery NEG.  Honda provided that with the green routing wires in the harness, as that is proper electrical practice for longevity.

"Ground" on these bikes is actually a common reference potential well tied/connected to battery NEG.  Power flows in a loop to device POS and returns on Device NEG.  The device fails to operate correctly when either of these pathways are compromised.

Cheers,

This power flow "to device POS and returns on device NEG". Are you referencing Conventional Current flow or Electron current flow.

Understandably, power relates to current delivery measured in watts.

I snapped a screenshot of some current Honda OEM cbr500 rear turn signal lights
« Last Edit: September 05, 2019, 07:30:11 AM by Tracksnblades1 »
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Another CB550 Not Charging Thread
« Reply #56 on: September 05, 2019, 07:50:17 AM »

 ??? The stock Honda harness common green wire is "grounded" to the steel frame, either at the coil mount under the gas tank, or near the battery, depending on year and model. The battery negative terminal is also "grounded" to the steel frame at a different location, and this heavy gauge cable carries not only the momentary starter currents but also the "routine" currents. Are you saying Honda did it wrong, Lloyd? ;)

Last I looked, Honda choose a pretty direct path with no welds for the primary current path.  It's a "considered path".  There are some that then assume anywhere on the frame is equivalent.  It is not.  Welds with gaps or dissimilar metals, are prone to galvanic corrosion with currents passing through them.  I wouldn't assume all the welds on a production Honda frame are perfect.

But, who cares if one only expects a couple year life out of the machine, or until it is sold for profit?

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline Don R

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Re: Another CB550 Not Charging Thread
« Reply #57 on: September 05, 2019, 08:08:09 AM »
 I'm one of those guys that use the frame as a mount for the wires that loop back to the battery. I put the ground cable between the frame and engine when I can. On the race cars I've worked on, they ground the heads to the mag and chassis so a spark doesn't jump to the piston.
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Another CB550 Not Charging Thread
« Reply #58 on: September 05, 2019, 08:27:35 AM »

This power flow "to device POS and returns on device NEG". Are you referencing Conventional Current flow or Electron current flow.

High school and Navy/military schools taught "conventional" to thousands, maybe millions.  I was one of them.  I later learned from college snobs that this was "hole theory" rather than actual electron flow.  Doesn't effect much in the way of electrical equations, or the way things need to be connected in order to function.  Chemistry, yes.  But, the integrity of the current loop must be intact using either theory.



I snapped a screenshot of some current Honda OEM cbr500 rear turn signal lights

And what is the relevance of a "parts breakers" picture?  It shows no connection or attachment method to frame, or pathway beck to battery terminals.

Many signals are rubber vibration isolated.  This of course breaks the electrical path, requiring an augmentation to make it complete.  For example, the CB550 grab bar connects directly to frame and the turn signal attaches to it.  The signal socket galvanically attaches to an added bracket that surrounds the rubber, separating the path to the grab rail.  The turn signal Green attaches to the bracket and then routes to bike harness green.  Why do you suppose they added an extra bracket and wire for green path when the frame was so conveniently accessible?  Answer: to avoid sending currents to/through frame or joints to the frame.  Same is true for front turn sigs on models I have examined.  I can't speak for all motorcycles or cars I haven't examined.  But, I think I understand the pitfalls and benefits of electrical attachment methods.  Galvanic corrosion is a real thing.  There are many references and explanations on the interwebs.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline Tracksnblades1

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Re: Another CB550 Not Charging Thread
« Reply #59 on: September 05, 2019, 08:34:22 AM »
I'm one of those guys that use the frame as a mount for the wires that loop back to the battery. I put the ground cable between the frame and engine when I can. On the race cars I've worked on, they ground the heads to the mag and chassis so a spark doesn't jump to the piston.

Yep, everything is on a diet there.

Those magnetos and their ac sparks can wake a guy up....😳

We always used ground jumpers to engines, fire walls and the like incorporating rubber mounts.

Chevrolet, Ford, Chrysler, used little braided wire cables  going from engine to fire wall back in the old days. I unhooked the ones on my 327's valve covers just to see what they did. It wasn't readily apparent but it showed it's nasty head at anything over 4500 rpm.  But that was back in them Old point days.

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« Last Edit: September 05, 2019, 08:55:28 AM by Tracksnblades1 »
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Re: Another CB550 Not Charging Thread
« Reply #60 on: September 05, 2019, 10:55:15 AM »
Things like instrument senders on the motor can route ground through a dash instrument on a car. Forgot to reattach ground strap on a 66 Volvo 122S I had the motor out of for rebuild and it overheated the temp gauge terminals until I found it and corrected it. Fortunately I did not have to replace the gauge.

David
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Offline scottly

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Re: Another CB550 Not Charging Thread
« Reply #61 on: September 05, 2019, 08:19:06 PM »

Last I looked, Honda choose a pretty direct path with no welds for the primary current path.
Cheers,
Last time I looked at a K7 750, there were several welds between the green wire frame ground point and the battery negative frame ground point. ;D
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Offline Spanner 1

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Re: Another CB550 Not Charging Thread
« Reply #62 on: September 05, 2019, 09:54:45 PM »
In the ten years I've been  on this forum I've never seen TT admit he's wrong or didn't know the answer. Never.
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Another CB550 Not Charging Thread
« Reply #63 on: September 06, 2019, 08:04:45 AM »
In the ten years I've been  on this forum I've never seen TT admit he's wrong or didn't know the answer. Never.

As usual, you haven't been paying attention.  Not that you will admit to that...
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline Tracksnblades1

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Re: Another CB550 Not Charging Thread
« Reply #64 on: September 08, 2019, 03:15:36 PM »

This power flow "to device POS and returns on device NEG". Are you referencing Conventional Current flow or Electron current flow.

High school and Navy/military schools taught "conventional" to thousands, maybe millions.  I was one of them.  I later learned from college snobs that this was "hole theory" rather than actual electron flow.  Doesn't effect much in the way of electrical equations, or the way things need to be connected in order to function.  Chemistry, yes.  But, the integrity of the current loop must be intact using either theory.

Perhaps I came along a little later. My High School instruction on this topic included some electrical history. Including the "convention" formed and adopted by the electrical inventors, scientists, and like of that time indicating "conventional current" flowed + to -.  This was later proved incorrect soon there after but was retained to eliminate confusion (egos) at that time. My teacher was a retired International Harvester man. Who often queried to us "why do you think IH products are all Negative start". The old ammeter used on older vehicles can attest to the actual electron flow - to +.  And yes in simple circuits the math is the same, the same consensuses were reached not to correct the original "convention".

Later on in formal instruction, withstanding the "snobs" did I learn of Hole Current. Even with my limited exposure to Hole current back then, it wasnt referred to as a theory. While hole current flow may still be debated, one rarely reads one on electron flow.


I snapped a screenshot of some current Honda OEM cbr500 rear turn signal lights

And what is the relevance of a "parts breakers" picture?  It shows no connection or attachment method to frame, or pathway beck to battery terminals.

Many signals are rubber vibration isolated.  This of course breaks the electrical path, requiring an augmentation to make it complete.  For example, the CB550 grab bar connects directly to frame and the turn signal attaches to it.  The signal socket galvanically attaches to an added bracket that surrounds the rubber, separating the path to the grab rail.  The turn signal Green attaches to the bracket and then routes to bike harness green.  Why do you suppose they added an extra bracket and wire for green path when the frame was so conveniently accessible?  Answer: to avoid sending currents to/through frame or joints to the frame.  Same is true for front turn sigs on models I have examined.  I can't speak for all motorcycles or cars I haven't examined.  But, I think I understand the pitfalls and benefits of electrical attachment methods.  Galvanic corrosion is a real thing.  There are many references and explanations on the interwebs.

Cheers,


That picture as is the one of the points should be self explanatory and testament to Spanner's and Scottly's post.  My signal lights are wired the same as yours on my F1/2/3 also. And As pictured in the modern photo, they must rely on galvanic current (dc) flow through the bulb's base, socket, and bracket, all of which may be dissimilar metals. Which would still be exposed to your galvanic corrosion concerns regardless of the wire Honda provided. The point plate picture references the above posts indicating manufacturers have incorporated frame, engine, chassis, grounding circuits utilizing similar and dissimilar materials in their primary designs for some time and still do.

« Last Edit: September 08, 2019, 10:41:01 PM by Tracksnblades1 »
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Offline maxheadflow

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Re: Another CB550 Not Charging Thread
« Reply #65 on: September 11, 2019, 08:05:04 AM »
One thing to note, Galvanic current and Galvanic corrosion are not related.  For me, as a retired EE, we pretty much always used conventional current flow.   The only reason to use electron, was to confuse young college students with a sign reversal.   Later on it got discussed in semiconductors classes mainly due to the doping substance.   

It's good to understand electron flow when tig /mig welding.

As far as using ground wires, they are there to ensure good grounds on rubber mounted devices. Parts rattle loose, ground is still good.  Removing paint means a spot that can get wet and rust.

Offline Tracksnblades1

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Re: Another CB550 Not Charging Thread
« Reply #66 on: September 12, 2019, 03:57:55 PM »
One thing to note, Galvanic current and Galvanic corrosion are not related.  For me, as a retired EE,

It's good to understand electron flow when tig /mig welding.


Understandably.

Perhaps, then you can explain what type of current is present and measurable during galvanic corrosion....?
« Last Edit: September 12, 2019, 04:22:42 PM by Tracksnblades1 »
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Offline maxheadflow

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Re: Another CB550 Not Charging Thread
« Reply #67 on: September 12, 2019, 04:24:53 PM »
One thing to note, Galvanic current and Galvanic corrosion are not related.  For me, as a retired EE,

It's good to understand electron flow when tig /mig welding.


Perhaps, then you can explain what type of current is present and measurable during galvanic corrosion....?

Sure. In order to have galvanic corrosion you need 2 dissimilar metals and a electrolyte (could be water) . 

https://www.pemnet.com/design_info/galvanic-corrosion/

The contact between the 2 metals does not create the corrosion but completes the circuit. 

You have say

Metal 1  <---
   V            |
Water         |
  V             |
Metal 2 -----


Offline Tracksnblades1

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Re: Another CB550 Not Charging Thread
« Reply #68 on: September 12, 2019, 04:35:55 PM »
One thing to note, Galvanic current and Galvanic corrosion are not related.  For me, as a retired EE,

It's good to understand electron flow when tig /mig welding.


Perhaps, then you can explain what type of current is present and measurable during galvanic corrosion....?

Sure. In order to have galvanic corrosion you need 2 dissimilar metals and a electrolyte (could be water) . 

https://www.pemnet.com/design_info/galvanic-corrosion/

The contact between the 2 metals does not create the corrosion but completes the circuit. 

You have say

Metal 1  <---
   V            |
Water         |
  V             |
Metal 2 -----

😃

I understand the 3 basic elements as well as the "galvanic (dc) current" present and measurable during the process.
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Offline maxheadflow

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Re: Another CB550 Not Charging Thread
« Reply #69 on: September 12, 2019, 08:19:47 PM »
One thing to note, Galvanic current and Galvanic corrosion are not related.  For me, as a retired EE,

It's good to understand electron flow when tig /mig welding.


Perhaps, then you can explain what type of current is present and measurable during galvanic corrosion....?

Sure. In order to have galvanic corrosion you need 2 dissimilar metals and a electrolyte (could be water) . 

https://www.pemnet.com/design_info/galvanic-corrosion/

The contact between the 2 metals does not create the corrosion but completes the circuit. 

You have say

Metal 1  <---
   V            |
Water         |
  V             |
Metal 2 -----

😃

I understand the 3 basic elements as well as the "galvanic (dc) current" present and measurable during the process.

OK, So I'm not sure what this has to do with ground wires?

Offline Tracksnblades1

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Re: Another CB550 Not Charging Thread
« Reply #70 on: September 13, 2019, 03:34:54 AM »
One thing to note, Galvanic current and Galvanic corrosion are not related.  For me, as a retired EE,

It's good to understand electron flow when tig /mig welding.


Perhaps, then you can explain what type of current is present and measurable during galvanic corrosion....?

Sure. In order to have galvanic corrosion you need 2 dissimilar metals and a electrolyte (could be water) . 

https://www.pemnet.com/design_info/galvanic-corrosion/

The contact between the 2 metals does not create the corrosion but completes the circuit. 

You have say

Metal 1  <---
   V            |
Water         |
  V             |
Metal 2 -----

😃

I understand the 3 basic elements as well as the "galvanic (dc) current" present and measurable during the process.

OK, So I'm not sure what this has to do with ground wires?

I'm not sure I can help you if your having trouble following along. Perhaps a sensible review of the earlier posts may bring clarity to your last query.
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Offline maxheadflow

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Re: Another CB550 Not Charging Thread
« Reply #71 on: September 13, 2019, 07:20:37 AM »
Quote
That picture as is the one of the points should be self explanatory and testament to Spanner's and Scottly's post.  My signal lights are wired the same as yours on my F1/2/3 also. And As pictured in the modern photo, they must rely on galvanic current (dc) flow through the bulb's base, socket, and bracket, all of which may be dissimilar metals. Which would still be exposed to your galvanic corrosion concerns regardless of the wire Honda provided. The point plate picture references the above posts indicating manufacturers have incorporated frame, engine, chassis, grounding circuits utilizing similar and dissimilar materials in their primary designs for some time and still do.

I'm basically agreeing with this here. Galvanic current is basically any DC current may not be not related to Galvanic corrosion.

Added in the clarification as galvanic corrosion likely does have a very small current flowing as part of the reaction.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2019, 07:25:47 AM by maxheadflow »