Author Topic: '73CB500  (Read 7187 times)

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Offline rusty2078

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'73CB500
« on: August 23, 2019, 08:03:00 AM »
Hi all, looking for the collective wisdom of the tribe as I start what is most likely to be a protracted, convoluted and needlessly expensive project. Recently picked up a seemingly low-mileage '73 500, thats a total rebuild...end goal is to have a rebuilt daily rider/commuter bike that is still chrome/steel/alloy and has a kicker.
Pros: odometer shows around 9700 miles, which could be correct as up here (Edmonton, Alberta), its a short riding season and some aspects of this bike show signs of limited use: then engine has non-matching S/N with the frame, and looks to have never been opened up (fasteners are not rounded/deformed, esp the Phiilips head machine screws). The engine turns over, however I don't have a specific adaptor for my compression gauge to give an accurate reading. The only signs of oil seeping right now are between the head and cylinder block. Alloy covers are in great shape/not marked up.
The frame is unmolested, shows signs of a bit of wear, a few areas of surface rust, but nothing that can't be easily cleaned up. lower frame rails are solid, which supports the PO's history of the bike being stored indoors. The tank has a couple of dents, and the PO cleaned it up inside, POR lined it and it seems to hold liquids. Obviously repainted rather poorly at some point, and looks to be originally gold. Side covers cracked up.
Wiring harness looks to be in V/G unmolested shape as well, still has original signals/switch gear...no electrical tape/suspect splicing noted.
The fenders/rims are in V/G condition, slight pitting, but require re-chroming. Exhaust is pretty much shot...no surprises here. Seat pan in good shape.
All in all, a very solid bike to start off with....my abilities/knowledge: good knowledge/mechanical aptitude and tool assortment (not my first rebuilder).

My question for the group: I've been reading about this engine design, and how the gearbox can be problematic. My basic assumption is that other than some design issues, it's also affected by riding style of PO's and maintenance quality. While this is going to open up a variety of responses...given that I'm planning on a total teardown/inspection/rebuild, is it smarter to go with a later 550 engine and have a better gearbox? Are there "fixes" (have read about hard welding shifter forks/refacing??) that address some of the documented issues? I'd like to think of myself as a "mature rider" thats not going to be abusing the bike/pushing it beyond its capacity....

My basic plan/vision is to keep the engine (500 or possibly an acquired 550) pretty much stock, just a good/proper rebuild....upgrade the suspension with progressive fork springs/Gold Valve emulators, or possibly go the R6 conventional route (in a balance of better performance with a "correct" look...better rear shocks....bring electrical into the modern age.....all while trying to stay with a "reasonable budget" (this is probably going to elicit howls of laughter...)

Thanks all, well in advance!

Offline calj737

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Re: '73CB500
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2019, 08:16:15 AM »
The 500 engine gearbox is just fine if properly maintained, and you inspect it for any wear. No real need to upgrade to a 550.

If did undertake that change, the 550 clutch enters the cases on the right via a different upper right rear bracket. The 500 clutch cable comes in from the left side case. Components of the 500 clutch/case that can be problematic are the cam (left side cover), the pushrod that traverses the engine left-to-right. Inspect these carefully.
'74 550 Build http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=126401.0
'73 500 Build http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132935.0

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline rusty2078

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Re: '73CB500
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2019, 09:08:54 AM »
Hi Calj, thanks for the information...I've been searching through archived threads and finding a few bits and pieces here and there...nice to have a concise reply with the "clutch/gearbox necessities"...close inspection will most likely dictate how I go about this, but everything looks positive thus far, in terms of going with the 500 engine.

Offline Scott S

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Re: '73CB500
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2019, 05:49:19 PM »
 The 500 is a smooth running engine. The 550 is stronger, but if you have a healthy 500, run it.
'71 CB500 K0
'17 Triumph Street Scrambler
'81 Yamaha XS650

Offline rusty2078

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Re: '73CB500
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2019, 07:39:18 PM »
It's probably more of a case of chasing project squirrels right now...looking at different ideas, all which have merit (ie...650 swap??), but probably not necessary to have a great bike in the end....trying very hard to stay on budget...

Offline rb550four

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Re: '73CB500
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2019, 08:05:12 PM »
     9700 mile sounds good. I have had a few that only had 7000+ on them but were locked up due to poor storage conditions and required rebuild. None of these transmissions showed any damage and have been working well without worry. Have you had a conversation with the PO that would lead you to believe that he has damaged the transmission? A  constant false neutral going int 3rd gear? clutch issues? The rod that runs through the clutch isn't  problematic as a rule but there has been a few on this forum that have found this rod to be broken( cracked and broken into 2 pieces) I have only found this once , and that was on a 500 that had been seriously beat. You can pull it out , inspect it and slide it back in without disturbing anything, one end is rounded, so if you have 2 cut ends it's broken and needs to be replaced. The other thing that is common , especially on beat machines is where the clutch cable goes into the case , the lever itself can be found to be cracked or damaged or most of the time if I find trouble with the clutch, it is that somebody dropped the ball bearing when reinstalling the case. That whole movement should be cleaned , inspected and greased, it probably still has the factory grease in it from the early 70's  that needs freshening. Since it turns over, it would be worth cleaning the carbs and getting a fresh battery, oil and filter,plugs and clean up the points. to get it it running and try out the transmission out just so you know that you're not chasing a ghost that doesn't exist. There shouldn't be much wear in a low mileage transmission, although the forks can be stuck from sitting for years and years in very poor or outdoor storage situations, you will know immediately when you shift it on the centerstand and nothing happens. If you can turn the rear wheel and get through the gears ...that isn't a problem
  So I'm thinking that you are only looking at a top end rebuild just to change the O rings. The top end will need to be broken down to change the oil port O rings  between the head and the jugs. That can be done after you get it running and try the transmission out if it is bleeding out heavily. Then you should have an idea of what you really have there.... it may just be an ugly paint job and Orings. Of course you can take the whole thing apart, split the cases and put it back together if you are worried about gaskets and seals in the lower end , we all love to see pictures of that stuff whether you need to do it or just want to do it, your choice , we like it either way. Especially if you're on a budget, the exhaust is $350 or more just for that alone, 100 + for gaskets , another !00+ for lower end seals, under 75 for clutch if in good shape, neck beaings shouldn't be worn yet but you may want all balls instead of a simple regrease...whatever , depending on your budget ,it can add up fast.paint alone will set you back 150 for basecoat /clear coat on the low endand a decent seatcover starts around $50, ,then there's brake mc rebuild kit,pads shoes and tires ,really adds up quick. Pop another buck and a half on for electronic ignition instead of points,new coils instead of stock coils, ...it goes on and on, be careful.  What are your plans for this machine, it looks like you could bring it back easily.
   
A few Honda 500's, a few Honda 550's, a few Honda 650's, '72 cb 450, a couple 500/550/650 hybrids, and 2001 750. 
  550 Snowbike -Somebody had to do it.
  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,101678.0.html             
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,137317.msg1550907.html#msg1550907

Offline rusty2078

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Re: '73CB500
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2019, 11:52:00 AM »
Hi RB, I was actually reading through an older thread of yours last night ("That have followed me home"), and enjoying it immensely. The CB 500 clutch assembly sounds similar to the venerable (GASP...) XS650 (owned and rebuilt a couple of those). The young gent that I bought this one off of had purchased it from a friend that had it stored indoors (judging by the overall condition, this seems to be an accurate assessment). PO bought it as a non-running project bike, and never had it running....so unable to comment on the state of the gearbox. My initial thoughts were entered around several build threads here, discussing issues with the gearbox, design, etc...thus far I've only had it on the centerstand and gone through gear changes in this manner....it seems to cycle through well enough for a non-running, early 70's bike. No reason for me to jump to conclusions that there is any serious issue with it.
My goal is to have a well-sorted bike with a few concessions to modernity...as form follows function, my order of importance (and spending, hopefully) is to start with an engine teardown and inspection. My rationale for a total disassembly and inspection stems from the unknown, and the relative easy of disassembly/reassembly of the SOHC. Coupled with an engine that hasn't been run in years and was most likely never prepped/oiled/fogged for storage, this seems like the most practical approach to start with.
Suspension and the electrical system are where I'm looking to improve upon the original design parameters, while maintaining the classic good looks of the 500. Considering/researching a few different options for the front forks: rebuild originals with progressive springs and emulators or possibly go with a newer conventional style fork that has adjustable compression and damping. Newer fork = more $$$ to swap correctly, and will most likely entail either machining ($$ as I'm not a machinist, not do I possess the equipment), or buying a specially built hub (CognitoMoto, also $$). The stock fork lowers are in great shape, brake assembly is all there, and original fender assembly is suitable for some mild dent removal and re-chroming...the sliders need to be replaced as the uppers are peeling/rusted. Less $$ to rebuild the originals, better adjustability/performance from a new-is design...Undecided on this point.
Electrical: upgrade to modern electronic delivery system for ignition and distribution...I'm comfortable with breaker point ignitions, but happier with electronic/Hall effect design. Committed to spending some $$ in this department, as this will be my daily ride.
Aesthetic: Period correct look, nothing crazy. Tank has a couple of dents, but nothing that can't be worked out/filled. PO did a POR tank liner, and it seems to hold liquids. No major rust issues of a structural integrity nature. Just want a well sorted, nice looking standard CB.

Thanks for your time and expertise...pictures and posts will slowly trickle in...like everyone else, bike projects get the last bit of my available time!

Offline rb550four

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Re: '73CB500
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2019, 02:52:21 PM »
No cafe?!!! .................thank you.
orig. forks, easy and cheap to rebuild and will get you on the road faster plus it gives you time to hunt down a more modern pair later , at your convenience.  Yes , the rear suspension could use improvement without a doubt.
  The unknown engine , I always tear them down if unknown , especially if there has been a second PO in the mix that didn't manage to get it running. So I'm already a fan. It's nice that it turns free, always an added bonus,  but it is wise to see why it is free. Meaning was it stuck before,did the PO put a mix down the cylinders and drag it behind a truck til it turned over or something like that . If that's the case it's always nice to get the nasty stuff out of the rings and make sure they are free to do the job.And it's a good time to check for cylinder scoring or old rust eating at the cylinder walls ,if the rings were ever rusted into the cylinder walls you'll know when you look down the barrels.
  solid state ignition, I'm a fan for easy installation, not a fan when they quit on the side of the road, no fix for that...can only hope you're close to home.Points on the other hand will give you warning and you can probably fudge it to get you back home.
 New gaskets , Orings , pucks and lower seals are always a good idea to change out of and older machine while it's apart so it won't become an issue later on for sure.
   I have also found that an engine that has sat for a long time, the valves may be sticky, usually needs penetrating oil to loosen them up instead of replacement unless the were stuck on the last PO and he bent them while freeing up the engine.
  A good check on every part is certainly the thing to do and it's fun. Sounds like a solid plan to me  Looking forward to pics.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2019, 02:55:05 PM by rb550four »
A few Honda 500's, a few Honda 550's, a few Honda 650's, '72 cb 450, a couple 500/550/650 hybrids, and 2001 750. 
  550 Snowbike -Somebody had to do it.
  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,101678.0.html             
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,137317.msg1550907.html#msg1550907

Offline rusty2078

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Re: '73CB500
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2019, 08:15:20 PM »
There are a lot of amazing builds here, cafe and otherwise....tons of talent, and it's great to see a lot of like minded individuals that challenge themselves to learn, and a talented group of lifelong gear heads to provide expertise and guidance! My neck, shoulders, back and wrists would protest loudly if I tried to do clip-ons, full time....

Offline rb550four

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Re: '73CB500
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2019, 07:33:09 AM »
Agreed , the talent here is incredible, the end products are top knotch , the members are the best. There has been just so many cafe builds the last few years and so few stock builds.... what I meant to say was it would be refreshing.
A few Honda 500's, a few Honda 550's, a few Honda 650's, '72 cb 450, a couple 500/550/650 hybrids, and 2001 750. 
  550 Snowbike -Somebody had to do it.
  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,101678.0.html             
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,137317.msg1550907.html#msg1550907

Offline rusty2078

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Re: '73CB500
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2019, 11:29:33 AM »
I can't promise it'll be 100% stock, but close! Hopefully get out a bit this afternoon and continue with the disassembly....and a few pics...fortunately 1 of the members of the local Canadian Vintage Motorcycle Group (NORAL chapter) has started into vapour blasting, so the cases will most likely be headed there for some much needed rehab...

Offline rusty2078

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Re: '73CB500
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2019, 11:31:40 AM »
and a couple more, random engine pics...fasteners have no signs of deformity, all the cooling fins are present and un-bent, and no "screwdriver pry marks" on the cases...

Offline rusty2078

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Re: '73CB500
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2019, 11:32:38 AM »
random engine pics

Offline rusty2078

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Re: '73CB500
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2019, 11:33:38 AM »
another...

Offline calj737

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Re: '73CB500
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2019, 03:23:48 PM »
In case you are unaware, all the “screws” on your bike are JIS not Phillips. Get proper bits and the removal is a breeze without stripping the slots.
'74 550 Build http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=126401.0
'73 500 Build http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132935.0

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline Scott S

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Re: '73CB500
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2019, 04:13:41 PM »
 For the front end, search "R6 swap" here. A few of us have done it and you get more modern 43mm forks and keep the traditional look.
'71 CB500 K0
'17 Triumph Street Scrambler
'81 Yamaha XS650

Offline rusty2078

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Re: '73CB500
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2019, 04:24:03 PM »
CALJ...thanks for the reminder, need to dig around for my good old impact driver...its in the garage somewhere...
Scott...I've been looking at your thread, the FunJimmy thread and a few others for guidance on the swap...thinking that it might be a bit more expensive to go with the stock hub and machining, as I'd be paying a shop rate at around 120-130/hr here...simplest for me is paying up front for the Cognito hub/ebay parts for the forks...also thinking it might be a simpler solution to buy new rims instead of trying to get my stock ones re-chromed...to the best of my knowledge, the only shop that does chrome plating up here is about 3 hours away...and then the cost to strip, prep and re-plate is most likely going to add up to the cost of a nice set of Sun/Excel/Akronts.

Offline RAFster122s

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Re: '73CB500
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2019, 04:49:37 PM »
Be aware that if you go for a Cognito Moto hub you are locked into using a GSX-R rotors,
So...FunJimmy's solution can be a better route if you want to stick with a CBR600 disc.  The  R6 and FJ6  Fazer shared the non-USD fork design after the R6 went to the USD fork.  This opens up the possibility of using the quad piston caliper from the FZ06 as the mount points are identical between the twin piston caliper and the quad piston caliper.

If you buy the Cognito stem for the 550 you are looking at another $140 which I do not think you need as long as you order the correct All Balls Steering bearing kit. 
You will need someone to spin up a dust shield for the steering stem top and of course the hub machining and bearing/rotor spacers and axle spacers.
If you go with the 18 inch wider rim Jimmy did then you are likely to need some trimming of the inboard side of the caliper(s).

David
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline rusty2078

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Re: '73CB500
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2019, 06:33:11 PM »
Hi RAF, any advantage or disadvantage between the GSXR vs. CBR disc? From the couple of threads that I've been reading, I'm liking the idea of using the stock Yamaha stem, and saving a few $$ to offset the cost of other new stuff that may be more necessary to this rebuild....the quad piston caliper is quite interesting, planning on running a single disc setup and this would most likely be more than adequate for the engine (planning on a basic rebuild, nothing fancy for performance mods)...out of curiosity, which years of FZ quad caliper are compatible with the R6 fork?

Thus far, I'm liking the R6 fork route and starting to watch Ebay, to get an idea of cost....(we have a couple of decent bike wreckers up here, but it becomes a numbers game with a relatively small population base)...factoring in complete rebuild of forks, new springs, etc etc. Planning on getting the chassis figured out as the first part, then going after mechanical.

Thanks for your input!! Have most of the "stuff" stripped off now...

Offline RAFster122s

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Re: '73CB500
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2019, 11:14:18 PM »
Hi RAF, any advantage or disadvantage between the GSXR vs. CBR disc? From the couple of threads that I've been reading, I'm liking the idea of using the stock Yamaha stem, and saving a few $$ to offset the cost of other new stuff that may be more necessary to this rebuild....the quad piston caliper is quite interesting, planning on running a single disc setup and this would most likely be more than adequate for the engine (planning on a basic rebuild, nothing fancy for performance mods)...out of curiosity, which years of FZ quad caliper are compatible with the R6 fork?

Thus far, I'm liking the R6 fork route and starting to watch Ebay, to get an idea of cost....(we have a couple of decent bike wreckers up here, but it becomes a numbers game with a relatively small population base)...factoring in complete rebuild of forks, new springs, etc etc. Planning on getting the chassis figured out as the first part, then going after mechanical.

Thanks for your input!! Have most of the "stuff" stripped off now...


If you are buying a new EBC rotor for the bike you will spend $220-240 a disc for either the gsxr 750 or a cbr600 f4i... Used route the oem rotors vary from $55-75 for what is reported as a straight/true rotor within wear limits by eBay sellers who have replaced or upgraded their rotors.


I will need to look it up on the four pot caliper info, but yes, Yamaha started using the previous non-usd fork design from the R6 on the FZ6 and when they went to the twin opposed four pot caliper on the fz06 it bolted to the fork with no mods to mounting or offsets or rotor diameter. The twin slider caliper design works very well also and is likely a little lighter I am guessing. Either give you modern braking performance on the bike that can easily exceed tire grip and provide near (if not providing) modern bike braking distances.


The cbr600 f4i disc had the correct offset to work with the calipers with the spacers/bearing carriers that FJ designed.


No clue if the gsxr rotors mate with the Yamaha r6/fz6 calipers but I cannot imagine CognitoMoto would sell the hub that way if it required something special that was not bolt on...

David- back in the desert SW!

Offline rusty2078

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Re: '73CB500
« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2019, 05:26:53 AM »
Thanks again RAF...I can do some research and cross reference parts numbers between R6/FZ, and see what pops up. In a surprising turn of events...well, not really surprising..just won an R6 front end last night on Ebay...triples/forks for $100 CDN...roughly around $75 USD (and a fraction of shipping cost)....need a total overhaul, but the triples/stanchions/sliders look to be in decent shape!

Offline RAFster122s

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Re: '73CB500
« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2019, 08:06:42 AM »
The FZ06 top triple tree uses handlebars instead of using clipons like the R6. One of the reasons I went with the FZ06 triples and forks.
Congrats on the front end.  May only require new seals and fluid to give you a nice front end, along with refinishing the lowers and triples.
David
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan

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Re: '73CB500
« Reply #22 on: August 26, 2019, 08:40:15 AM »
The FZ06 top triple tree uses handlebars instead of using clipons like the R6. One of the reasons I went with the FZ06 triples and forks.
Congrats on the front end.  May only require new seals and fluid to give you a nice front end, along with refinishing the lowers and triples.
David

David

By FZ06, were you referring to a Yamaha FZ6 (aka Fazer) or an FZ-07/09?
1975 CB550K1 "Blue" Stockish Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=135005.0)
1975 CB550F1 frame/CB650 engine hybrid "The Hot Mess" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,150220.0.html)
2008 Triumph Thruxton (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,190956.0.html)
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"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

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2005 RVT1000RR RC51-SP2 "El Diablo" - Sold
2016+ Triumph Thruxton 1200 R (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,170198.0.html) - Sold

Offline RAFster122s

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Re: '73CB500
« Reply #23 on: August 26, 2019, 08:47:23 AM »
FZ6 Fazer with R6 non-USD fork design.
Same spacing and drop on fit to forks from R6 with R6 lower triple.
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline cwchan

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Re: '73CB500
« Reply #24 on: August 26, 2019, 10:12:40 AM »
Hi RAF, any advantage or disadvantage between the GSXR vs. CBR disc? From the couple of threads that I've been reading, I'm liking the idea of using the stock Yamaha stem, and saving a few $$ to offset the cost of other new stuff that may be more necessary to this rebuild....the quad piston caliper is quite interesting, planning on running a single disc setup and this would most likely be more than adequate for the engine (planning on a basic rebuild, nothing fancy for performance mods)...out of curiosity, which years of FZ quad caliper are compatible with the R6 fork?

Thus far, I'm liking the R6 fork route and starting to watch Ebay, to get an idea of cost....(we have a couple of decent bike wreckers up here, but it becomes a numbers game with a relatively small population base)...factoring in complete rebuild of forks, new springs, etc etc. Planning on getting the chassis figured out as the first part, then going after mechanical.

Thanks for your input!! Have most of the "stuff" stripped off now...

My thoughts were sticking with the same manufacturer has advantages that many of the specs get propagated through the generations.  I used an 05 CBR600rr front end and the top and bottom steering stem bearing race IDs were the same size.  IIRC the steering stem was also the same length. 

I got a wheel/hub from RAD manufacturing and came with rim, stainless spokes, bearings, seals, spacers, trued for $500US.

I also live in Edmonton and if there are any parts you might need let me know.  I've been considering sending them to the salvage yard
« Last Edit: August 26, 2019, 10:16:02 AM by cwchan »