Author Topic: K7 750 - engine issues on wet road  (Read 4134 times)

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Offline Erny

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K7 750 - engine issues on wet road
« on: August 26, 2019, 07:00:02 AM »
On my last weekend trip it was first time I experienced my CB750 K7 exposed to water  - rain or just wet roads after rain.
In both cases, after riding on wet surface for some time (1-2mins) engine started to twitch and die if under ~3000 RPMs. Only way to keep riding was to keep him over 3000..
Once we were for some time back on dry road or after bike was left parked in dry area it was quickly working fine again.

So obviously linked to water ingress somewhere, but where?
I suspect electrical issue...

Bike setup:
- stock points with Hondaman ignition box (mounted on the back of battery box (between battery box and plastic "B" rear fender). Normaly box shall not be exposed to water like that at all ...
- coils stock, original
- plugs with 3000 miles (D8)
- plugs caps with 3000 miles (NGK)
rest of bike is stock (11k miles)

Was thinking to switch from Hondaman box to points only (to eliminate one eventual cause) but in #$%*ty weather (rain) I had no will to play with & was happy I can ride further

Did anybody experience such kind of issues? Or any recommendation what to check?

Note: we were on 2 bikes, 750K7 and 550K1 and only 750 had these issues...(550K1 is 100% stock)
CB750K K7 USA model (1977)
CB550K1 USA model (1975)

Offline bryanj

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Re: K7 750 - engine issues on wet road
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2019, 07:06:42 AM »
Water spray hitting the ht leads, caps and coils. Very common in UK
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Offline Bankerdanny

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Re: K7 750 - engine issues on wet road
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2019, 08:19:56 AM »
I used to have this problem with my 550. I would unscrew the plug ends, add some dielectric grease and then screw them back on. That should help keep water out of them. I would do the same at the connections for the power to the coils.
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Wobbly

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Re: K7 750 - engine issues on wet road
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2019, 08:23:52 AM »
It is a typical K7 problem. It has absolutely nothing to do with the ignition. It’s the carbs. The overflow tubes of the K7 carbs are also providing the ventilation. Reroute them so that no water from the wet road can enter them. This will cure your problem.

Offline 1976cb750f836

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Re: K7 750 - engine issues on wet road
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2019, 03:08:43 PM »
Old jeep trick, spray silicone All over plug wire ends, use vasoliene  on ends what they HOOK to plug! We even ran our plug wire through a piece of water hose, and filled the gap with clear silicone?  I just try to Don't ride in rain!!!
Serosly,  the spray silicone helps a Lot.
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Offline Airborne 82nd

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Re: K7 750 - engine issues on wet road
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2019, 04:09:17 PM »
I would not be so quick to rule out the electrical issue
 Bankerdanny &  bryanj both have brought up some good points. You can get a spray bottle with some water and start at the lowest places and work your way up to see if you can make it  twitch and die  :) start at the points cover and don't be shy wet the heck out of it. dielectric grease and pure silicone are both good. If you can locate the problem area look real close for cracks or split insulation and fix it proper no band aids. Even when new and clean I will pack a little dg inside the plug caps 

Offline scottly

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Re: K7 750 - engine issues on wet road
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2019, 08:53:42 PM »
It is a typical K7 problem. It has absolutely nothing to do with the ignition. It’s the carbs. The overflow tubes of the K7 carbs are also providing the ventilation. Reroute them so that no water from the wet road can enter them. This will cure your problem.
The vents are just that, vents. They equalize the pressure inside the float bowls with the outside pressure. They are not under vacuum, and it's doubtful enough water would migrate uphill into the bowls to effect the running. Also, the bike would not run properly until the water was drained from the bowls, if that were the case.  ;)
I had a similar experience one time, Erny. My bike sat all day outside in the rain while at work. It started fine, and ran fine for about 3 or 4 blocks, then started acting up when trying to pull away from a stop sign. I had to paddle to the side of the road to let traffic behind me pass. The motor would rev, but only in neutral; as soon as I tried to let the clutch out it would falter under any load. After sitting stationary for a few minutes with the motor running, it started to run OK, and I rode 7 or so miles back home with no issues. My theory is the problem was water thrown up on the plug wires and coils from the front tire (Dunstall needle fender was not as effective as stock ;D), and sitting with the motor running let the heat rising from the motor dry things out. 1+ for dielectric grease on the rubber boots on both ends of the plug caps.
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Offline Pielz

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Re: K7 750 - engine issues on wet road
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2019, 08:59:09 PM »
Could it be that moisture is getting down to the leads from the stator? I had some pretty gnarly corrosion there that was causing some weird charging issues. Eh, although now that I think about it I don't think that'd do what's happening to you. Yeah sounds like something between your coils and plugs.

Offline Bodi

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Re: K7 750 - engine issues on wet road
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2019, 09:58:18 PM »
Not too unusual, and in my experience it's caused by a spark jumping to ground and not a carb problem.
A soaked air filter will cause poor running but that's pretty rare, water can't get in the air filter case easily. Pods are open to rain and spray, some cause trouble when wet. K&N are pretty much immune, other brands not so good in rain.
Most likely is the plugs themselves, the insulator should be squeaky clean and the caps should have a tight rubber water seal. The coil ends should be checked as well: the cable insulation can crack right where they go in the coil, you can clean with alcohol and goop over with silicon to seal them. Sparking from cable to tank/frame/whatever shouldn't be exacerbated by moisture but who knows? I think all the fours came with rubber tubes over the actual cables for additional insulation, that's a good idea to add if yours are bare HT cable.
The caps screw into the cable, it's a good idea to check the cable end for decay. There  should enough length to trim 1/4" or so off the ends, smear the last 1/2" of the jacket with dielectric grease, then screw the cap back into the core. The cable end of the cap should have a rubber seal as well.
Dielectric grease on the plug cap seals makes them easier to push on, improves the water seal, and stops them from gumming to the cable or plug insulator.
Check your cap resistance. Too much (should be at the rated resistance +/- 10%) can aggravate arcing to metal problems, same for using resistor plugs with resistor caps.
Most of us avoid rain but it isn't so predictable. I have enough to worry about in rain - reduced visibility, obscured visor, reduced traction, slippery greasy roads, and unpredictable disc brakes - to want to deal with a misfiring engine as well.

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Re: K7 750 - engine issues on wet road
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2019, 12:17:22 PM »
No matter how other people reason, I gave the right answer. I don't have to guess nor reason, I know. Reroute the overflow tubes so that the rear wheel is no longer spraying them. This will cure you problem instantly. It's a common problem for the K7/F2. It does not matter if the Gods are responsible, the position of the stars, or the fact that closed ventilation causes the gasoline in the chamber to rise without letting the float rise to keep an even level.
I am out of here again. I only registered to help out, not to engage in meaningless discussions.

Offline Erny

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Re: K7 750 - engine issues on wet road
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2019, 01:40:04 PM »
Thanks all for the feddback and advice!

Wobbly - shall I understand it the way that every K7 has this problem, meaning stock routing of 4 overflow/drain hoses is wrong? Hard to believe that over 42 years Honda did not released at least service bulletin to fix it?
The point is that issue started really quickly after bike was riding on wet road (no rain, just water on the roead after the rain); hard to imagine if all K7 are like that everybody shall be affected, no?
CB750K K7 USA model (1977)
CB550K1 USA model (1975)

Offline PeWe

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Re: K7 750 - engine issues on wet road
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2019, 11:03:06 PM »
Wobbly, good point about the vent tubes. :)
My CB750 K2 with K6 stock carbs has them too and I'll check how they are routed, not pinched and if they really can breathe. This is a small detail easy to miss.

I have learnt that carbs and ignition can suddenly cause problems due to issues that recently were verified to be OK.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2019, 02:29:23 AM by PeWe »
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline Bailgang

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Re: K7 750 - engine issues on wet road
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2019, 02:29:09 AM »
My 77 F2 has issues in the rain as well but for mine it's ignition related ........ although the vent tubes are worth looking into. Mine has a boyer bransden electronic ignition and it absolutely, positively hates being ridden in the rain, it will drop at least 1 cyl and just plain run horrible. The reason I'm sure mine is ign related is because of the amount of rain water that came out of my spark plug resistor caps when I checked, albeit a very small amount of water, it was enough to make the boyer bransden system throw a fit. I don't know if dielectric grease around the boots of the caps have taken care of it because I avoid riding in the rain in the first place and haven't been caught in the rain in a while.
Scott


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Offline PeWe

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Re: K7 750 - engine issues on wet road
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2019, 05:26:21 AM »
No matter how other people reason, I gave the right answer. I don't have to guess nor reason, I know. Reroute the overflow tubes so that the rear wheel is no longer spraying them. This will cure you problem instantly. It's a common problem for the K7/F2. It does not matter if the Gods are responsible, the position of the stars, or the fact that closed ventilation causes the gasoline in the chamber to rise without letting the float rise to keep an even level.
I am out of here again. I only registered to help out, not to engage in meaningless discussions.
That's a BIG loss for the forum that you are out again Tom.
I have missed your knowledge and friendship.
Typical in many technical forums where people can't discuss and can't accept other angles of a problem vs resolution. All information about a specific issue is useful, if not today it will for sure help others in the future.

//Per
« Last Edit: August 31, 2019, 05:28:10 AM by PeWe »
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline Bodi

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Re: K7 750 - engine issues on wet road
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2019, 06:19:48 AM »
"No matter how other people reason, I gave the right answer. I don't have to guess nor reason, I know"
Must be nice to be perfect.
Good riddance, I for one won't miss this arrogant BS attitude.

Offline enwri

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Re: K7 750 - engine issues on wet road
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2019, 09:12:56 AM »
Try pulling the overflow hoses off while it's happening.. Upper body carb vents.  My 77 750 did exactly this until I cleared my upper body vents on the carbs.  Water droplets seal the ends of the overflows and mess up that carb. Found it by pulling the overflow tubes off, while riding in torrential rain. Cylinders began firing immediately as the tubes came off.
Same thing is why the 77 carbs can be difficult to clear tube test.
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Offline PeWe

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Re: K7 750 - engine issues on wet road
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2019, 11:02:28 AM »
This gave me one to do idea when back to my garage and my CB750 with K6 carbs. It has bubbled as a loud pop corn machine on low (no) lift since the very beginning this year after build completed, especially when warm, not the very first 5 minutes.

I'll check the vents. They might be blocked. I'm not sure if I verified the flow when assemble them after cleaning.
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline Tugboat

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Re: K7 750 - engine issues on wet road
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2019, 11:29:33 AM »
I have a similar issue with my F1 w/ K7 motor/carbs: feels like it's dropping a cylinder when wet. Dries out: runs just fine. I've replaced everything from the points plate to the plug caps and it still has this issue.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2019, 09:40:26 AM by Tugboat »
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Offline Erny

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Re: K7 750 - engine issues on wet road
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2019, 02:52:12 PM »
I have put dielectric vaseline (Dow Corning) onto HT leads/cups. Then went to wash bike and isssue was still there - after starting engine ran difficult in low rpms but after several seconds all was OK.

I can exlude carb vents - no way to put water inside carbs or block vent hoses.

It must be some other issue (coils? HT leads?)....
CB750K K7 USA model (1977)
CB550K1 USA model (1975)

Offline scottly

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Re: K7 750 - engine issues on wet road
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2019, 08:27:14 PM »
No matter how other people reason, I gave the right answer. I don't have to guess nor reason, I know. Reroute the overflow tubes so that the rear wheel is no longer spraying them. This will cure you problem instantly. It's a common problem for the K7/F2. It does not matter if the Gods are responsible, the position of the stars, or the fact that closed ventilation causes the gasoline in the chamber to rise without letting the float rise to keep an even level.
I am out of here again. I only registered to help out, not to engage in meaningless discussions.
That's a BIG loss for the forum that you are out again Tom.
I have missed your knowledge and friendship.
Typical in many technical forums where people can't discuss and can't accept other angles of a problem vs resolution. All information about a specific issue is useful, if not today it will for sure help others in the future.

//Per
Wobbly is the one who can't discuss or accept other angles of a problem. We never got the chance to discuss that ALL of the models have overflow tubes that are also the vents, Not just K7, nor the fact that my wet running problem happened with Weber carbs, which have no vent tubes at all. ;)
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
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Offline scottly

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Re: K7 750 - engine issues on wet road
« Reply #20 on: September 03, 2019, 08:42:43 PM »
I have put dielectric vaseline (Dow Corning) onto HT leads/cups. Then went to wash bike and isssue was still there - after starting engine ran difficult in low rpms but after several seconds all was OK.

I can exlude carb vents - no way to put water inside carbs or block vent hoses.

It must be some other issue (coils? HT leads?)....
Maybe take a spray bottle with water and spritz it in different places with the motor running? Might be better in the dark to see faint sparks?
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
Helmets save brains. Always wear one and ride like everyone is trying to kill you....

Offline jgger

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Re: K7 750 - engine issues on wet road
« Reply #21 on: September 03, 2019, 09:34:43 PM »
If you do the spray bottle trick, do it in the dark.
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Offline Deltarider

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Re: K7 750 - engine issues on wet road
« Reply #22 on: September 03, 2019, 11:20:59 PM »
The only time ever in 39 years my bike came to stop - apart from running out of gas and two flat tires - was in torrential rain wetting the HT leads and plugcaps. It was a known problem to CB500/550s owners and their #1 complaint in various riders reports. Honda has tried to solve this with various plugcaps and resistances. So, although yours is not a CB500/550, that would be suspect #1. However, the CB550K3 suffered from what Wobbly describes. Somehow watermist via the vent tubes got up there into the floatchambers and it takes a eenie tiny drop to disturb carburetion. Remedy was: just cut a few inches from the bottom end of those vent tubes. I believe the CB550K3 and the CB750K7 were on the market simultaneosly...
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Offline PeWe

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Re: K7 750 - engine issues on wet road
« Reply #23 on: September 04, 2019, 03:57:59 AM »
Some drops of water can really mess the carbs up!
My Mikuni TMR32 with pods should not be uncovered when washing the bike.
I have cleaned it twice with bike on side stand and got problems, water flows from tank into carb 4 pod. Start engine now not a good idea.

It runs really bad when twisting throttle as it is a drop of water blocking the emulsifier tube where the needle goes in.
It will not help with a 60km ride, spraying starter spray. I had to blow with compressed air where possible.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2019, 03:59:36 AM by PeWe »
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline Tugboat

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Re: K7 750 - engine issues on wet road
« Reply #24 on: September 12, 2019, 09:58:50 AM »
Any updates here?
If it's worth doing, it's worth doing twice.