Author Topic: Upgrading to Lithium battery. What do I need to know?  (Read 5267 times)

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Offline roach374

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Upgrading to Lithium battery. What do I need to know?
« on: November 12, 2019, 01:32:20 PM »
I'm riding a 1972 Honda CB500, with the original Reg / rec onboard, so probably about time to change it. Figured I would swap out the battery for a lithium battery as well. There's lots of confusing information out there about which reg / rec is suitable for Lithium.

Do I need something special?


Offline Deltarider

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Re: Upgrading to Lithium battery. What do I need to know?
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2019, 01:51:21 PM »
You need nothing because nothing is broken. Jeezzz... what's this madness here replacing parts that ain't broken by aftermarket stuff?! You guys have restless hands or what?
« Last Edit: November 12, 2019, 01:54:16 PM by Deltarider »
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Offline MauiK3

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Re: Upgrading to Lithium battery. What do I need to know?
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2019, 02:04:46 PM »
I have thought about this as well but just to gain a little space in the box. I have not done enough research to know if the charge rate and control is correct for the new technology.
If someone is concerned with weight loss, they do weigh a bit less, for what it’s worth.
Also, there are different types of lithium batteries.
Lots to learn.
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10/72 build Z1 Kawasaki

Online bryanj

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Re: Upgrading to Lithium battery. What do I need to know?
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2019, 03:33:43 PM »
Not worth the cost and bother, stick with a lead acid
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Upgrading to Lithium battery. What do I need to know?
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2019, 03:37:22 PM »
Original reg/rec doesn’t mean it has to be replaced. Or even that it should be replaced. If it’s working fine then no need to mess with it. But if you were going to get a lithium battery anyway you should change the reg/rec.

This is the one you’d want:
https://ricksmotorsportelectrics.com/Lithium-Ion-Battery-Compatible-Rectifier-Regulator-14_100

Offline nicks2319

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Re: Upgrading to Lithium battery. What do I need to know?
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2019, 06:28:41 PM »
I'm several years on an Oregon Motorcycles VRREM7-H reg/rec and Ballistic battery. The reg/rec doesn't mention anything about being "lithium safe" and it's been fine. Just don't let the lithium battery totally die, as some are unrecoverable after being low voltage.

Offline toma

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Re: Upgrading to Lithium battery. What do I need to know?
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2019, 07:29:48 PM »
Don't waste your money.

Offline PeWe

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Re: Upgrading to Lithium battery. What do I need to know?
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2019, 09:07:48 PM »
My CB750K6 got a smaller battery to get room for Hondaman ignition module
GEL battery 11Ah. Stock charging system.
My other bike has the module in the tool compartment.
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline dave500

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Re: Upgrading to Lithium battery. What do I need to know?
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2019, 12:56:12 AM »
don't waste your money

Offline BenelliSEI

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Re: Upgrading to Lithium battery. What do I need to know?
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2019, 05:16:56 AM »
And again...... don’t waste your money.

Offline kerryb

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Re: Upgrading to Lithium battery. What do I need to know?
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2019, 05:36:19 AM »
I have no intention of bying a lithium battery, nor do I wish to replace a reg/rec that is working...BUT i got to thinking about the time my father in law and I spent an afternoon setting up the stuff to adjust a stock mechanical regulator back to stock using a Clymer manual.  If I recall correctly, there a place in the procedure to adjust the set points for the charging system.  Would this be enough to run a lithium battery, or is it more more complex than that?  I suppose the charge rate is also important.
Just curious, I have no desire to waste my money.
intrigued by the wail...seduced by the scream.

Online bryanj

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Re: Upgrading to Lithium battery. What do I need to know?
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2019, 05:47:51 AM »
Altering the original reg rec is not good enough for the lithium batterm as the charging "steps" are too crude
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline kerryb

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Re: Upgrading to Lithium battery. What do I need to know?
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2019, 05:56:45 AM »
Ah! Thanks, that does make sense.
intrigued by the wail...seduced by the scream.

Offline greenjeans

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Re: Upgrading to Lithium battery. What do I need to know?
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2019, 04:00:03 PM »
Original reg/rec doesn’t mean it has to be replaced. Or even that it should be replaced. If it’s working fine then no need to mess with it. But if you were going to get a lithium battery anyway you should change the reg/rec.

This is the one you’d want:
https://ricksmotorsportelectrics.com/Lithium-Ion-Battery-Compatible-Rectifier-Regulator-14_100

If you go the lithium route:  see above.   

 If you’re staying stock, the other guys make a good point - those old Honda regulators and rectifiers rarely fail. Lead acid or gel batteries are cheaper, and can tolerate COLD temps better than lipo.

I’ve had a LiFE-Po and one of those Ricks reg/recs on my ‘70 for almost 4 years now.  Quite satisfied.
Yep, I'm the kid that figured out how to put things back together...eventually.

Offline maxheadflow

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Re: Upgrading to Lithium battery. What do I need to know?
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2019, 05:29:06 PM »
I suspect that the big issue when trying to us a LI battery on a bike with mechanical regulator is that it cannot shut off the charging voltage accurately.. You can charge LI pretty hard all the way up to that voltage but if you go above that, they short out and burn.   Solid state stuff (newer regulators) will have a much better reference to charge to and can regulate full charge voltage much better.

Offline PeWe

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Re: Upgrading to Lithium battery. What do I need to know?
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2019, 03:19:23 AM »
Some newer type of regulator- rectifiers run full constantly, burn the overvoltage to ground to keep voltage within the range.
That will produce a lot of heat and stress the alternator windings. Horrible design!
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline maxheadflow

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Re: Upgrading to Lithium battery. What do I need to know?
« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2019, 07:26:29 AM »
Some newer type of regulator- rectifiers run full constantly, burn the overvoltage to ground to keep voltage within the range.
That will produce a lot of heat and stress the alternator windings. Horrible design!

So you have data on this.. I would think that bikes run a lower speeds won't be putting out all that much power and at upper RPMs you'll have air flow.   

Do all regulators do this?

Back in 77 the shop I was in had a cb550K that had issues with the battery going dead. Bike was new and under warranty.  Told the guy to keep the Rs up but all he did was putt around town. Still it went dead. Remounted the regulator (known issue), replaced the alternator and field windings.  The Honda service rep was on this all the way.  We eventually wired the field coil full on, removed the regulator and installed a shunt type regulator out of a CB360/400.    The guy was happy. Don't know how long it lasted tho but they were standard 350s / 360s / 400s / 450 / 500T.  HD had been using that method since alternator shovels in 1970s and 80s..

Alternators a basically a current source for power, not voltage.

Some of the better newer designs use SCRs to clamp the alternator output and reduce heat.  Don't know if the newer aftermarket honda regs use this method.  If they have the rectifier built in they might.  In that case there may be more heat but probably not that much and lower RPM alternator performance can be significantly improved over the mechanical regulator that comes stock.   The stock mechanical regulator really only 3 charge modes levels based on position of the contacts and it has to rely on springs, caps and resistances to do so.. Not knocking the device. It works but it is still older technology.   Of course, you can have a newer design that, if poorly implemented, can cause issues.

Offline PeWe

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Re: Upgrading to Lithium battery. What do I need to know?
« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2019, 10:09:24 AM »
A colleage told me his Aprilia's stock  regulator work like that.
Problem if replacing std bulbs with low power LEDs that consume less power. Regulator must burn harder.

This kept me from installing the cheap electronic regulator- rectifier found cheap on Aliexpress for less than half many eBay sellers want.

These cheap stuff for CB's might work in the same way.

The stock system work fine if serviced after long time storage.
A voltage meter placed between the gauges help to see the status.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2019, 10:11:11 AM by PeWe »
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Online bryanj

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Re: Upgrading to Lithium battery. What do I need to know?
« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2019, 10:14:32 AM »
Nearly all 12 volt Brit bikes from the 70's used a "zener" diode the shunted all power to ground when battery hit about 13v, GL1000 uses similar shunt but they burn out generators
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline maxheadflow

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Re: Upgrading to Lithium battery. What do I need to know?
« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2019, 10:32:20 AM »
Nearly all 12 volt Brit bikes from the 70's used a "zener" diode the shunted all power to ground when battery hit about 13v, GL1000 uses similar shunt but they burn out generators

First off a Zener diode is not a really good way to regulate the system.   The ones used are not that accurate and have a finite impedance. It would be better to use an amplifier and another shunting device like a transistor or mosfet. Use a precision zener as a voltage reference only.

I think you mean alternators on the GLs..  While they did have a failure rate, I'm sure some of it was based on where they were placed on the motor (rear).  They typically shorted to ground very likely from the heat they saw killing the insulation.

Offline Shtonecb500

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Re: Upgrading to Lithium battery. What do I need to know?
« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2019, 12:06:50 PM »
Honestly, I love a good old’ sealed acid battery.
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75' 750f 91' cbr f2 swap cafe - mock up
74' 750 chopper hardtail - complete - sold
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Online bryanj

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Re: Upgrading to Lithium battery. What do I need to know?
« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2019, 04:09:31 PM »
Nope the GL took out generators or if you refer alternators simply because they were on full load permanently
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline maxheadflow

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Re: Upgrading to Lithium battery. What do I need to know?
« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2019, 04:18:22 PM »
Nope the GL took out generators or if you refer alternators simply because they were on full load permanently

So you are thinking that heat had nothing to do with the alternator failing?

Offline Tracksnblades1

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Re: Upgrading to Lithium battery. What do I need to know?
« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2019, 05:41:04 PM »
First off a Zener diode is not a really good way to regulate the system.   The ones used are not that accurate and have a finite impedance. It would be better to use an amplifier and another shunting device like a transistor or mosfet. Use a precision zener as a voltage reference only.

So, I read the "poor mans" Voltage Regulator (zener diode) is no longer ideal.

What was you going to use for your comparator circuit in your Voltage regulator?
Would not you need to compare the desirable regulated output to the reference voltage and adjust the pass element accordingly to maintain regulation?
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