Author Topic: HP & Dyno Numbers  (Read 9806 times)

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Offline Pinhead

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HP & Dyno Numbers
« on: February 04, 2007, 12:09:16 PM »
I've got a question (and some comments) for all of you supertuners out there.

When you choose engine components such as the camshaft and pistons (and therefore compression) what information are you basing your decisions on? Are you shooting for the highest peak horsepower? The "best breathing" head/cam at full lift? I've heard a lot of builders commenting that they want that to put out 85 to 90 horsepower in their "racing" engines (big bore kit and cam, etc.) but hardly ever hear about the more important aspect of the engine's power delivery... Recovery time.

Take this dyno sheet, for example...



The peak horsepower range is from ~7500 rpm up to ~9000 rpm.

My CB650's rpm band is very similar (though not nearly as "high" in the horsepower range lol). It really starts pulling well ~7000 rpm.

This means that in the above engine, to get your best acceleration, you have to shift out at about 9000 rpm and optimally your RPM's shouldn't drop below 7500 rpm. This gives you a pretty narrow power band of 1500 rpm. While this is manageable on the strip, it'd be a bit tougher to keep your engine in the power band through the twisties.

Wouldn't it be much more beneficial to give up a little bit of that peak horsepower for a wider power band? For instance, if your "peak" horsepower would be produced at ~6000rpm (~65hp) but at 4000 rpm the engine produces 60hp and at 9000 produces 55hp. You would be giving up 10 horsepower, but the horsepower that you do have would always be on tap.

The attached dyno print off is a good example. The blue line is the original, with the red line being the "wideband" engine. (NOTE: This is simply the above dyno sheet with a red line added for illustration purposes. I don't have access to a dyno.)
Doug

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Re: HP & Dyno Numbers
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2007, 12:52:00 PM »
Thats always been the classic trade-off, hasnt it?? - mid-range vs. top end power. One would seriously have to consider what kind of conditions they need to operate in - and set up accordingly. If you are street riding, or racing a track with short straights and lots of twisties, i'd go for midrange - makes gear and rmp selection a little more forgiving.

One point you have to remember however, is that speed is tied directly to engine RPM through the gearing of the tranny. While in the setup where there is a very broad midrange, you say you are only givig up 10 horses, however those 10 horses are right where you want them most for top speed & acceleration. You need those horses at high rpms (and subsequently high speed) to accelerate through increased drag from wind resistance - which increases exponentially with speed.

To illustrate my point, say you could setup a motor to make all of its horsepower at 3000 rpm. You'd be explsive off the line, and be able to pull stumps with it like a tractor, but you wouldnt be able to do any accelaration at all at top rpm speeds, as its power would drop off at the moment that drag increases significantly.

Offline Hockers Choppers

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Re: HP & Dyno Numbers
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2007, 01:20:49 PM »
It all comes down to torque. These engines have very little, so you have to rap the crap out of them to get hp! I'm getting close on the 850cc and once I get it together I'll be sure to post dyno #'s. It was 56.4 stock as an f3. Now it is a 850cc with f3 bottom, k topend, ported head, webcam 63a cam, retainers, f3 springs, head studs, etc. I'm hoping for upper 80's, but the dyno is always the judge!! I'm dieing to find out though!!!
The thing about common sense is that, it's not that common.

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Offline HondaMan

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Re: HP & Dyno Numbers
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2007, 04:19:43 PM »
...my weigh-in on the topic? .... :D

The higher the HP, the narrower the powerband, unless displacement is increased or carbs changed. You're right, Pin, that it gets harder to manage: for example, my 750 set up for 14,000 RPM yielded power from 13,500 to 14,200 and had to be geared to match the track where I was running: fast tracks got near-street gears and tiny tracks got 16T front and 64T rear.. If it's the street you're riding, you might want to get boots with thick soles in this configuration, because you'll be pushing off at those stopsigns..  :P

As you widen the powerband, the HP will drop. But, if you put the power where you're riding, this often makes you ride faster. In the days of 1960s-70s Production Racing, this was the game: you changed the powerband to match the tracks by riding the track to figure out what RPMs you would need to handle the corners, then go tune for it. You were not allowed to change the tranny, but sprockets were OK. Cams could only be changed if the manufacturer sold the cam in their same-series street bikes (that's why I know a lot about K0-K4 cams  8) ), likewise with pistons and carbs. So, installing a K4 cam (that had been "worn" to the production tolerance limits (-0.023") at the top and base circle of the lobes, using a grinder, but leave the rest alone) in a K1 engine would broaden the powerband from stock 6500-8500 to become about 5000-9000, with more bottom-end torque while preserving the top-end HP. This widened the cam lobe slightly, and the powerband goes with it. But, this gets into changing cams at the lobe. Wider lobes make more HP, reducing torque if the lobes overlap. If the overlap is kept down while the lobe widens, the torque stays there (this is why some "square" lobes appear in designs). If lift is increased (because the engine can benefit), the effective lobe width is usually wider by default. In the case of stock CB750K models, taller lobes have very little effect, but wider ones really help, because the throat is not a good breather in stock form.

The most successful street "drop-in" cams are those that start torque earlier with an earlier-opening, wider lobe, but keep the lift near stock for lower engine losses, with closed timing staying nearly the same. RC Engineering used to make these, but most people didn't understand their use. Every streeter I built with one of these became a neighborhood giant-killer. Chopper guys often went with the hottest, longest, highest cam they could, then found that they could hardly ride the bike in town. Chops, in particular, need low-end git-go.

The general rule-of-thumb for engine power here is the "area under the curve" concept, from calculus. Put simply, the graph you show above defines an area under the HP curve. If you image the curve being flexible, then "press down" the high RPM end, the power rises somewhere else to make the area stay the same, just like it was a balloon or something. (This presumes the carbs and cam and displacement stay the same.) Naturally, this is highly simplified, but here's an example: if you take the cam sprocket in a CB750 and slot the bolt holes where it bolts to the cam (about 1/2" both ways from center), you can "push" or "pull" the powerband around by advancing or retarding the cam by timing it in different places. If you advance the cam, the power comes on sooner, developing torque earlier, but giving up HP up high. If you go the other way, the torque is less down low, but they make more HP up high. Advancing 5 degrees on a CB750 would make the low-end torque much stronger at 4500 RPM, but top speed would drop about 5 MPH, gearing being the same. It also would feel "dead" above 7500 RPM. Setting it 8 degrees late would make the torque start about 7500 RPM and it would easily pass 10,500 RPM, pulling until the carbs got asthma. The "sweet spot", where the highest torque and highest HP both occur within the range of the oil supply and rod strength is generally where the manufacturer fixes a given cam design.

Although today, higher MPG is often a concern instead. That's a different trip.  ;)

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Offline Gordon

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Re: HP & Dyno Numbers
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2007, 04:46:13 PM »
Chalk up another one for the FAQ's.  That's some good stuff, Mark! ;D

Offline sparty

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Re: HP & Dyno Numbers
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2007, 05:15:19 PM »
Pinhead and group,

The Dyno chart for my current engine set-up is not as telling as it could be.  To make a long story short, I let off the throttle when the RPMs hit 9K.  It would have reved beyond that but to be safe I let off.  The power seemed to flatten out at that point also, but I feel that it would have continued to make the same power up to 10K if it could safely rev that far.

I like this discussion and can understand the desire to make power at a lower RPMs with a lengthened powerband across the RPMs.  However, it seems that the best race engineers still prefer to make their power at the upper limits of the rev range.  Therefore, I am with them. 

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Offline Hockers Choppers

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Re: HP & Dyno Numbers
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2007, 05:45:17 PM »
What is you setup sparty? my stock f3 redlined at 9500rpm? Ken at cyclex said 10k is no problem! Running heavy cylinder studs! These engines love abuse!!!!!!! ;D ;D ;D Don't be sceeered!!
The thing about common sense is that, it's not that common.

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Offline BobbyR

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Re: HP & Dyno Numbers
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2007, 06:58:32 PM »
I would rather have driveability over HP at 13K rpm. On the street unless you are in a race you want to be able to leave it in a gear and get around without shifting up and down all the time. Hi revving motors wear out faster. Every moving part has a finite number of cycles until it wears out.
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Offline RRRToolSolutions

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Re: HP & Dyno Numbers
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2007, 07:15:06 PM »
Several of us are waiting to be Carillo"d in fear of rod failure at high rpm with ported heads.

This is a great topic and I love reading and discussing it. To make 60 horsepoer at 4,000 as you've "drawn-in" and keep it over a 5,000 rpm range would require V-Tech, Supercharging, or some other incredible feat of filling the cylinders over a wide band. It can't be done with a single cam and 2 valve head.

60 horsepower at 4,000 rpm would require 80 lb/feet of torque or about twice what a stock CB750 is capable of. If you match components ideally suited for low rpm VE then you've got small ports and high velocity that will "rush" in and fill the cylinders quickly and achieve good atomization of air/fuel. the cam would have little overlap so fresh fuel and charge is not pushed out of the exhaust ports as reversion. This same match of components will be all wrong for higher rpm where large ports and cam lift/overlap is needed to get enough air inside the cylinder at high rpm. I'll have to check my math, but I think there is less than 1/84 of a second for each cylinder to "intake" a fresh charge at 8,000 rpm. This is a lot less than a blink of an eye. There is only one way to have it all - supercharging, but that's a whole different story.

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Offline Pinhead

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Re: HP & Dyno Numbers
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2007, 07:27:08 PM »
...my weigh-in on the topic? .... :D

The higher the HP, the narrower the powerband, unless displacement is increased or carbs changed.

What about variable valve timing? That would widen the power band without worrying about losing peak horsepower.

Several of us are waiting to be Carillo"d in fear of rod failure at high rpm with ported heads.

This is a great topic and I love reading and discussing it. To make 60 horsepoer at 4,000 as you've "drawn-in" and keep it over a 5,000 rpm range would require V-Tech, Supercharging, or some other incredible feat of filling the cylinders over a wide band. It can't be done with a single cam and 2 valve head.

V-tech is variable valve technology, right?? That'd be the only way to achieve such a broad power band.

Now, for the next topic of discussion...

Imagine you had infinitely variable valve timing. Let’s take it one step further and imagine that the valve timing was automatically adjusted for exact engine demands to maximize all operating parameters. You could idle at 300 RPM. You would hit near peak torque at under 2000 RPM and hold your torque band to as high as your camshaft would allow. You would have fantastic fuel economy, smooth idle, incredible acceleration, and all-out high end power.

Infinately Variable Valve Timing

I'm going to try it. The best thing about this approach is you don't have to sacrifice top-end to get the added torque. The intake valve stays shut as long as the pressure in the cylinder is above atmospheric. In other words, it eliminates reversion that can be caused by "long" intake duration.
Doug

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Offline RRRToolSolutions

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Re: HP & Dyno Numbers
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2007, 07:29:45 PM »
I'll add that several big-inch V-Twins can make this kind of torque at low rpm, but because their stroke is much longer, filling the cylinders fully at higher rpms (5-7,000) becomes a near impossible task, so they always fall on their faces. My 1500 Nomad tourer makes 74 lb/ft at 2,800 but by 5,000 rpm, she's all out of breath. Maximum horsepower is an stupid-low 63 horsepower. I've never ridden an old 2 valve motor that does it all.  
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Offline RRRToolSolutions

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Re: HP & Dyno Numbers
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2007, 07:40:27 PM »
If you truely want it all, then find out how to make one live with supercharging. I'm sure lowered compression, Carillo rods, and a mild camshaft and some type of oil cooler would make a monster for you. Assume that a stock CB750 made 60 horsepower and you add 1/2 atmoshere (7-8 lbs boost) you would in theory increase your output by 50% or to 90 horsepower. No porting required, no wild camshaft, nothing but timing/spark control and heavy-duty components. You'd have 150% power at 2,000 and at 9,000 rpm. You're not likely to find the computer and servos for the variable valve controlers at your local Honda dealer. That is years down the road and I'll be dust.
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Offline Pinhead

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Re: HP & Dyno Numbers
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2007, 07:52:07 PM »
You're not likely to find the computer and servos for the variable valve controlers at your local Honda dealer.

There's no servos/computers/controls other than good-old-fashioned physics doing all the work. AND there is no loss in top-end horsepower. Read the article:

Infinately Variable Valve Timing
« Last Edit: February 04, 2007, 08:57:50 PM by Pinhead »
Doug

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Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: HP & Dyno Numbers
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2007, 10:46:54 PM »
Hondaman,

When referring to widening the lobes are you referring to duration?

Pinhead,

From my understanding of VTEC as installed in my Acuras, you not only get variable timing but also variable lift. It's really amazing how well the 3.2L/198CI Legend would breathe at 140mph - pulled strong.
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Offline wardmoto

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Re: HP & Dyno Numbers
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2007, 10:04:33 AM »
By variable you mean the choice between two cam lobe profiles, then you are correct.  Hondas original VTEC (not i-VTEC) was a choice between two lobes each with their own unchangeable parameters.  Awesome stuff non the less...My Pop's 07 SI Civic is awesome, and the lobe switch is so pronounced.  Keep in mind, this technology has been around for over a decade.  If it benefitted bikes in anyway, it would have been instsalled long ago.  Honda tried it on the VFR and it actually made the bike a fat POS that was better before they messed with it(loosing the gear drive cams didn't help eithe!)  Drive by wire technology is here and it is a matter of time before traction control gets itself from Moto GP to our liter bikes.  The time from development on the track to production is short...
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Offline Pinhead

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Re: HP & Dyno Numbers
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2007, 11:49:23 AM »
Since it's obvious that nobody's actually reading the article that I linked twice, I guess I'll just have to explain it myself.

The advantage that variable valve timing has is apparent from reading Hondaman's post. BASICALLY with a lot of overlap, and opening the intake valve early (before TDC), low-end torque is compromised due to reversion (cylinder pressure pushing spent air/fuel back into the intake). The next problem is the intake valve stays open a little after BDC (starting the compression stroke) because at high RPM the velocity/momentum of the air continues to fill the cylinder. This also causes reversion at low RPM's.

The PowreValvz as MPGMike calls them (I'd call them TorqValvz) act like a check valve in the intake port; it is acted upon by cylinder pressure. Think of it like a normal intake valve with a "flapper" on the back side that acts like a check valve. At low RPM when reversion would normally occur (cylinder pressure greater than atmospheric) the intake valve stays shut for slightly longer, reducing or eliminating reversion.

They have the most effect in the "area under the curve." Basically below the cam profile. Once engine speed gets into the cam's RPM range, the PowreValvz act like normal intake valves and the torque curve flattens out. This allows you to run a lot of duration, overlap, and lift without sacrificing low-end torque.

This chart compares stock valves to the PowreValvz.

Notice how the max torque isn't effected but the area under the optimal RPM band is greatly increased. Max torque doesn't change because the valves act like normal valves when the cam profile is in its RPM range.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2007, 11:51:41 AM by Pinhead »
Doug

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Offline mlinder

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Re: HP & Dyno Numbers
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2007, 02:57:30 PM »
I'm not getting how the flapper valve works. I understand the concept, but the practice seems impractical, at best.. What is causing the flapper valve to not open (what's holding it 'closed'), and how does it open in, around the valve stem, when it does open?
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Re: HP & Dyno Numbers
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2007, 08:57:47 PM »
That PowerValvz sounds a lot like the rotary valve concept from the 2-stroke bikes. You port the head until it can't possibly run at low RPM (like WIDE cams on a 4-stroker), then install a rotating flat plate to block the engine from blowing back into the carb (thru the case, in a 2-stroker) so some of the charge will stay in the engine at lower speeds. This gives the bike some low end, then the porting makes it come alive above the intake-tract limit speeds.

Honda did this on a Four in the late 1970s or so. It worked fine until the oil pump started losing flow, at about 10,000 miles or so. The system lifted a "flap" on the following edge of the cam to increase the duration above approximately 5000 RPM. Riders complained that it came on too suddenly in wet weather, breaking rear traction, and that the powerband changed with hotter weather. Duh. I don't remember the model of bike (I was in the divorce then, didn't pay much attention...  :-\  ).

Pinhead: I hope it woks: keep us posted. I wonder about durability, though, with flapping facets on a fast-moving valve face, or however they're doing it. The same effect can be had by increasing intake tract length, which obviously is harder to do, but easier to warranty...  ;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
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Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline Pinhead

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Re: HP & Dyno Numbers
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2007, 09:55:26 PM »
I'm not getting how the flapper valve works. I understand the concept, but the practice seems impractical, at best.. What is causing the flapper valve to not open (what's holding it 'closed'), and how does it open in, around the valve stem, when it does open?

They work like a normal valve when the camshaft is in its RPM band. When the engine is running other RPM's, the flapper "opens" according to cylinder pressure which closes off the intake for a little longer to reduce reversion (I think they commonly build them for .16" extra lift).



"Open" valve, which effectively closes off the intake manifold for another .16" of camshaft lift.



And installed in what looks like a SBC head:

« Last Edit: February 05, 2007, 10:01:00 PM by Pinhead »
Doug

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Offline TomC

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Re: HP & Dyno Numbers
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2007, 06:06:07 AM »
Hi HondaMan
     You are confusing rotary valve with reed valve. Many non motorcycle reed valve 2-stroke engines have no timing. The reed valve does all the controlling of the intake flow.
          TomC     
That PowerValvz sounds a lot like the rotary valve concept from the 2-stroke bikes. You port the head until it can't possibly run at low RPM (like WIDE cams on a 4-stroker), then install a rotating flat plate to block the engine from blowing back into the carb (thru the case, in a 2-stroker) so some of the charge will stay in the engine at lower speeds. This gives the bike some low end, then the porting makes it come alive above the intake-tract limit speeds.

Honda did this on a Four in the late 1970s or so. It worked fine until the oil pump started losing flow, at about 10,000 miles or so. The system lifted a "flap" on the following edge of the cam to increase the duration above approximately 5000 RPM. Riders complained that it came on too suddenly in wet weather, breaking rear traction, and that the powerband changed with hotter weather. Duh. I don't remember the model of bike (I was in the divorce then, didn't pay much attention...  :-\  ).

Pinhead: I hope it woks: keep us posted. I wonder about durability, though, with flapping facets on a fast-moving valve face, or however they're doing it. The same effect can be had by increasing intake tract length, which obviously is harder to do, but easier to warranty...  ;)
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Offline MRieck

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Re: HP & Dyno Numbers
« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2007, 07:00:21 AM »
 That double headed valve looks very heavy. That in itself isn't that great. I don't think anyone mentioned the fact that low/short duration cams produce more torque is more secondary to the fact the valves close earlier on the compression stroke which increases compression which increases torque. Reversion is the nature of the high performance 4 stroke beast...when you are revving an engine at 10,000, 12,000, 14,000 RPM charge is going in both directions no matter what you do. It certainly is a good idea to try and minimize it but you'll never eliminate it.
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Offline Pinhead

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Re: HP & Dyno Numbers
« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2007, 09:26:56 AM »
I don't think anyone mentioned the fact that low/short duration cams produce more torque is more secondary to the fact the valves close earlier on the compression stroke which increases compression which increases torque.

That's another advantage that these valves have. When the cylinder pressure rises above atmospheric pressure (and therefore above intake pressure), it "blows" the valve shut, increasing compression at the low-end.

That double headed valve looks very heavy. That in itself isn't that great.

That is one issue that would be dealt with. I'm not sure exactly how much more it weighs than a normal valve, but I'm sure if you keep "stock" RPM figures you can simply install heavier intake valve springs to keep them from floating.

Reversion is the nature of the high performance 4 stroke beast...when you are revving an engine at 10,000, 12,000, 14,000 RPM charge is going in both directions no matter what you do. It certainly is a good idea to try and minimize it but you'll never eliminate it.

That's exactly the reason for these valves. They only have "so much" free play so it obviously won't completely eliminate reversion, but it obviously does enough to give some substantial gains.

Honda did this on a Four in the late 1970s or so. It worked fine until the oil pump started losing flow, at about 10,000 miles or so. The system lifted a "flap" on the following edge of the cam to increase the duration above approximately 5000 RPM. Riders complained that it came on too suddenly in wet weather, breaking rear traction, and that the powerband changed with hotter weather. Duh. I don't remember the model of bike (I was in the divorce then, didn't pay much attention...  :-\  ).

That's another benefit these valves have over other "variable" cam timing technologies. They're not sudden, not only two or three different positions. They're infinitely variable, controlled by cylinder pressure and have no expensive computer controls that will break down.

Pinhead: I hope it woks: keep us posted. I wonder about durability, though, with flapping facets on a fast-moving valve face, or however they're doing it.

Their first test batch were installed in a few Harleys and a lot of SBC's and VW engines. After 50,000 miles they were pulled and inspected, and were just as good as new (albeit not as shiny). That first batch was made a little cheaper than the current production line and the new ones are made out of much harder stainless steel that will last a lot longer (100,000 miles +). They're not completely sure how long they'll last because they haven't pulled any broken/bad ones out of any of the test engines.

The same effect can be had by increasing intake tract length, which obviously is harder to do, but easier to warranty...  ;)

That's one reason I think they'd work so well with our bikes. Our intake tracts are so short reversion runs amok. They've tested mostly on cars with MUCH longer intake tracts (with outstanding results), which don't suffer from reversion as much (more air, more momentum).
« Last Edit: February 06, 2007, 09:43:05 AM by Pinhead »
Doug

Click --> Cheap Regulator/Rectifier for any of Honda's 3-phase charging systems (all SOHC4's).

GM HEI Ignition Conversion

Quote from: TwoTired
By the way, I'm going for the tinfoil pants...so they can't read my private thoughts.
:D

Offline dusterdude

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Re: HP & Dyno Numbers
« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2007, 11:33:12 AM »
where might someone purchase these valves
mark
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Offline paxtonpony

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Re: HP & Dyno Numbers
« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2007, 03:14:16 PM »
Other than weight, I'd think you would have to watch your clearances very carefully.  Kind of clunky looking too, wouldn't put a lot of revs to that thing.  Might work pretty sweet in a diesel though.
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Offline chung

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Re: HP & Dyno Numbers
« Reply #24 on: February 06, 2007, 04:06:13 PM »
I have never tried to attach anything here but here is a try

Now here is the torque curve that you seek Grasshopper :-*
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