Topic: LED turn signals conversion from stock

[Lou]

I'd like to convert to LED turn signals front and back, if possible. My '73 CB350F is completely stock but I'd like better visibility with the LEDs.

Can I simply plug in 1157 LED bulbs or do I need to also replace the turn signal flasher relay with one designed for LEDs? Is there anything else that would need to be done?

Any recommendations on bulbs and other parts?

Thanks!

[Deltarider]

Are you sure you want them? LED turn signals are not well noticed from the side and they don't have the glow-on glow-off effect that conventional bulbs offer which contributes to drawing attention. LED appear quite dead, especially in brakelights I found out. They do fine in taillights though.
Then you would need another flasher relay and extra diodes for the idiot light.

[gtmdriver]

If you want to go ahead and do it there are two options.

LED's only draw a tiny current which is not enough to operate a normal flasher unit so

1. Swap the standard flasher unit for an electronic version. If you look around you will find one that will work with LED's, standard filament bulbs or a mixture of both. These units use a timer circuit to regulate the flash rate so they flash at the same speed regardless of current draw.

2. Wire a separate resistor in parallel with each LED bulb to increase the current draw of the circuit so that a standard flasher unit will operate correctly.

I would recommend option 1 personally.

[Bankerdanny]

My 550 ran LED's in the front turn signal/running lights and conventional bulbs in the back. The LED's are much brighter and more visible in bright sunlight making me more visible to oncoming traffic.

By running regular bulbs in the back I didn't need to use resistors, although I did also switch to a solid state flasher. You can upgrade the rears to brighter conventional bulbs for a little more visibility.

[Deltarider]

Never heard of complaints on the visibility of our turn indicators before. Hard to imagine there is a problem since US CB350F models even have 25 Watts bulbs, where Europe models had 18 Watts and the CB350F for France had even 10 Watts. It is because brightness hardly is a factor. It is the pulsating of the light that draws attention, the more glow-on glow-off the better. Hard to imagine US 25 Watts bulbs perform worse than Europe 18 Watts. I run 18 Watts on my bike and they are very visible, also from the sides.

[calj737]

Never heard of complaints on the visibility of our turn indicators before. Hard to imagine there is a problem since US CB350F models even have 25 Watts bulbs, where Europe models had 18 Watts and the CB350F for France had even 10 Watts. It is because brightness hardly is a factor. It is the pulsating of the light that draws attention, the more glow-on glow-off the better. Hard to imagine US 25 Watts bulbs perform worse than Europe 18 Watts. I run 18 Watts on my bike and they are very visible, also from the sides.

And yet, every modern vehicle uses LED. I guess all manufacturers are wrong and technology development should have stood still 40 years ago. What a dolt...

[Deltarider]

And yet, every modern vehicle uses LED. I guess all manufacturers are wrong and technology development should have stood still 40 years ago. What a dolt...

Good day to you, Calj, always a pleasure to have you on, mate. You know, you cannot always compare things just like that. Like you I have nothing against technology development. On the contrary, all the lights in my house have been LED since many, many years. But... there's a distinction between led indicators specially developped by car makers to fit a particular model and cheap generic aftermarket thingies that often have their origin in China and that only have to perform well in advertising.
For a start, all cars In Europe must have an extra turn indicator in the sides of the car which counters the limited angle of visibility that comes with LED. Bikes in general don't have that extra indicator in the side. So bikers depend on the front and rear indicator for their intentions to be noticed also at an angle. Moreover car makers have room to design LED thus, that the angle of visibility is sufficient, for instance by using the special projectors that LED technology happens to require.
Then a bit more about this 'deadness' of LED compared to the lively glow-on glow-off of conventional bulbs that makes you aware something is changing. I ran (almost literally) into this two times. In both cases it was a big bus in front of me. I almost ran into it because I had not seen the brake lights come on. All of a sudden those lights must have been on. But I had never seen them coming on. Now I invite anyone to check this for him or her self but my feeling is, it is not only me. Is it a coincidence that I now see more and more cars and trucks that have adapted to this shortcoming of LED and now are making them better noticed? Carmaker Audi choose this solution to make LED indicators livelier and so better noticed. It's a bit difficult to realise that on a bike however.

[centerpunch]

All of a sudden those lights must have been on. But I had never seen them coming on.

LED lights come on essentially instantly, incandescent lights take time (a fraction of a second) to (literally) warm up.

So LEDs will ALWAYS illuminate sooner.

[Deltarider]

All of a sudden those lights must have been on. But I had never seen them coming on.

LED lights come on essentially instantly, incandescent lights take time (a fraction of a second) to (literally) warm up.

So LEDs will ALWAYS illuminate sooner.

You've missed the point. Human brains are programmed to detect things changing. The signal something is changing is better received with the glowing on - glowing off that comes with incandescent bulbs. You can have missed a LED coming on when you just blinked in that very instant. This is a problem in particular with led brake lights. With incandescent you will still witness the process of glowing on, even when you blink your eye.

[mattsz]

You've missed the point. Human brains are programmed to detect things changing. The signal something is changing is better received with the glowing on - glowing off that comes with incandescent bulbs. You can have missed a LED coming on when you just blinked in that very instant. This is a problem in particular with led brake lights. With incandescent you will still witness the process of glowing on, even when you blink your eye.

Hey Deltarider - is this your own theory, perhaps based on personal experience, or do you have any info or data to back it up?  I'm not trying to troll you here, I'm genuinely curious about your claim and I would like to know more about it if you know of any reports or resources.

I always assumed that fancy LED turn signal light patterns like the one shown in your video were just irritating gimmicks, done simply because they can!

The popularity of "modulated" brake lights suggests that you may be onto something...

[Deltarider]

You've missed the point. Human brains are programmed to detect things changing. The signal something is changing is better received with the glowing on - glowing off that comes with incandescent bulbs. You can have missed a LED coming on when you just blinked in that very instant. This is a problem in particular with led brake lights. With incandescent you will still witness the process of glowing on, even when you blink your eye.

Hey Deltarider - is this your own theory, perhaps based on personal experience, or do you have any info or data to back it up?

Definitely my own theory based on personal experience. I almost ran into a bus when I had not noticed the brake lights had come on. They must have come on when I blinked my eyes or something. When this happened another time, I began to reflect on why this had happened. I began to pay attention to this phenomenon and realised that Led in blinkers and brakelights - in spite of their brightness - did not warn me as much as conventional bulbs do. The latter are also better noticed in the corner of your eye*. Was it just me? I don't think so. I see more and more cars and trucks that have overcome this shortcoming by lights that 'move', a good solution IMO. Although I myself hate amber and have almost removed anything amber on my bike (more on this soon) I have to admit it is the best color by far to alarm us, possibly because in evolution we have learned to be at guard when we see anything that resembles fire.

I always assumed that fancy LED turn signal light patterns like the one shown in your video were just irritating gimmicks, done simply because they can!

Could be, but maybe not. I see them more and more on lorries too and they do their job IMO.

The popularity of "modulated" brake lights suggests that you may be onto something...

For me, the combination brake light and LED is DEAD. As said I almost ran into a bus, not once but twice.
* The corner of our eye is also an interesting subject. I don't know if you are familiar with these cat films on Youtube. If your cat is eating from its bowl, put something behind him like a cucumber. As soon as the cat spots this in the corner of his eye, watch him flying towards the ceiling instantly. Why? His brain is programmed to interpret this as a snake. Now the funny thing is, I must have something of a cat. A few times in my life I freaked out detecting in the corner of my eye something I thought was a snake. I did not fly towards the ceiling though.

[centerpunch]

We’ll have to agree to disagree.

There’s no bigger change than something going instantly from off to full-on.

When LED taillights first appeared, I immediately noticed the vehicles they were on because the brake lights were MORE attention-getting than slow conventional bulbs.

[mattsz]

Thanks Deltarider...

* The corner of our eye is also an interesting subject. I don't know if you are familiar with these cat films on Youtube. If your cat is eating from its bowl, put something behind him like a cucumber. As soon as the cat spots this in the corner of his eye, watch him flying towards the ceiling instantly. Why? His brain is programmed to interpret this as a snake. Now the funny thing is, I must have something of a cat. A few times in my life I freaked out detecting in the corner of my eye something I thought was a snake. I did not fly towards the ceiling though.

Maybe it's not snakes that are your problem, but cucumbers?

[centerpunch]

I would have to say I agree with this guy (https://blog.oppedahl.com/?p=400), who says:

Many new cars these days, especially the more expensive cars, use LED bulbs almost exclusively instead of traditional incandescent bulbs.  But my car is just old enough, and just inexpensive enough, that all of the tail lights, brake lights, turn signal lights, and running lights are old-fashioned incandescent bulbs.

Why do we care about this?

The chief reason we care about this is that when you tap the brake pedal of your car, it closes an electrical switch that sends an electric current through your brake lights.  The tungsten filaments heat up, and about one-tenth of a second later, the brake lights light up.

If only you were to replace the incandescent bulbs with LED bulbs, the brake lights would light up instantly.

How far does the car behind you, speeding along at 70 miles per hour, travel in a tenth of a second?  Turns out, about ten feet.  So if you swap out your incandescent brake lights for LEDs, you might avoid some car accident where some inattentive driver behind you rear-ends your car.  You give the inattentive driver behind you an extra ten feet to react to the situation.

There is also a physiology-of-perception aspect to this.  It turns out that the human visual cortex is optimized to detect the first derivative (calculus again!) of the brightness of things.  A brake light that lights up instantly is more noticed by the visual cortex than a brake light that gradually changes from off to on over a tenth of a second, because the first derivative is higher in magnitude.  Look at a few car brake lights the next time you are driving around and you will see this for yourself.  You can immediately pick out the cars that have LED brake lights.  It’s just much more noticeable than incandescent brake lights.

[calj737]

I would have to say I agree with this guy (https://blog.oppedahl.com/?p=400), who says:

Many new cars these days, especially the more expensive cars, use LED bulbs almost exclusively instead of traditional incandescent bulbs.  But my car is just old enough, and just inexpensive enough, that all of the tail lights, brake lights, turn signal lights, and running lights are old-fashioned incandescent bulbs.

Why do we care about this?

The chief reason we care about this is that when you tap the brake pedal of your car, it closes an electrical switch that sends an electric current through your brake lights.  The tungsten filaments heat up, and about one-tenth of a second later, the brake lights light up.

If only you were to replace the incandescent bulbs with LED bulbs, the brake lights would light up instantly.

How far does the car behind you, speeding along at 70 miles per hour, travel in a tenth of a second?  Turns out, about ten feet.  So if you swap out your incandescent brake lights for LEDs, you might avoid some car accident where some inattentive driver behind you rear-ends your car.  You give the inattentive driver behind you an extra ten feet to react to the situation.

There is also a physiology-of-perception aspect to this.  It turns out that the human visual cortex is optimized to detect the first derivative (calculus again!) of the brightness of things.  A brake light that lights up instantly is more noticed by the visual cortex than a brake light that gradually changes from off to on over a tenth of a second, because the first derivative is higher in magnitude.  Look at a few car brake lights the next time you are driving around and you will see this for yourself.  You can immediately pick out the cars that have LED brake lights.  It’s just much more noticeable than incandescent brake lights.

Precisely. Science over anecdotal opinion. Really, some personal observation about a cat and a cucumber? What the Ef??

[mattsz]

Precisely. Science over anecdotal opinion. Really, some personal observation about a cat and a cucumber? What the Ef??

That blog poster simply said, "it turns out that..." and then made a statement.  Nothing scientific about that, on its own - might as well be personal observation without data or sources to back it up...

[calj737]

Precisely. Science over anecdotal opinion. Really, some personal observation about a cat and a cucumber? What the Ef??

That blog poster simply said, "it turns out that..." and then made a statement.  Nothing scientific about that, on its own - might as well be personal observation without data or sources to back it up...

It surely represents a citation of a research study as I read it. "It turns out..." is generally an accepted conclusion of a hypothesis or scientific premise. You will also notice, "There is also a physiology-of-perception aspect to this." Physiology is not anecdotal, it too is science.

You are free to interpret these posts as you wish. Perhaps it would behove you to know something about the author of that article prior to posting a dismissive: https://www.oppedahl.com/attorneys/oppedahl.htm

[kerryb]

Just to interject a little personal (subjective) experience...
I switched the tail light bulbs on my old goldwing to LED to give the alternator a little help.  I put in (1157) bulbs from the automotive aisle at the chinese big box store and thought all was good.  Later the folks I was riding with said my tail lights were hard to see, and appeared dim.  I swapped the originals back in and later that day the others reported they were much better.
Point I'm trying to make is, if you go the LED route, make sure to get good, high- brightness bulbs.  Don't endanger yourself trying to save a few bucks.

Swapping to a modern flasher was the easiest part, a NAPA two-wire unit for under $10.

[Deltarider]

You all are invited to find out for your self ofcourse. As far as turn signals and brake lights, I rather have incandescent bulbs in front of me. I am convinced that at least I am programmed to detect changing things better than things that have changed. That's what I found out. But again: you can find out for your self.
If you allow me a little side step. I always had the oldfashioned type of depht sounder on my yacht. Nowadays all modern yachts have digital displays that unfortunately are less intuitive. The old type that I had, you still find on many professional fisherman boats btw. The red diode light at the top is the outgoing signal, the second one (in the pic at 3 o'clock) is the returning signal which moves around the scale according to the depth. Now what the advantage was of this old type depth sounder is, that you did not only read the actual depth, but also saw the rate depth was changing. I used to sail shallow waters with treacherous sandbanks, some steep, some not. My depth sounder always gave me the feeling by showing this rate of change, how fast I was approaching limits and when I had to tack. You will never feel this rate of change by just changing digits on your dash.
As I've said before, LED lights do fine in tail lights but even then, be aware that LED in principal will need special projectors. Some of you may remember I've spent quite some time for an upgrade of my pilot light so I could use it as a DRL. Some advised: buy LED and be done with it. Glad I didn't. Have a look at the pics of the truck below where its pilot lights were changed for LED. Can you even detect them? Not a good result, is it? I have replaced mine by a 21 Watts Ba9s halogen that illuminates all of the reflector and so makes a good DRL. Just another bulb and nothing else. Cost was negligible.
And as far as claims of science etc, let me show a work of art by Bansky that demonstrates who we really are. Have a pleasant Christmas season, all of you!

[calj737]

Your “depth finder” is referred to as a “flasher”. It’s become obviated by modern Depth Finders due to the integration of accurate seabed surveys that are used as an overlay, but one can also use a dynamic graph to illustrate in linear fashion not only the change in topography, but the surface condition of the seabed.

Face it, you like old things and have led a satisfied life with them. Perfectly fine. But recognize that technology and innovation is an ongoing process and while you may not prefer it, understand it’s merits, or even want it, many others do.

[Deltarider]

Good day to you, Calj. Always an honour to have you reading my post.

... It’s become obviated by modern Depth Finders due to the integration of accurate seabed surveys that are used as an overlay, but one can also use a dynamic graph to illustrate in linear fashion not only the change in topography, but the surface condition of the seabed...

Don't I know it, Cal, don't I know it. Yet thousands and thousands of yachts still have that basic digital depth sounder display (digits only) which back in the day was also 'recognised' as an 'innovation', which it wasn't, as it offered less ergonomics than its predecessor. And that basic one was the depth sounder in my comparison. It was to demonstrate that something can have a shortcoming when we have a shortcoming. What you demonstrate, is not clear, not to me, me 'a dolt' as you have put it. Is your advice to hurry to the shops over and over again anytime? I mean, face it, Cal, some here are still recovering from the sugar rush of buying that Motogadget. Have not read much about that one anymore.

Face it, you like old things and have led a satisfied life with them. Perfectly fine. But recognize that technology and innovation is an ongoing process and while you may not prefer it, understand it’s merits, or even want it, many others do.

Look, there is 'an ongoing process in technology and innovation' and there is... us, us with all the bagage we have inherited in an also 'ongoing process' known as evolution and, believe me, sometimes these ongoing processes are out of step.
But don't get me wrong, I anxiously await your comment on the 'merits' of the LEDs in that truck's headlights. Here are the pics once more. Can't wait.