Author Topic: A running problem...  (Read 840 times)

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Offline Tomshep

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A running problem...
« on: December 22, 2019, 03:48:21 am »
My 400/4 starts on four, goes very nicely but when it warms up it begins to misfire, first on one pair of cylinders (my guess,) followed very shortly afterwards by the other two conking out and silence. A few minutes later it runs again but not for long.
Because it doesn't run reliably, I haven't ridden it home as was the plan (Le Mans to Cherbourg then on the boat to Poole where I live.)
If it were one pair, you would say condenser. If it is both pairs though, it seems a long shot that both have failed. Because they fail in turn, it rules out the ignition and kill switches and running with the tank cap open has ruled out fuel starvation. 
If somebody told me that the exhaust valve clearances were too tight, It would be believeable although I would expect to lose cylinders one at a time so it seems unlikely to be that. The PO changed coils and probably condensers. I shall be taking out new condensers to fit and try, a new battery, a good multimeter and half a century's electronics know how. I plan to check the earthing of the points plate, the field coil regulator, I have a new rectifier if needed and obviously the stator and field coil resistances and their ground isolation. When it is running, it is clearly well carburated with no flat spots and access to the upper reaches of the tacho as well as  that addictive howl so there isn't anything apparently wrong with the fuelling. Testing the plug caps to see if they are resistive and checking the plugs to ensure that they aren't  is on the list but this one looks like it may be tricky to isolate so any ideas would be welcome if you have seen this bug before.


Offline Deltarider

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Re: A running problem...
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2019, 04:11:20 am »
... If it were one pair, you would say condenser. If it is both pairs though, it seems a long shot that both have failed. Because they fail in turn, it rules out the ignition...
When OEM condensers, I agree, with aftermarket who knows?* Anyway, have a look at the point surfaces and see if they are pitted.
Quote
The PO changed coils
What brand are they? What's their resistance? Primary circuit should be 4,5 - 5Ω.
Quote
... I plan to check the earthing of the points plate...
?
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When it is running, it is clearly well carburated with no flat spots and access to the upper reaches of the tacho as well as  that addictive howl so there isn't anything apparently wrong with the fuelling.
Any inline fuel filters that may hinder fuel flow intermittently? Often a problem on a CB500/550.
Have you tried new plugs?
* For condensers watch: //www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3cuvGVwnjI  With engine running, see if there's excessive arcing at the breakerpoints. A tiny bit of sparking is normal, excessive sparking is not good. In this vid left condensor (1+4) is bad, right condensor (2+3) is good. Test is best performed with engine fully warmed up.

« Last Edit: December 22, 2019, 04:25:01 am by Deltarider »
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Offline Tomshep

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Re: A running problem...
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2019, 04:45:27 am »
Coils are standard Honda and the condensers are as well. Points surfaces are smooth and clean, there is no evidence of arcing.

Offline Deltarider

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Re: A running problem...
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2019, 04:54:54 am »
Coils are standard Honda and the condensers are as well. Points surfaces are smooth and clean, there is no evidence of arcing.
And did PO firmly connect the coils primary (B/W) leads?
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Offline Tomshep

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Re: A running problem...
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2019, 06:23:08 am »
A professional mechanic, he certainly will have done. (Next door neighbour, well known to me and more than averagely capable!)

Offline Deltarider

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Re: A running problem...
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2019, 06:45:11 am »
I'm lost. And your bike does charge as it should? What voltage do you read at the battery terminals say @ 4000 rpm?
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Offline Tomshep

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Re: A running problem...
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2019, 07:08:41 am »
I shall find out in a week's time but that is a definite clue because I am wondering if this is a low voltage problem, the sort of thing you get when one phase isn't connected.  It is certainly high on my list of suspicions. Thanks for your ideas.

Offline bryanj

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Re: A running problem...
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2019, 02:18:34 pm »
Cap open DOES NOT  mean good fuel supply the tap(petvock) filter or even body may be semi blocked with crud and not allowing enough quantity of fuel to the carbs
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Offline Spanner 1

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Re: A running problem...
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2019, 02:24:19 pm »
I'm with those who think it's condensers, I've had them fail with temperature. Try riding with the points cover off from cold and see if it will run OK for longer.
If your sure it's a carb problem; it's ignition,
If your sure it's an ignition problem; it's carbs....

Offline Tomshep

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Re: A running problem...
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2019, 02:58:07 pm »
Engine will run WOT until it starts to miss after ten minutes then loses both sets of sparks after eleven.
Thinks: one condenser goes short and drags battery voltage down enough to glunk the other coil's attempt to keep the motor running?
Does it suddenly so still not likely to be fuel starvation.

Offline scottly

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Re: A running problem...
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2019, 09:37:03 pm »
Daiichi brand condensers are Notorious for failing similar to what you are describing, and their points also have a poor reputation. ;) Look for the three bladed propeller logo on the ends of the condensers; if present, buy some proper TEC parts..
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Offline BenelliSEI

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Re: A running problem...
« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2019, 01:24:58 am »
+1 to BRYANJ. Don’t ignore fuel supply. Any flow restriction will create all the symptoms you describe.