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Author Topic: Removing Sleeves  (Read 828 times)

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Offline bwaller

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Removing Sleeves
« on: January 13, 2020, 12:43:35 pm »
Short explanation...send my cylinder to Millenium for re-plating. They returned it with one sleeve only partly plated, really badly. If that wasn't bad enough they bead blasted the gasket surfaces. In negotiation I told them I would send one sleeve back to be bored & plated.

My thinking was I would remove the sleeves here, clean up the surfaces on a surface plate and re-install the sleeves when the fourth was returned.

After three attempts I'm unable to remove the damned things! I've removed sleeves with heat many times but these are not playing by the rules. I've contacted Millenium to see if they have done something to hold them tight. I suppose blasting may have embedded trash in the sleeve bases, although that hasn't held me up before.

I can just send the whole cylinder back, but I'm fed up with the #$%* that happens when things leave my possession.

Any ideas?

UPDATE: Just received news they may have "glued" the sleeves in. This just gets more & more #$%*ty.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2020, 01:29:15 pm by bwaller »

Offline Tracksnblades1

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Re: Removing Sleeves
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2020, 01:59:56 pm »
Sorry to hear this... I hope it's a single isolated example..

Hearing of the glue would only worry me more, especially what is it's thermal coefficient rating.
I can not see the glue doing anything but thermally impairing (insulating) the sleeve's heat transfer to the aluminum block.

I would rather my sleeves be bored/honed while in the block. Preferably torqued down simulating all the distortion the sleeves would be subjected to. Heat would be even better.

Red 272 Loctite gives it up @ 470*....

I'm watching this to see Millenium's resolution .... 
« Last Edit: January 13, 2020, 02:06:11 pm by Tracksnblades1 »
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Offline simon#42

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Re: Removing Sleeves
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2020, 02:01:16 pm »
i heat them to 550 degrees c   , they normally drop out then . failing that i would heat them and use light pressure with the press . failing that i would stick it in the mill and machine it out -
brent you tend to find that everything you send to someone else comes back worse than you expect !

Offline calj737

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Re: Removing Sleeves
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2020, 02:13:17 pm »
Try dropping the block in the freezer. The moisture won’t hurt the aluminum, and if the sleeves were plated, you can easily wipe them afterwards. Should allow the metals to shrink away from each other sufficiently.
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Offline gschuld

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Re: Removing Sleeves
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2020, 03:12:16 pm »
Brent,

I’ve removed 8-10 cylinder blocks worth of sleeves.

FWIW: 

I take an older propane barbaque grill, and bring both burners up on high setting.  I made up
a simple wooden jig.  1x6” oak board, the bottom being the total length of the cylinder block.  Then cut two pieces about 4” long.  I screwed the 4” blocks near the end vertically at an ID position just longer than the OD distance between the #1 and #4 sleeve flanges.  I then place the oak jig in grill on top of a plate of aluminum(to help prevent the oak from catching fire).  I place the cylinder block upside down on the jig so that once the block reaches a certain temp, the sleeves start to move a little or drop out on their own.  I shut the grill lid and watch the temp rise, playing rounds of frisbee catch with my dog while I wait(she loves that).  Once the grill (and block) temp rises to about 450 degree Fahrenheit, things start to get loose.  I give it another 25 degrees then open the grill top, and position the end of a 12” length of 2x4 over the first sleeve and lightly tap the sleeve out with a rubber mallet(often it just falls out with little effort unto to oak board(jig.  The block starts cooling off fast with the lid open, so sometimes I can get all 4 in one shot if they all come out fast, sometimes I need to close the lid again after 2 sleeves and bring the temp back up to over 450 F and try again.  I try to not put more heat into the block than necessary.

I’ve never had an issue removing sleeves this way.  Then again, I’ve never seen glued in sleeves either.

My experience has been if the block is hot enough to remove one sleeve, the other sleeves will be loosened up too.  So your challenge ....should be ....to remove one without moving the others at all.  It might be best to remove all of them.  The reset all of them once your sleeve is returned.

George

Offline bwaller

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Re: Removing Sleeves
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2020, 07:09:44 pm »
Thanks guys. This isn't my first rodeo with sleeve removal either, but these bastards are tight. I have never had this problem before. My guy at Millenium was tripping over himself offering to make this right, so before I over heat anything or break a sleeve bottom tapping on it, I'll let them step up.

The last discussion we had before I shipped them the cylinder ended with "don't worry Brent we do this all the time." I had told him not to touch the lower gasket surface, nor the upper deck unless absolutely necessary. Bead blasting both is ridiculous.

Tracksnblades I agree about the bloody glue. I use sleeve orings and the sleeves are not going anywhere if seated correctly. They must have an in house tolerance for sleeve/cylinder but we'll have this discussion as they are to call when they receive the cylinder back, because like you I thought about heat transfer.

So I am sending the whole cylinder back with a spare sleeve although I shouldn't even have to supply one considering. Except I have plenty.

I consider Millenium a top shelf outfit, how this slipped through the cracks I don't understand. I'll give them every opportunity.

Simon I do wish I could manage every process needed at home......just because!

Offline 754

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Re: Removing Sleeves
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2020, 08:46:34 pm »
Drop a block in the freezer , is 100 degrees difference.
 Oven at 500 is 400 degrees difference, that will work.

 If you blast  propane unlit through the bore or dry ice it may shrink sleeve enough.  But it has to be fast or the cylinder will shrink too.
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Offline PeWe

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Re: Removing Sleeves
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2020, 09:28:44 pm »
Wow! That bad quality from a wellknown company as Millenium with customers worldwide!
One thing to do that mistake, horrible to ship it.  One person can make real badwill.

Glue the sleeves to seal them?

I have had thoughts to use Loctite 290 to seal a 900cc cylinder I have to ensure no oil creeping up and out thru the bored thru vents between 1-2 and 3-4.

That Loctite is very thin, thinner than water to be used after bolts/ nuts are tightened. Here with sleeves in cylinder.  Not high strenght either.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2020, 09:33:20 pm by PeWe »

Offline 754

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Re: Removing Sleeves
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2020, 10:04:09 pm »
I think by glue they mean loctite..
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dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline turboguzzi

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Re: Removing Sleeves
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2020, 02:32:04 am »
Well Brent, I trust you that if you say you tried and it's stuck, then it's stuck....considering also the blasted surfaces, which who knows if they are true, then I would put that block on a big bandsaw and make deep slits at the front and back of each sleeve, and then crack each piece out with a big chisel to free the sleeves.
A used 500-550 block should cost little, so send them the free sleeves and the used block to sunk them in.

Offline simon#42

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Re: Removing Sleeves
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2020, 10:01:47 am »
Well Brent, I trust you that if you say you tried and it's stuck, then it's stuck....considering also the blasted surfaces, which who knows if they are true, then I would put that block on a big bandsaw and make deep slits at the front and back of each sleeve, and then crack each piece out with a big chisel to free the sleeves.
A used 500-550 block should cost little, so send them the free sleeves and the used block to sunk them in.

i see you have got the hang of italian engineering now yossef !

Offline turboguzzi

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Re: Removing Sleeves
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2020, 11:45:15 am »
No Simon, no self respecting Italian I know of would do that, this is pure Israeli Army McGiver style.

Offline simon#42

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Re: Removing Sleeves
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2020, 02:05:52 pm »
allas i know italians who would make the Israeli army look gentle , they unfortunately worked for large gp teams .

Offline MRieck

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Re: Removing Sleeves
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2020, 03:46:36 pm »
Well Brent, I trust you that if you say you tried and it's stuck, then it's stuck....considering also the blasted surfaces, which who knows if they are true, then I would put that block on a big bandsaw and make deep slits at the front and back of each sleeve, and then crack each piece out with a big chisel to free the sleeves.
A used 500-550 block should cost little, so send them the free sleeves and the used block to sunk them in.

i see you have got the hang of italian engineering now yossef !
Funny $hit right there. ;D ;)
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Offline maxheadflow

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Re: Removing Sleeves
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2020, 07:50:07 pm »
Well Brent, I trust you that if you say you tried and it's stuck, then it's stuck....considering also the blasted surfaces, which who knows if they are true, then I would put that block on a big bandsaw and make deep slits at the front and back of each sleeve, and then crack each piece out with a big chisel to free the sleeves.
A used 500-550 block should cost little, so send them the free sleeves and the used block to sunk them in.

Last  I checked the band on a bandsaw is a loop. How do you get one side of the loop through the hole?

I suppose if you had a band saw with a welder, you slide the blade through the hole, weld it, make the cuts, then cut the blade.

Offline 754

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Re: Removing Sleeves
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2020, 08:20:00 pm »
That is just asking for disaster, easier to bore it on a mill, one side near thru, then shift to far side and repeat..
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
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Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline turboguzzi

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Re: Removing Sleeves
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2020, 11:29:38 pm »
Well Brent, I trust you that if you say you tried and it's stuck, then it's stuck....considering also the blasted surfaces, which who knows if they are true, then I would put that block on a big bandsaw and make deep slits at the front and back of each sleeve, and then crack each piece out with a big chisel to free the sleeves.
A used 500-550 block should cost little, so send them the free sleeves and the used block to sunk them in.

Last  I checked the band on a bandsaw is a loop. How do you get one side of the loop through the hole?

I suppose if you had a band saw with a welder, you slide the blade through the hole, weld it, make the cuts, then cut the blade.
good one :) not "exactly" what i had in mind... idea was to retain the good sleeves not the block, sawing it off from the outside....

Offline maxheadflow

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Re: Removing Sleeves
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2020, 11:00:49 am »
Well Brent, I trust you that if you say you tried and it's stuck, then it's stuck....considering also the blasted surfaces, which who knows if they are true, then I would put that block on a big bandsaw and make deep slits at the front and back of each sleeve, and then crack each piece out with a big chisel to free the sleeves.
A used 500-550 block should cost little, so send them the free sleeves and the used block to sunk them in.

Last  I checked the band on a bandsaw is a loop. How do you get one side of the loop through the hole?

I suppose if you had a band saw with a welder, you slide the blade through the hole, weld it, make the cuts, then cut the blade.
good one :) not "exactly" what i had in mind... idea was to retain the good sleeves not the block, sawing it off from the outside....

Ug.. Got it..

Offline maxheadflow

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Re: Removing Sleeves
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2020, 11:20:50 am »
Went back and reread the start.  IMO I would not remove sleeves and reinstall without boring afterwards.   I suspect that the as the block cools, the holes will no longer be true.  In the case here, I'd send it back.  I'm not sure how Millenium managed to screw up one cylinder except that they maybe didn't oversize it enough before plating?  Aren't the cylinders honed to size after plating?  As far as blasted gasket surfaces, I''d check to see that they are flat and go from there.  I guess you could mill the tops of the cylinder.  Base maybe another issue.

Offline MRieck

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Re: Removing Sleeves
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2020, 01:50:08 pm »
Went back and reread the start.  IMO I would not remove sleeves and reinstall without boring afterwards.   I suspect that the as the block cools, the holes will no longer be true.  In the case here, I'd send it back.  I'm not sure how Millenium managed to screw up one cylinder except that they maybe didn't oversize it enough before plating?  Aren't the cylinders honed to size after plating?  As far as blasted gasket surfaces, I''d check to see that they are flat and go from there.  I guess you could mill the tops of the cylinder.  Base maybe another issue.
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